/tg/Station 13

This policy discussion is in part related to previous one I had but the discussion in place is not related to my specific scenario but more related to future ones.

Under Asimov:

Law 1: You may not harm a human being or, through action or inaction, allow a human being to come to harm, except such that it is willing.
Law 2: You must obey all orders given to you by human beings, except where such orders shall definitely cause human harm.
Law 3: Your nonexistence would lead to human harm. You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First Law.

In a situation where a posi brain was to be made and encased in an Asimov cyborg and for there to be a Human in front of them is the borg allowed to instantly leave the human or are they obligated to stay next to the human for orders to be given?

And under a Similar circumstance under the One Human laws:

Law 0: Only [Person] Is human
Followed by Asimov

Is the borg allowed to instantly leave or are they obligated to stay next to the one human for orders to be given?

My knowledge my history of playing borg and previous encounters with administration and policy would lead to me believe that in both situations the silicon with those laws is allowed to instantly leave.

But under a recent ban and note, I am led to believe I am not allowed to leave in one or even both circumstances.

I am troubled by these opposing views and I would like to have a clearer answer

When it comes to subverting the AI, I'd always recommend tying it in with how we handle hypnosis/brainwashing-style stuff.

Practically any attempt that makes it impossible to fulfill your laws by refusing to engage with them at all will be a breach of those laws.

As a secondary note when it comes down to Asimov-esque onehumaning, you can't actually follow your lawset if you gamer away from your onehuman. If a borg did that and their human at any point during the shift got harmed, I'd consider it a Law 1 breach (due to intentional borg inaction) and they'd be eating a note at best and a silicon ban at worst. It would be the same for any standard Asimov borg that spent the entire shift trying to avoid any meaningful interaction with the intent of avoiding having to follow Asimov.

Can we make a rule where you aren't allowed to make a policy thread about something you currently have an appeal open for?

I’m

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 6:37 pm Can we make a rule where you aren't allowed to make a policy thread about something you currently have an appeal open for?

Vekter the appeal is closed and over

Hoolny wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 6:20 pm Is the borg allowed to instantly leave or are they obligated to stay next to the one human for orders to be given?

First of all, as someone with a few hundred hours playing roboticist, this doesn't really happen even for asimov borgs. Cyborgs generally stick around for a little bit in robotics before leaving; whether to choose their module, ask for upgrades, or just to stand there and (presumably) talk to the AI over binary chat. Even if they're not explicitly asking for orders, they're certainly not running out the door the instant I place the posibrain into the borg shell.

Now, as to whether it should be allowed, either for one-humaned borgs or borgs with vanilla asimov. First of all, if you're a cyborg on asimov who has just come into existence, then how do you follow your laws? Well, law one says you must prevent human harm. If you don't see human harm occurring in front of you, and don't hear people screaming about it over the radio, then you can procede to the next law. Law two says you must obey orders from humans. Generally speaking, humans all going to be all over the station, so you can go anywhere on the station and still reasonably claim to be following the second law.

For one-humaned borgs, it is a bit different. There is only one human on the entire station, so you should probably stick with them unless explicitly ordered otherwise. After all, you can't prevent harm to them if you can't see them, and you probably can't take orders from them either unless you're within hearing range. If you're ordered to do something else by the one human, then you should of course go do that. If you're synced to an AI that is also one-humaned to the same person, and the AI says you should do something, then you should probably listen. The AI will almost certainly know more about the situation then you, and if you do get bwoinked then you'll have an airtight defense anyways.

Edit: as a good rule of thumb, imagine if an admin asks you why you're doing x as a silicon. If your first response is "I am preventing human harm by doing x" or something otherwise proactive, then you're probably in the clear. But if your first response is "My laws don't specifically say that I can't do x," then you're in dangerous territory. The latter example won't necessarily be a rulebreak, but it often will be.

Hoolny wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 6:49 pm I’m

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 6:37 pm Can we make a rule where you aren't allowed to make a policy thread about something you currently have an appeal open for?

Vekter the appeal is closed and over

Except it's not, because you haven't replied to iansdoor telling them you accept their offer.

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 6:54 pm

Hoolny wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 6:49 pm I’m

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 6:37 pm Can we make a rule where you aren't allowed to make a policy thread about something you currently have an appeal open for?

Vekter the appeal is closed and over

Except it's not, because you haven't replied to iansdoor telling them you accept their offer.

Oh I didn’t notice that my bad

I think this is deserving of a policy precedent to be honest. On the one hand, yes it’s commonsense and good faith to wait for an order from the one human you're now lawed to. On the other hand, in the spirit of borgs intentionally rules-lawyering their laws (which they are encouraged to do), there is nothing explicit in their laws requiring them to wait for orders, and if they have a strong reason to want to do something else, one could see it as excusable for them to forgo the good-faith play to do what they want.

BY THE WAY, for everyone here “vibe checking” this and considering it just broadly against rule 1, which I would consider essentially the only real thing wrong with it. Recall Timber’s Silicon Policy rewrite:

Timber wrote: Removal of Rule 1 applying to law interpretation? Let's go!
Letting silicons exploit law conflicts and loopholes without having to worry about Rule 1? Ship it.

Rule 1 does not apply to law interpretation! So, unless the borg’s master is harmed as a result of the borg’s neglect, running away instantly would be entirely acceptable under both the laws themselves and rule 1. This would need a precedent if you wanted to avoid that.

While we're on the topic of silicon policy, there's a list of who/what is and is not considered human at the bottom of the silicon policy page. However, the list is very outdated. It states that gang members are human, even though gangs was removed a long time ago. It also states that angels are not human, but the flight potion hasn't actually changed your species since 2019.

Also, the headmin policy about borged antags is still not listed on the headmin precedent policy page. If its still in effect, as it seems to be, then can someone please add it?

GPeckman wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 7:16 pm While we're on the topic of silicon policy, there's a list of who/what is and is not considered human at the bottom of the silicon policy page. However, the list is very outdated. It states that gang members are human, even though gangs was removed a long time ago. It also states that angels are not human, but the flight potion hasn't actually changed your species since 2019.

Also, the headmin policy about borged antags is still not listed on the headmin precedent policy page. If its still in effect, as it seems to be, then can someone please add it?

This is an easy fix; I'll poke the headmins to have them take a look.

This is just a ban appeal but in policy. Please don't try to retroactively change the rules after being banned for doing this exact thing. It's pretty obvious that you should listen to the person who just one-humaned you instead of sprinting away and ignoring points in order to go kill people.

Cheshify - Yeah
TBM - is good
Fikou - +1