/tg/Station 13

New template is dogshit, find it more confusing and complicated than the old one without much real gain. Haven't really seen it help players either just complexity for no point

Imo new template is really hard to work with for people who have poor English knowledge, and they are already at a disadvantage when appealing. Think of the esls, keep it simple.

Bro I would like to think that I have a good grasp and still find it incredibly difficult to work... in my recent appeal it really confused me on what sections to keep and oh is this thing repeating something from earlier? Feels very obtuse

plus oned

+1 needs to be simple

I dont remember what the old one looked like can we get a comparison in chat

Not-Dorsidarf wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 2:36 pm I dont remember what the old one looked like can we get a comparison in chat

Old (?) New

at this rate the next template will come with a place to sign and free legal counsel if you can't afford your own

Skill issue.

What you probably missed were sections entitled "Do you think this will be the death of tgstation? If yes, please expand on your anti-admin platform here and how all rule breaks should be IC:" and "Do you play on Terry? If yes, bullshit us on how Terry culture means the rules are different here:"

Unfortunately, neither of those two are relevant to appeals so they never made it off the cutting room floor.

It can definitely be tweaked or reverted, I'm not really fussed. All I wanted was an appeal template that actually addresses the reasons admins ban players and accept appeals.

My view on the current template is successfully filling it out drastically increases your chances of being unbanned or having the punishment reduced, because it guides players down the various paths where bans get overturned:

Valid ban, pls reduce ban, I be good now
Admin got the facts wrong, pls remove ban
Admin got the rules wrong, pls remove ban

That's really what it comes down to. An appeal template that maximised the chances of successful and productive appeals.

I have a strong feeling that anyone whom is unable to fill it out isn't likely to have an appeal worth making.

you guys should just accept honest apologies as better tender than someone playing legalese grab ass and word games is more my sentiment

it's not like it's a huge deal i was kind of being tongue in cheek, but i just believe in people!

also i'm not european i don't play on terry checkmate

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 4:09 pm Skill issue.

What you probably missed were sections entitled "Do you think this will be the death of tgstation? If yes, please expand on your anti-admin platform here and how all rule breaks should be IC:" and "Do you play on Terry? If yes, bullshit us on how Terry culture means the rules are different here:"

Unfortunately, neither of those two are relevant to appeals so they never made it off the cutting room floor.

It can definitely be tweaked or reverted, I'm not really fussed. All I wanted was an appeal template that actually addresses the reasons admins ban players and accept appeals.

My view on the current template is successfully filling it out drastically increases your chances of being unbanned or having the punishment reduced, because it guides players down the various paths where bans get overturned:

Valid ban, pls reduce ban, I be good now
Admin got the facts wrong, pls remove ban
Admin got the rules wrong, pls remove ban

That's really what it comes down to. An appeal template that maximised the chances of successful and productive appeals.

I have a strong feeling that anyone whom is unable to fill it out isn't likely to have an appeal worth making.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with this statement. It might come off like that to you- as you are the one who tweaked it- but for example, when I was appealing I was scratching my head. "Do I repeat myself here? But I already did this here" It adds a level of unnecessary complexity to the process, maybe if there was a way to tone it down a bit yeah sure, but I certainly have spoken to other appealers who also felt confused by it.

The way it's presented is just...confusing really. You forget that a lot of us do not speak English as a first language so when you throw done something that seems really complex it does fuck with a lot of ppl. I think in its current form it's a bit too confusing because, at least in my experience, it felt like I would have repeated myself and bounced back to earlier statements which isn't great

massa wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 4:44 pm you guys should just accept honest apologies as better tender than someone playing legalese grab ass and word games is more my sentiment

people don't post honest apologies in appeals before or after the change in template, or we would have a lot fewer peanut threads
ban appeals are for insisting you did nothing wrong

kieth4 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 2:47 pm

Not-Dorsidarf wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 2:36 pm I dont remember what the old one looked like can we get a comparison in chat

This is not what the ban appeal template looks like, this is what a ban appeal made by a mime looks like


THIS is what the ban appeal template actually looks like (after being copypasted from the little codebox it lives in into your appeal)

Not-Dorsidarf wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 5:27 pm

kieth4 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 2:47 pm

Not-Dorsidarf wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 2:36 pm I dont remember what the old one looked like can we get a comparison in chat

This is not what the ban appeal template looks like, this is what a ban appeal made by a mime looks like


THIS is what the ban appeal template actually looks like (after being copypasted from the little codebox it lives in into your appeal)

Thanks for grabbing it, I still find it more confusing and preferred the older one. I know quite a few broskis who do too.

