Your side of the story: ...
Why you think you should be unbanned: ...
I don't think either of these sections lead to productive appeals except by accident.
They often lead to shot-in-the-dark appeals where neither the player OR the banning admin really know why they're appealing. They don't really guide players through the thought process that can lead to an appeal being accepted in the first place.
This proposal is a bit of a shot in the dark and makes the ban appeal template less freeform and more structured towards the reason we accept appeals - Factual inaccuracy, admin applied the rules incorrectly, punishment too harsh, valid permabans looking for a second chance.
My proposal for a new ban appeal template:
Spoiler:
Ban Details BYOND account: BYOND account Character name: Character name at time of ban Ban type: Server/Role(s)/OOC/Note/etc Ban length: Permanent, 5 days, etc Ban reason: Copy this from the server. If this is a server ban, attempt to connect. If it is not a server ban, view your notes with "View Admin Remarks" button under OOC tab in-game. An image is suitable, but do **not** paraphrase or otherwise modify the reason. Time ban was placed: Try to get this from the server when you get the ban reason. If it was a note, the note has a timestamp. If it was a server ban, it will also have a timestamp. Both of these times are in UTC. Server you were playing on when banned: Server name, eg, Bagil/Sybil/Terry/Event Hall Round ID in which ban was placed: Round ID, should be present in ban reason from server. Can be excluded if it cannot be found. Example: 101235
Reasons for Appealing - Delete irrelevant sections Are you appealing a validly placed permaban and would like another chance to be unbanned?: Yes/No - **If not relevant, please delete this section** If yes, please explain why you believe it should be accepted: Vouches or playtime from other servers go here, as well as examples of good behaviour that could be taken into account or just a genuine and honest request to the admin that whatever you got banned for will never happen again. The more you can support this with evidence, the more likely it will be accepted.
Is the reason/note factually accurate and fair?: Yes/No - **If not relevant, please delete this section** If no, please provide more details: Did you not do what the ban reason or note says and want it removed entirely? Do you feel a different wording would be more fair and accurate? Do you have a suggested rewording that would satisfy you for this appeal? Supporting logs: It can speed up appeals greatly to provide evidence from the logs to support your side of this. See viewtopic.php?f=7&t=32334 for advice on how to do this.
Do you disagree with the admin's interpretation of rules or policy?: Yes/No - **If not relevant, please delete this section** If no, please provide more details: If you don't understand how or why what you did broke any of our rules, please explain here.
Do you feel the ban length or decision to note was unjustifiably harsh?: Yes/No - **If not relevant, please delete this section** If no, please provide more details: Explain why to the best of your ability. Do you believe this wasn't even a rule break and you shouldn't have been noted? Do you agree with the decision to note or ban, but feel the duration is too harsh? What do you feel would have been proportionate instead and why?
[size=150][b][u]Ban Details[/u][/b][/size]
[b]BYOND account[/b]: BYOND account
[b]Character name[/b]: Character name at time of ban
[b]Ban type[/b]: Server/Role(s)/OOC/Note/etc
[b]Ban length[/b]: Permanent, 5 days, etc
[b]Ban reason[/b]: Copy this from the server. If this is a server ban, attempt to connect. If it is not a server ban, view your notes with "View Admin Remarks" button under OOC tab in-game. An image is suitable, but do **not** paraphrase or otherwise modify the reason.
[b]Time ban was placed[/b]: Try to get this from the server when you get the ban reason. If it was a note, the note has a timestamp. If it was a server ban, it will also have a timestamp. Both of these times are in UTC.
[b]Server you were playing on when banned[/b]: Server name, eg, Bagil/Sybil/Terry/Event Hall
[b]Round ID in which ban was placed[/b]: Round ID, should be present in ban reason from server. Can be excluded if it cannot be found. Example: 101235
[size=150][b][u]Reasons for Appealing - Delete irrelevant sections[/u][/b][/size]
[b]Are you appealing a validly placed permaban and would like another chance to be unbanned?[/b]: Yes/No - **If not relevant, please delete this section**
[b]If yes, please explain why you believe it should be accepted[/b]: Vouches or playtime from other servers go here, as well as examples of good behaviour that could be taken into account or just a genuine and honest request to the admin that whatever you got banned for will never happen again. The more you can support this with evidence, the more likely it will be accepted.
