/tg/Station 13

A week or so ago I had a round where a mime ran up to my brig and was pulling a abandoned crate, batoned them when they got into the brig doors. An admin later bwoinks me about how it was probably not the best response

Does the crew know that the abandoned crates detonate and should they be treated as a explosive device automatically?

Is the issue whether you should have batonned the Mime? Because anyone entering brig without access is getting batonned, not sure what the admin was smoking.

E: I get the policy question now also. I’d say they shouldn’t be treated as explosives administratively unless it’s clear the player is intentionally trying to use them as such (i.e. damaging them).

We allow players to recognize all other items, don't see why this should be an exception

Mime shouldn't have been in the brig so non lethally removing them is valid

EmpressMaia wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 4:12 am A week or so ago I had a round where a mime ran up to my brig and was pulling a abandoned crate, batoned them when they got into the brig doors. An admin later bwoinks me about how it was probably not the best response

Does the crew know that the abandoned crates detonate and should they be treated as a explosive device automatically?

It is entirely the best response you can instantly detonate it on right click.

This is the exact same as walking into brig while dragging a welding tank while holding a lit welding tool, similar explosion size, same amount of time to activate.

Yeah why is the mime running into brig bro

I feel like context is missing but some random running into brig with a dangerous item like an exploding crate is absolutely grounds to baton/tase 'em for safety?

I suspect they weren't bwoinking you because of the abandoned crate but there's a few policy threads lately which kind of smell of admin complaints via a backdoor.

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 12:06 pm I suspect they weren't bwoinking you because of the abandoned crate but there's a few policy threads lately which kind of smell of admin complaints via a backdoor.

Im not Mad at the admin

I looked at the individual situation itself and it doesn't seem too relevant to this specific question, so let's focus more on the actual question than the situation that led to it.

I feel like it's not unreasonable for crewmembers to start out knowing that the weird locked crates in maintenance explode if you enter the wrong code. We allow players to know about everything else item-wise by default; I see no issue with this being the same.

Vekter wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 3:26 pmI feel like it's not unreasonable for crewmembers to start out knowing that the weird locked crates in maintenance explode if you enter the wrong code. We allow players to know about everything else item-wise by default; I see no issue with this being the same.

I don’t think the question is one about metaknowledge “are players allowed to know this,” it’s “are players expected to know this” or “should we treat these items like explosives for the purposes of administration” (these two questions are essentially the same I think).

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 4:02 pm

Vekter wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 3:26 pmI feel like it's not unreasonable for crewmembers to start out knowing that the weird locked crates in maintenance explode if you enter the wrong code. We allow players to know about everything else item-wise by default; I see no issue with this being the same.

I don’t think the question is one about metaknowledge “are players allowed to know this,” it’s “are players expected to know this” or “should we treat these items like explosives for the purposes of administration” (these two questions are essentially the same I think).

Yes this is what I was trying to say

Characters are otherwise allowed to know everything about ingame mechanics

No further policy is needed. You know it can explode. You know it has purposes other than exploding. Act in good faith around it and you'll be fine.

i think it's reasonable to expect players to use their own best judgement based on the context of the situation - i personally don't like the idea that we should "expect" players to have this level of game knowledge and dumpster them if they don't, but i also don't expect players to have to play dumb as they watch someone drag a potential explosive into a secure area.

if they were using it like a crate, then it could be said that they don't know it's explosive or, more importantly, the fact that it's explosive isn't the main reason it's being used so to clobber them and treat them like they're handling a portable nuclear bomb would be silly.

however in something like the situation at hand (which i haven't looked up at all) i think it's reasonable to think this person may be trying to blow shit up.

If the premise of the topic is "Should this item which can explode always be treated as if it is a bomb?" the answer is clearly no because it isn't a bomb and has non-explosive purposes. It's more like a welding tank. Sometimes there are perfectly normal reasons to be dragging a welding tank around and you should be immediately tackling people with welding tanks and beating them up on the grounds that they have a bomb.

If someone is clearly going to use it to try and explode something then it's a bomb. If they aren't then it isn't. If someone blows it up in the middle of a crowd of people, even if it was by accident, the results are on them.

EmpressMaia wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 4:21 pm

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 4:02 pm

Vekter wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 3:26 pmI feel like it's not unreasonable for crewmembers to start out knowing that the weird locked crates in maintenance explode if you enter the wrong code. We allow players to know about everything else item-wise by default; I see no issue with this being the same.

I don’t think the question is one about metaknowledge “are players allowed to know this,” it’s “are players expected to know this” or “should we treat these items like explosives for the purposes of administration” (these two questions are essentially the same I think).

Yes this is what I was trying to say

Then this thread's title is wildly inaccurate.

I know of the situation as I had to administrate part of it. And personally, I too would assume that someone choosing the use specifically the rare, volatile abandoned crate over any normal crate they found in maint may have more specific purposes for the crate if they are pulling it into a very popular location to bomb.