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 5:25 pm

massa wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 4:44 pm you guys should just accept honest apologies as better tender than someone playing legalese grab ass and word games is more my sentiment

people don't post honest apologies in appeals before or after the change in template, or we would have a lot fewer peanut threads
ban appeals are for insisting you did nothing wrong

this is probably because apologizing is "admitting guilt" and the admin will just uphold/maintain the ban and you're just fucked gg ez, but people who rules lawyer like motherfuckers for years scoot by

that's kind of not awesome, is it? this is a common sentiment people say when talking about appealing.

massa wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 5:35 pm

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 5:25 pm

massa wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 4:44 pm you guys should just accept honest apologies as better tender than someone playing legalese grab ass and word games is more my sentiment

people don't post honest apologies in appeals before or after the change in template, or we would have a lot fewer peanut threads
ban appeals are for insisting you did nothing wrong

this is probably because apologizing is "admitting guilt" and the admin will just uphold/maintain the ban, but people who rules lawyer like motherfuckers for years scoot by

If more people posted "you're right I fucked up and I won't do it again" I think a lot of note and ban appeals would be a lot smoother and resolved well for the appealer actually. That is all an admin generally wants, they just don't do it.
The new template makes an attempt to sort of prompt people to do this with headings for "do you actually disagree with why this was placed or just think it was too extreme?" but you can only lead a horse to water.

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 5:37 pm If more people posted "you're right I fucked up and I won't do it again" I think a lot of note and ban appeals would be a lot smoother and resolved well for the appealer actually. That is all an admin generally wants, they just don't do it.

this is how you stay banned

resolving to not do it again or just be better is also the bare minimum, not the deciding factor

massa wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 5:39 pm resolving to not do it again or just be better is also the bare minimum, not the deciding factor

in that case I think we do need an appeal template rewrite because literally nobody meets your bare minimum

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 5:43 pm

massa wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 5:39 pm resolving to not do it again or just be better is also the bare minimum, not the deciding factor

in that case I think we do need an appeal template rewrite because literally nobody meets your bare minimum

if you apologize for something without the intention to not do it again that's rather silly

usually ban appeals are complex, nuanced situations involving flawed humans, their emotions, and chaos. not so binary.

all good!

im going out on a limb and saying the reason people dont go “sorry, wont happen again” in ban appeals is because of survivorship bias. if an admin thinks u wont do it again they probably wont note you (this has happened to me more than a few times where i dont get a note because the admin thinks i wont do it again). if you think ur ban is justified (higher chance of apologizing) you also probably won’t bother appealing it

anyways, old template was simpler and i think the new one is too much mumbo jumbo. i think “your side of the story” was extremely important because it can clear up some misconceptions. you’d be surprised by how many admins ban without even asking the person’s side of the story. not that it’s a lot- but more than 0 should always come as a surprise. idk why the fuck that part was removed

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 5:37 pm

massa wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 5:35 pm

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 5:25 pm

massa wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 4:44 pm you guys should just accept honest apologies as better tender than someone playing legalese grab ass and word games is more my sentiment

people don't post honest apologies in appeals before or after the change in template, or we would have a lot fewer peanut threads
ban appeals are for insisting you did nothing wrong

this is probably because apologizing is "admitting guilt" and the admin will just uphold/maintain the ban, but people who rules lawyer like motherfuckers for years scoot by

If more people posted "you're right I fucked up and I won't do it again" I think a lot of note and ban appeals would be a lot smoother and resolved well for the appealer actually. That is all an admin generally wants, they just don't do it.
The new template makes an attempt to sort of prompt people to do this with headings for "do you actually disagree with why this was placed or just think it was too extreme?" but you can only lead a horse to water.

I appreciate the intention behind the changes, and maybe the original template has its own flaws but when actually writing the ban appeal it feels weird. The questions somewhat make you repeat yourself because you might mention something in section 1 and then because of the nature of writing a ban appeal repeat it in section 2 which doesn't feel great.

I'm not sure why this is! It might be the idea of the appeal trying to push people in a certain way which feels like it creates some issues. A lot of people are not used to filling out such a strict format and it doesn't entirely feel like it's easy to explain the intricacies of stuff in the format.