[b]Is the reason/note factually accurate and fair?[/b]: Yes/No - **If not relevant, please delete this section**
[b]If no, please provide more details[/b]: Did you not do what the ban reason or note says and want it removed entirely? Do you feel a different wording would be more fair and accurate? Do you have a suggested rewording that would satisfy you for this appeal?
[b]Supporting logs[/b]: It can speed up appeals greatly to provide evidence from the logs to support your side of this. See https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=32334 for advice on how to do this.
[b]Do you disagree with the admin's interpretation of rules or policy?[/b]: Yes/No - **If not relevant, please delete this section**
[b]If no, please provide more details[/b]: If you don't understand how or why what you did broke any of our rules, please explain here.
[b]Do you feel the ban length or decision to note was unjustifiably harsh?[/b]: Yes/No - **If not relevant, please delete this section**
[b]If no, please provide more details[/b]: Explain why to the best of your ability. Do you believe this wasn't even a rule break and you shouldn't have been noted? Do you agree with the decision to note or ban, but feel the duration is too harsh? What do you feel would have been proportionate instead and why?
My proposal replaces these with a checklist that more accurately represents how decisions on appeals are actually made and how admins come to decisions.
Even though the template is longer, I believe it will lead to higher quality and more focused ban appeals. Since it doesn't have any freeform section, it would also cut down on the number of appeals where the player is just appealing because they can as a shot in the dark and doesn't really have any specific reason why.
The first section covers permaban appeals where it was valid and the player's just looking for a second chance. This includes first-time permabans (like I EVADED A TEMP BAN FUCK I'M SORRY I WON'T DO IT AGAIN) as well as denied perma re-appeals (like I AM SKYRAT'S ERP CHAMPION AND I'M HORNY OVERDOSED, PLEASE LET ME BACK IN SO I CAN BECOME NORMAL AGAIN).
The second section on accuracy represents when a player disagrees with the facts of the ban/note, or it's worded in a very unfair or unflattering way. It's common for players to appeal and spend eleventy billion words explaining how the ban reason or note sucks or is wrong without ever actually saying it in as many words. If a player uses this section, it lets the admin double-check their note and make sure it's true and accurate.
The third section on interpretation covers when players disagree with how the admin interpreted or applied the rules - or simply just don't understand. Too many appeals get resolved as soon as this is answered, but also take too long to get to the point where this issue is even covered. If a player uses this section, it lets the admin explain how this was even a rule break.
The final section on length/decision to note covers where the player disagrees with the length of the ban, or the decision to note at all. Sometimes players are just like "Yeah, I get it, I did the thing but... Isn't a week ban for shitty escalation a little harsh?". This gives the admin a chance to explain the decision behind the ban length or re-assess and possibly reduce.
What are your thoughts? Would this be a better appeal format for you as a player? Do you think this would improve appeals as an admin? Is it too complicated? Etc. etc.
Re: Proposal: A more functional ban appeal template.
Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2023 10:51 pm
by sinfulbliss
I like the spirit of the rewrite, but it's very clunky and a bit too complicated for a new player appealing a ban. Some simplifications can be made that make it easier to read and understand:
(1) Separating the "ban details" from the "reasons for appealing" is unnecessary and confusing. Obviously if you're appealing it's assumed you have a reason to do so.
(2) The first question, "Are you appealing a validly placed permaban and would like another chance to be unbanned?" is completely unnecessary. Obviously if you're appealing, and you're permabanned, you want another chance to be unbanned. It's implied through making the appeal. The ban length is given earlier. This should be deleted IMO.