It is enough of a consideration that what prompted me to makw them so expensive to purchase from cargo was less because I was worried about them no longer being scarce, but because they're an extremely simple tool for bombing the station. I would absolutely treat them with kid gloves ic, and treat them as bombs administratively because they're literally bombs you need to defuse to get to goods inside. Or I would say that if solving the puzzle defused the bomb. Even a solved abandoned crate is trapped. And hitting it with any force sets it off.

Until unlocking the crate defuses the bomb, treat them as bombs. And pull them into high security areas at your own risk.

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 5:02 pm If the premise of the topic is "Should this item which can explode always be treated as if it is a bomb?" the answer is clearly no because it isn't a bomb and has non-explosive purposes. It's more like a welding tank. Sometimes there are perfectly normal reasons to be dragging a welding tank around and you should be immediately tackling people with welding tanks and beating them up on the grounds that they have a bomb.

If someone is clearly going to use it to try and explode something then it's a bomb. If they aren't then it isn't. If someone blows it up in the middle of a crowd of people, even if it was by accident, the results are on them.

I think the difference is that it's pretty obvious when someone is planning to bomb with a welding tank since they need to have a welder out and ignited.

Okay so I pondered on this a bit more. I don't have terribly strong opinions on this one because most people know that these things explode if you solve them wrong, so if you bring it into a high security area, you're kind of opening yourself up to scrutiny. I don't think it should be treated like carrying a tank and a welding tool, but if you're walking into the brig with one and an officer stuns you to take it from you, I'm hitting "IC Issue".

I have a few notes for everyone else when deciding their feelings on the matter:

1) Crates can be solved by using a multi-tool on them. It's a puzzle, but you can open them and they do have loot inside, so there's a valid reason to be tugging one along other than "makeshift bomb".
2) If a crate explodes, it does so with 1 heavy and 5 light, which isn't a tiny explosion but isn't massive either. It's relatively equivalent to setting off a welding fuel tank.

chocolate_bickie wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 7:11 pm

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 5:02 pm If the premise of the topic is "Should this item which can explode always be treated as if it is a bomb?" the answer is clearly no because it isn't a bomb and has non-explosive purposes. It's more like a welding tank. Sometimes there are perfectly normal reasons to be dragging a welding tank around and you should be immediately tackling people with welding tanks and beating them up on the grounds that they have a bomb.

If someone is clearly going to use it to try and explode something then it's a bomb. If they aren't then it isn't. If someone blows it up in the middle of a crowd of people, even if it was by accident, the results are on them.

I think the difference is that it's pretty obvious when someone is planning to bomb with a welding tank since they need to have a welder out and ignited.

Either of them are innocuous in plenty of circumstances and very suspicious when brought into the brig

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 8:54 pm

chocolate_bickie wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 7:11 pm

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 5:02 pm If the premise of the topic is "Should this item which can explode always be treated as if it is a bomb?" the answer is clearly no because it isn't a bomb and has non-explosive purposes. It's more like a welding tank. Sometimes there are perfectly normal reasons to be dragging a welding tank around and you should be immediately tackling people with welding tanks and beating them up on the grounds that they have a bomb.

If someone is clearly going to use it to try and explode something then it's a bomb. If they aren't then it isn't. If someone blows it up in the middle of a crowd of people, even if it was by accident, the results are on them.

I think the difference is that it's pretty obvious when someone is planning to bomb with a welding tank since they need to have a welder out and ignited.

Either of them are innocuous in plenty of circumstances and very suspicious when brought into the brig

The issue is the context surrounding the matter. The brig is a popular place to try and destroy, both for antags and for greyshirts who are gaming a little too hard.

Vekter wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 9:44 pm

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 8:54 pm

chocolate_bickie wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 7:11 pm

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 5:02 pm If the premise of the topic is "Should this item which can explode always be treated as if it is a bomb?" the answer is clearly no because it isn't a bomb and has non-explosive purposes. It's more like a welding tank. Sometimes there are perfectly normal reasons to be dragging a welding tank around and you should be immediately tackling people with welding tanks and beating them up on the grounds that they have a bomb.

If someone is clearly going to use it to try and explode something then it's a bomb. If they aren't then it isn't. If someone blows it up in the middle of a crowd of people, even if it was by accident, the results are on them.

I think the difference is that it's pretty obvious when someone is planning to bomb with a welding tank since they need to have a welder out and ignited.

Either of them are innocuous in plenty of circumstances and very suspicious when brought into the brig

The issue is the context surrounding the matter. The brig is a popular place to try and destroy, both for antags and for greyshirts who are gaming a little too hard.

Yes that is why I said either of them are innocuous in plenty of circumstances and very suspicious when brought into the brig

you are allowed to know that abandoned crates can turn into makeshift explosives, but the context of who is dragging it and where it is being dragged should be applied in any given situation to determine how you react to it

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