Sometimes a yes/no is just too binary to answer the question to one's liking.

Saying "you can lead a horse to water" completely misses the intricacies and acts as if this is a super simplistic process where you just fill it out ez pz which often isn't the case. This is especially true when you factor in the high amount of second language English speakers or others who struggle with these kinds of structures

Striders13 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 7:40 am Imo new template is really hard to work with for people who have poor English knowledge, and they are already at a disadvantage when appealing. Think of the esls, keep it simple.

I agree for this reason right here. Calling it skill issue is pretty cringe.

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 4:09 pm What you probably missed were sections entitled "Do you think this will be the death of tgstation? If yes, please expand on your anti-admin platform here and how all rule breaks should be IC:" and "Do you play on Terry? If yes, bullshit us on how Terry culture means the rules are different here:"

What I personally missed was the ban appeals template looking like it was written for a normal person and not for someone who’s sunk dozens of hours into hammering down the finer niceties of policy lawyering.

Timberpoes wrote:I have a strong feeling that anyone whom[sic] is unable to fill it out isn't likely to have an appeal worth making.

Or, more likely: they take one look at the massive form in front of them and give up. Most people don’t appeal to begin with because this is a space game and who cares? But those who do will be intimidated by a template that doesn’t quite make cohesive sense even if you have a PhD in rules lawyering.

Just as a quick example: Suppose you are appealing an invalidly placed permaban, or a temp ban. So you say “No” to the “are you appealing a validly placed permaban” question. Then the next question “If yes,” wouldn’t apply. And now there is literally no place in the ban appeal template to put your ban appeal! Because it doesn’t have a section for invalid permabans, or any other bans. There is no “why are you appealing?” section or “your story” section. No place for them to actually tell their side and make a holistic plea, just what questions you personally have isolated to matter most, as if they have any concept of how these questions are usually answered and usually go. It makes absolutely zero sense from an “SS13 Layman” viewpoint, and as we have already seen over and over since its adoption, people have either half-assed it or ignored the template entirely; either due to confusion or because they correctly assume it makes more sense to just write it themselves.

If you agree with the note left behind and feel it's accurate and fair, and also agree with how the admin interpreted the rules, and also don't think any aspect of it was unjustifiably harsh including the length or decision to note/ban at all...?

Then you don't have an appeal and you probably shouldn't appeal at that point.

Such an empty appeal would probably just be made with the goal of wasting the admin/headmin team's time or trying to burn them out into giving a lower duration just to get you to go away. Which none of us want because it distracts admins and headmins away from dealing with appeals that actually matter.

A big goal of the template was to guide players down the routes where they can successfully appeal something. Struggling to find a spot in the template for what you want to say is a sign that you probably shouldn't be appealing, because there's a spot for disagreeing with the facts, a spot for disagreeing with how the admin interpreted the rules AND a spot for disagreeing with the length. If you agree with all three, why are you appealing?

Discouraging appeals just for the sake of making one was a feature of my proposed changes.

If you're talking about appeals in the style of "I was validly banned; it wasn't a perma and will expire; the note is accurate and fair; the admin didn't fuck up the rules; the length isn't unjustifiably harsh; but I hope that by wasting everyone's time I can get a reduction anyway" hail mary throws then that can definitely just be reworded into the first question:
Are you appealing a validly placed permaban ban and would like another chance to be unbanned the length reduced?

At least that way everyone knows the appeal is a plea to mercy from the outset instead of having to jump through hoops.

The issue is that you're moving the burden from the admins (volunteers who were trained and steeped in the rules, taught how to handle ban appeals, know precedents, etc) to random players who may have played like 20 hours and are now being thrust into the forums with a 3-paragraph long ban appeal form that asks very specific questions.

As a new player I wouldn't be able to make a very good case for myself on any of these grounds, because I'm not thinking about the game in those terms. What I'd be able to do, though, is tell my side of the story, what happened in my shoes at the time, why I did the things I did. And why those things shouldn't result in a ban. Then the admin could decide whether that checks out with the ban's factual accuracy, fairness, policies, and everything else, according to the (hopefully) hundreds of hours experience in the game and adminning they have.