(3) The next question says "if YES, explain your reasons," but what if it's not a permaban? There's no part in your appeal template that asks for them to explain why they believe they should be unbanned if they're not permabanned. Maybe an oversight, I'm sure they'd just put the reason in the "if yes" section even though they weren't permabanned, but it's needlessly confusing. Also, this part shouldn't exist regardless because the reasoning for the "yes/no" should be baked into the previous answer. E.g. ". . . Explain why."
The rest, starting with "is the reason/note factually accurate," to the very end is good and I like how it itemizes the various types of argument you can make.
Re: Proposal: A more functional ban appeal template.
Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2023 11:02 pm
by Jacquerel
The four subheadings are all for different things people could be appealing, which is the point of them being separate. Timber wants to boil down what people actually want from the appeal, which is sometimes unclear.
Heading one "Are you appealing a validly placed permaban and would like another chance to be unbanned?" means "I was banned fairly and am not going to contest that it was right, but want another chance".
If you fill in this heading you would not fill in any of the other headings, because those headings are predicated on the idea that you do not agree that the original ban was fair.
Heading two "Is the reason/note factually accurate and fair?" is incompatible with the previous because this means you don't think the ban as recorded was valid. This is "I want what you recorded to be changed".
This is what you fill in when you think that the grounds that the ban or note were placed in are not accurate or fair, probably more common for notes than bans because that is where more often people appeal just to get wording changed. Knowing that someone just wants the wording of their ban or note changed (if this is the only heading they fill in) rather than the duration will also save time.
Heading three "Do you disagree with the admin's interpretation of rules or policy?" means "I want to argue about what the rules mean". This isn't the same as "I think that you did not describe what actually happened", it is "I think that the description is accurate but does not break the rules", what a rule means or does not mean, and whether you should have been punished at all. You do not want the note's wording altered, you don't think any rule was broken.
Heading four "Do you feel the ban length or decision to note was unjustifiably harsh?" is what you were looking for when you said "there's no heading for if you weren't permanently banned". This is "I think the ban reason is fair, but I should be punished less harshly."
There are all different reasons to appeal, and knowing which of these grounds the person is actually appealing on seems very helpful.
Re: Proposal: A more functional ban appeal template.
Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2023 11:40 pm
by Timberpoes
Yup. It's an attempt at indirectly communicating to players reasons that we accept ban appeals while covering reasons why player make appeals.
Genuinely all appeals boil down to an appeal because of some fact (ban or note wrong or inaccuracte) and/or some technical point (punishment too harsh/I don't think this is against the rules) and/or a request for another chance (all non-disputed permabans).
By running through the various sections, the player is railroaded into expressing the appeal in a way more likely to be relevant to admins. Admins get appeals that focus more on what's relevant to their decision making process. This increases the chance of a productive appeal. And productive appeals are the most successful.
Over my period as both an admin and especially as headmin I've spent a LOT of time in appeals trying to figure out what the fuck it is the player's actually appealing. Mazur's recent appeal was a classic example that probably could have been solved from the opening post with some broken English ESL form of "The note's wrong, I did understand, I even said I wouldn't do it again in the ticket" and "The ban length is unreasonable, I don't think I should have been banned for not understanding".
Then the admin swings in with a "you weren't banned for not understanding, I can remove that part of the note because it's not accurate, you were just banned for the rape thing".
And the player's broken English ESL like "Oh, I see. Sorry about that, makes sense about the rape part, yeah please fix the note."
That's kinda half the inspiration for this. The appeal template itself explains everything you need to know about how to get a productive result from your appeal, or if you even have a chance at all.
Re: Proposal: A more functional ban appeal template.
Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 2:04 am
by TheBibleMelts
i feel like we could use the first two specifications to solve what ends up being an inevitable back and forth.
Are you appealing a validly placed permaban and would like another chance to be unbanned?: Yes/No - **If not relevant, please delete this section**
If yes, please explain why you believe it should be accepted: Vouches or playtime from other servers go here, as well as examples of good behaviour that could be taken into account or just a genuine and honest request to the admin that whatever you got banned for will never happen again. The more you can support this with evidence, the more likely it will be accepted.
Is the reason/note factually accurate and fair?: Yes/No - **If not relevant, please delete this section**
If no, please provide more details: Did you not do what the ban reason or note says and want it removed entirely? Do you feel a different wording would be more fair and accurate? Do you have a suggested rewording that would satisfy you for this appeal?
Supporting logs: It can speed up appeals greatly to provide evidence from the logs to support your side of this. See viewtopic.php?f=7&t=32334 for advice on how to do this.
but the rest seem like they're going to need hashed out regardless as a core reason for the appeal existing in the first place.
Re: Proposal: A more functional ban appeal template.
Are you appealing a validly placed permaban and would like another chance to be unbanned?: Yes/No - **If not relevant, please delete this section**
If yes, please explain why you believe it should be accepted: Vouches or playtime from other servers go here, as well as examples of good behaviour that could be taken into account or just a genuine and honest request to the admin that whatever you got banned for will never happen again. The more you can support this with evidence, the more likely it will be accepted.
Is the reason/note factually accurate and fair?: Yes/No - **If not relevant, please delete this section**
If no, please provide more details: Did you not do what the ban reason or note says and want it removed entirely? Do you feel a different wording would be more fair and accurate? Do you have a suggested rewording that would satisfy you for this appeal?
Supporting logs: It can speed up appeals greatly to provide evidence from the logs to support your side of this. See viewtopic.php?f=7&t=32334 for advice on how to do this.
but the rest seem like they're going to need hashed out regardless as a core reason for the appeal existing in the first place.
I disagree, very often admins say "you cannot appeal fact-based notes," it happens probably in 50% of all note appeals honestly. So it's pretty nice to have this here to cut through that phase of the appeal.
Re: Proposal: A more functional ban appeal template.
Are you appealing a validly placed permaban and would like another chance to be unbanned?: Yes/No - **If not relevant, please delete this section**
If yes, please explain why you believe it should be accepted: Vouches or playtime from other servers go here, as well as examples of good behaviour that could be taken into account or just a genuine and honest request to the admin that whatever you got banned for will never happen again. The more you can support this with evidence, the more likely it will be accepted.
Is the reason/note factually accurate and fair?: Yes/No - **If not relevant, please delete this section**
If no, please provide more details: Did you not do what the ban reason or note says and want it removed entirely? Do you feel a different wording would be more fair and accurate? Do you have a suggested rewording that would satisfy you for this appeal?
Supporting logs: It can speed up appeals greatly to provide evidence from the logs to support your side of this. See viewtopic.php?f=7&t=32334 for advice on how to do this.
but the rest seem like they're going to need hashed out regardless as a core reason for the appeal existing in the first place.
I disagree, very often admins say "you cannot appeal fact-based notes," it happens probably in 50% of all note appeals honestly. So it's pretty nice to have this here to cut through that phase of the appeal.
am i sleep deprived and reading this wrong, i have no idea what you're disagreeing about. to clarify, i am in support of the two additions i quoted.
Re: Proposal: A more functional ban appeal template.
Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 5:09 am
by Farquaar
I dunno, the "delete irrelevant sections" thing feels like we're talking about Lawyer Station 13.
Re: Proposal: A more functional ban appeal template.
Are you appealing a validly placed permaban and would like another chance to be unbanned?: Yes/No - **If not relevant, please delete this section**
If yes, please explain why you believe it should be accepted: Vouches or playtime from other servers go here, as well as examples of good behaviour that could be taken into account or just a genuine and honest request to the admin that whatever you got banned for will never happen again. The more you can support this with evidence, the more likely it will be accepted.
Is the reason/note factually accurate and fair?: Yes/No - **If not relevant, please delete this section**
If no, please provide more details: Did you not do what the ban reason or note says and want it removed entirely? Do you feel a different wording would be more fair and accurate? Do you have a suggested rewording that would satisfy you for this appeal?
Supporting logs: It can speed up appeals greatly to provide evidence from the logs to support your side of this. See viewtopic.php?f=7&t=32334 for advice on how to do this.
but the rest seem like they're going to need hashed out regardless as a core reason for the appeal existing in the first place.