That is how it should be and that's how it works best. Frankly it doesn't matter if it makes sense to you, or to me, or to the vast majority of the people posting on Policy. It matters if it's serviceable to the average joe playing the game and catching themselves in a ban or note. I think we have seen good evidence it does not.

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 6:11 pm uwu

you're forgetting that appeals, regardless of their content, give a chance for admin to look into the ban again. My very first appeal was admin noting me for "harming" a human when the action I did was non-harmful. I don't think I tried to argue that, but the admin looked into it and removed the note anyway.
If the appeal had such an intimidating template I might have not bothered appealing.

literally all of my bans got lifted because I promised not to do it again

I haven't really had an experience having someone use it be improved or made worse by it. I get the idea behind it but I do worry that it's going to be confusing for people who are ESL. Like I don't think it's inherently a bad template, I think there's good ideas with having it, but it needs to be easy for people to understand if they didn't grow up knowing English. If it's so complex that people are balking at appealing something because we've made the process hard, I think we might need to take another look at it.

I accept that the old template was much easier to post an appeal with, but the quality of those appeals were very low unless the player was advanced. Even if it's not the current one, I still strongly believe a more guided appeal template increases the chance of shorter and more effective appeals.

A guided template that walks players through explaining what they disagree with should be easier for ESL players to use in creating a more effective appeal that will actually work.

My honest experience is ESL players lose out harder on that template purely because it doesn't guide them through the process and expects them to just be able to magic up the words they never had in the first place. I believe the new template gives them the words and asks them to add the context around those words.

I don't think the template has to stay how it is, but I do think there's massive benefits for players and admins with a proper appeal template that actually guides players through using the reasons that admins accept appeals.

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 1:42 am 2 many words

I agree that a more guiding hand could prove valuable but the current template causes a decent amount of hesitance and difficulty. Dumbing it down could prove useful to a plethora of players.

Gonna see if I can have a go doing this later when I'm back from the gym. You can maybe look it over with your nerd emoji glasses to see what I miss

kieth4 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 4:29 pm

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 1:42 am 2 many words

2 few words

Sounds good to me.

If the goal is a sort of hybrid I think it can be easily accomplished by first of all adding back the “Your side of the story” section, just so people can get their thoughts and the situation on paper in a simple way.

Then removing the odd sort of “If yes… If no…OMIT IF IRRELEVANT…” lingo and just asking straight up questions like: “Was the ban reason/note inaccurate or unfair? If so, why?”
“Do you disagree with the admin's interpretation of rules or policy? If so, why?”
“Was the ban reason/note too harsh? If so, why?”
“If none of the above, why do you think you should get a second chance?”

But even all these questions is just too much juju, as helpful as they are, for the ordinary person to want to appeal. I would actually just recommend putting them all in as guiding instructions, and not part of the template itself. For instance you would use the old format, and after the “Why do you think you should be unbanned?” you could add (consider things like: (list these helpful questions)). Then appellants would be directed properly but not forced into a difficult form-like appeal.

I mean for a start, ban appeals should be a way for people to express themselves somewhat- I've spoken with a few ppl who've dealt with them recently and that has been a major criticism. The new template seems to be pushing people to respond in a very rigid way (which isn't a skill that a lot of people have tbh- esp if you're trying to talk to people who's second language this is. I'm not 100% sure on how to address this core issue.) The old template had basically big sections where you could express yourself

FOr a start, I think the old template worked rlly well. We can just take some shit and throw it in to be a bit more guiding?

Although this isn't an AWESOME RE-WRITE EPIC STYLE.... Something like this would be way less overwhelming while also providing some guidance in the template.

I'm trying to think of ways to change it that isn't just flipping it back but I really do not see anything that is in my ability to present at least.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 7:34 pm Then removing the odd sort of “If yes… If no…OMIT IF IRRELEVANT…” lingo and just asking straight up questions like: “Was the ban reason/note inaccurate or unfair? If so, why?”
“Do you disagree with the admin's interpretation of rules or policy? If so, why?”
“Was the ban reason/note too harsh? If so, why?”
“If none of the above, why do you think you should get a second chance?”

I am a big fan of this. This makes more sense to me compared to the omit if irrelevant thing. It is more clear to me.

re-add the "anything else?" section
It was always funny what people put there, fucking hilarious I need this in my life thanks

Would it be feasible to have both templates?

A "We recommend this template, but if you want something a little simpler, we will also accept this one" kinda thing?