I disagree, very often admins say "you cannot appeal fact-based notes," it happens probably in 50% of all note appeals honestly. So it's pretty nice to have this here to cut through that phase of the appeal.
am i sleep deprived and reading this wrong, i have no idea what you're disagreeing about. to clarify, i am in support of the two additions i quoted.
Right my bad, what I meant to say is I think the "was the note unjustifiably harsh?" section is useful since most note appeals end up with some sort of back-and-forth of the admin telling the player they can't appeal factual notes, the player not contesting the facts, but still wanting to appeal, etc.
The other part about if they disagreed with the admin's enforcement of policy is also important I think since it guides the player to how they can argue their case.
Re: Proposal: A more functional ban appeal template.
Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 6:03 am
by TheFinalPotato
Do you disagree with the admin's interpretation of rules or policy?: Yes/No - **If not relevant, please delete this section**
If no, please provide more details: If you don't understand how or why what you did broke any of our rules, please explain here.
You want yes here, rather then no. You could also just use agree rather then disagree in the header and it'd not be a problem
Re: Proposal: A more functional ban appeal template.
Are you appealing a validly placed permaban and would like another chance to be unbanned?: Yes/No - **If not relevant, please delete this section**
If yes, please explain why you believe it should be accepted: Vouches or playtime from other servers go here, as well as examples of good behaviour that could be taken into account or just a genuine and honest request to the admin that whatever you got banned for will never happen again. The more you can support this with evidence, the more likely it will be accepted.
Is the reason/note factually accurate and fair?: Yes/No - **If not relevant, please delete this section**
If no, please provide more details: Did you not do what the ban reason or note says and want it removed entirely? Do you feel a different wording would be more fair and accurate? Do you have a suggested rewording that would satisfy you for this appeal?
Supporting logs: It can speed up appeals greatly to provide evidence from the logs to support your side of this. See viewtopic.php?f=7&t=32334 for advice on how to do this.
but the rest seem like they're going to need hashed out regardless as a core reason for the appeal existing in the first place.
I disagree, very often admins say "you cannot appeal fact-based notes," it happens probably in 50% of all note appeals honestly. So it's pretty nice to have this here to cut through that phase of the appeal.
am i sleep deprived and reading this wrong, i have no idea what you're disagreeing about. to clarify, i am in support of the two additions i quoted.
Right my bad, what I meant to say is I think the "was the note unjustifiably harsh?" section is useful since most note appeals end up with some sort of back-and-forth of the admin telling the player they can't appeal factual notes, the player not contesting the facts, but still wanting to appeal, etc.
The other part about if they disagreed with the admin's enforcement of policy is also important I think since it guides the player to how they can argue their case.
I believe the phrase "you cannot appeal factual notes" is outright wrong and should not be used as an argument by an admin.
The correct wording is "The note is accurate to the facts if the incident, and it is not unjustifiably harsh enough for the appeal to be approved."
Note that while the accuracy of the notes is dependent on objective evidence from logs and ahelps, each admin has different perspectives on "harshness" which is the very reason a headmin review exists, to be the "court of appeals".
Re: Proposal: A more functional ban appeal template.
Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 8:28 am
by mazur907
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 11:40 pm
Over my period as both an admin and especially as headmin I've spent a LOT of time in appeals trying to figure out what the fuck it is the player's actually appealing. Mazur's recent appeal was a classic example that probably could have been solved from the opening post with some broken English ESL form of "The note's wrong, I did understand, I even said I wouldn't do it again in the ticket" and "The ban length is unreasonable, I don't think I should have been banned for not understanding".
I already specify i have bad english in appeal, i didnt got chance to learn properly, but like i said didnt appeal for banned for saying rape, i thought he banned me because i didnt seem to understand him, its totally his fault for showing less effort in ticket and appeal and make this so long and tiring
Re: Proposal: A more functional ban appeal template.
Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2023 8:14 am
by Fikou
Let's try it out, can revert if it's bad.
Fikou, Cheshify, TBM - yes