I had 30 minutes free and was bored, here are 38 appeals since the format change, catagorized into Confused, Refused, and Used

The total Numbers are:

Confused (10) : Refused to use / Just used the old template instead (9) : Used it Fine (19) : In total, that 19/19 for correct users vs incorrect users/people who couldnt be bothered
in that, i noticed a few trends Heres a pie graph ooohhh

Shit can't argue with that graph

kinnebian wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:27 pm I had 30 minutes free and was bored, here are 38 appeals since the format change, catagorized into Confused, Refused, and Used

The total Numbers are:

Confused (10) :

► Show Spoiler

-viewtopic.php?f=7&t=35383 (Did not delete preset text)
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35364 (Deleted some questions while still leaving other ones that would reference deleted questions)
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35340 (Mixed up the questions so their answers didnt make sense)
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35339 (Left presets in, fucked formatting)
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35323 (Complete format screw)
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35262 (similar to guy above)
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35261 (pretty clearly confused)
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35209 (format screwww)
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35171 (i love bold)
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35154 (left presets in, fucked formatting)

Refused to use / Just used the old template instead (9) :

► Show Spoiler

-viewtopic.php?f=7&t=35376 (Only Used the Upper half of the template)
-viewtopic.php?f=7&t=35379
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35349
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35337
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35331
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35333
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35255
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35229
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35189 (Only Used the Upper half of the template)

Used it Fine (19) :

► Show Spoiler

-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35366
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35370
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35326
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35341 (fucked up his format a bit but hes fine)
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35301 (mixed up questions at the end)
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35231
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35264
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35279 (did not delete instruction parts)
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35285 (did not delete instruction parts)
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35290
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35278
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35275
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35265
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35245
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35203 (mixed up questions at the end)
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35235 (did not delete instruction parts)
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35223
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35205
-viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35194

In total, that 19/19 for correct users vs incorrect users/people who couldnt be bothered
in that, i noticed a few trends

► Show Spoiler

-The more complicated format tends to leave people with half of their things in bold, enlarged, or other format screws
-people get really confused on "If no, elaborate" and the "If yes, elaborate" and constantly mix them up.
-Its very common for people to leave presets in
-Absolutely nobody deletes the large *Delete all irrelevant parts!* and it annoys the hell out of me

Heres a pie graph ooohhh

► Show Spoiler

Slam-dunk.

it makes it easier to read the appeals of people who know how to use it - but when it makes people confused, it confuses them hard and makes it overall less intelligible.

can we get a bump? its still making people fuck up and makes appeals a lot harder to read

We've been workshopping a new ban appeal template for a while, to try to find a middle ground between the old and new formats.
We're gonna run it for some time, see how it goes, and edit/improve if required.

Cheshify wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2024 11:23 pm We've been workshopping a new ban appeal template for a while, to try to find a middle ground between the old and new formats.
We're gonna run it for some time, see how it goes, and edit/improve if required.

Code: Select all

[b]BYOND account:[/b]

[b]Ban/note type (Check what applies):[/b]
[b]() - Server Ban[/b]
[b]() -  Note[/b]
[b]() -  Forum Ban[/b]
[b]() -  Discord Ban[/b]

[b]Ban/note length:[/b]
[b]Ban/note reason:[/b]
[b]Time ban was placed:[/b]
[b]Server you were playing on when banned:[/b]
[b]Round ID in which ban was placed:[/b]

[b]Why are you making this appeal?(Check what applies):[/b]
[b]() -  The ban/note is factually incorrect[/b]
[b]() - The ban/note is not against the rules[/b]
[b]() -  The ban/note needs modification[/b]
[b]() -  The ban was unjustifiably harsh[/b]
[b]() -  I was permabanned and I want another chance[/b]

[b]Why should this appeal be accepted?:[/b]

Im already suspicious of how well this will apply to people without any knowledge of how forum coding works, but I suppose we will see. If it runs for a bit ill make another pie chart

maybe crazy but honestly you could probably just condense it down to
Just feels like what admins want is "quickly know what the appeal is supposed to achieve" and what players want is "room to explain my reasoning", so why make it more complicated than that?

I really think it'd be best to either remove the bold text or put something like [PLACE ANSWER HERE] after the bolded sections so users know how to actually use the template without their appeals being an eyesore.

template reverted, we're trying out a new one. that's a wrap.