/tg/Station 13

Make ninjas restriction exempt, these guys are heavy weights who drop in the middle of the round to fuck up doors, hack borgs and blow up departments, so why can't we let them just kill whoever? Ninjas do not have any murder objectives normally so do we just expect them to try to do all these objectives non-lethally? It seems silly to me. Let ninjas kill people, with katanas and what not.

another day, another attempt to make an antag unrestricted on MRP

Ninjas are too good at killing people with absolutely no counterplay to be given a license to murderbone. If you wanna get in fights with your ninja sword, go do your objectives to piss everyone off so they start hunting you.

Did you really make a policy thread to let ninjas bone during an ongoing round of a ninja boning?

No please

TheRex9001 wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 9:29 am Ninjas do not have any murder objectives normally so do we just expect them to try to do all these objectives non-lethally?

Am I wrong or is this a critically large misunderstanding of MRP antag policy?
You don't need a kill objective to kill people, right? You need a reason backed up by IC reasoning or your objectives.

Because Ninjas have like 7 objectives they have an enormous license to kill people because nobody is going to want them to do any of those things and they can kill people who object to this.

Why would we want to change that to "automatically kill everyone you meet"? Ninjas are task-focused.

the issue is that ninjas cause so much destruction universally that they should be valid on sight. the fact that they can drop a maxcap at any point in time should allow ANYONE to be able to valid them on the spot. or at least that’s how it should be imo. what really happens is people just stay Slightly Away from them and aren’t scared of them at all. it’s so unbelievably lame and uninteresting. i feel pure dread when im on lrp and i hear that there’s a ninja around. when i hear that there’s a ninja on mrp i literally change nothing about the way i play and that’s stupid as fuck

also they literally produce MURDER BORGS. why are they RESTRICTED if they turn borgs into MURDER BORGS???

Oh boy if you thought making changelings unrestricted was a bad idea have I got news for you. Would you really want what is essentially one of the most elusive midround Antags a pass to murder everyone? They already get a free pass to kill validhunters and any sec chasing them.

Is this a real problem? I find it difficult to believe that admins are stepping in to stop ninjas killing people.

DaBoss wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 3:15 pm Is this a real problem? I find it difficult to believe that admins are stepping in to stop ninjas killing people.

They arent, thats the point of the thread. If admins dont enforce it as restricted why do we keep it restricted?

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 1:14 pm

TheRex9001 wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 9:29 am Ninjas do not have any murder objectives normally so do we just expect them to try to do all these objectives non-lethally?

Am I wrong or is this a critically large misunderstanding of MRP antag policy?
You don't need a kill objective to kill people, right? You need a reason backed up by IC reasoning or your objectives.

Because Ninjas have like 7 objectives they have an enormous license to kill people because nobody is going to want them to do any of those things and they can kill people who object to this.

Why would we want to change that to "automatically kill everyone you meet"? Ninjas are task-focused.

Restriction exempt isnt force antags to "automatically kill everyone you meet"? It allows them to do that yes, but it is usually to the detriment of themselves. Ninjas also produce murderborgs which they are just supposed to uhh, help ninjas do their objectives that only ninjas can do? I think our current policy around ninjas is just weird because all the arguements against ninja can be applied to say nuke ops.

Nuke ops have 1 objective which gives them an enormous license to kill people because nobody is going to want them to do that thing and they can kill people who object to this. So should we make nuke ops restriction applied? Nuke ops are also a task-focused heavy midround/roundstart.

Nuke Ops are openly at war with the station and are expected to kill everyone they meet on sight.
Ninjas are ninjas- you're not even supposed to know they are there. A ninja walking openly onto the station and killing everyone in sight isn't roleplaying as a Ninja, but this would be the result of unrestricting it (as seen with Changelings and such).
Being restricted still already allows them to kill people as required, restricted antags are not pacifists.

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 3:58 pm Nuke Ops are openly at war with the station and are expected to kill everyone they meet on sight.
Ninjas are ninjas- you're not even supposed to know they are there. A ninja walking openly onto the station and killing everyone in sight isn't roleplaying as a Ninja, but this would be the result of unrestricting it (as seen with Changelings and such).
Being restricted still already allows them to kill people as required, restricted antags are not pacifists.

Neither are unrestricted antags murderers salivating at the chance to kill more. I think Ninjas and Changelings are extremely different, you might have some purchase with the ninjas are ninjas point but why can they make murder cyborgs then? Its like the single loudest "there are ninjas" thing ever and doesn't feel very in flavour with roleplaying as a Ninja, no?

You don't think sabotaging equipment and having that cause chaos is a ninja thing to do?
Creating a horrible workplace incident is exactly what a corporate ninja is for.

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 4:16 pm You don't think sabotaging equipment and having that cause chaos is a ninja thing to do?
Creating a horrible workplace incident is exactly what a corporate ninja is for.

I never said those things. I just dont think a "workplace incident" is a giant murder robot running around with a sticky note saying "hey there is a ninja here" feels very "corporate ninja". This just feels tangential at best. Im just gonna avoid further responses like this because it feels like we are being bogged down far away from what the point is.

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 3:58 pm Ninjas are ninjas- you're not even supposed to know they are there. A ninja walking openly onto the station and killing everyone in sight isn't roleplaying as a Ninja, but this would be the result of unrestricting it (as seen with Changelings and such).

I agree. Ideally we could code a feature that makes you double-greentext if you don't leave any evidence for your deeds but that seems complicated.

My perspective is and remains that there is no need to unrestrict ninjas to allow them to kill people because they can already do that, and doing so will simply result in less interesting play.

Ninjas should not be unrestricted.

They can become unrestricted in how the crew treats them due to their actions. Many of the things ninjas do are annoying and destructive - leading towards this.

They have a lot of escapes and tools at their disposal which play into them being able to annoy the crew and destroy shit without getting caught already.

They are a midround, not a roundstart or latejoin, and should not be shifted to displace those as the major unrestricted threats on MRP more than other antags (with defined win conditions, conversion for dead/ghosts, and built-in global threats like blob, nukies, dragon, and malf) already do.

Do not unrestrict ninjas on MRP.

Higgin wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 4:36 pm They are a midround, not a roundstart or latejoin, and should not be shifted to displace those as the major unrestricted threats on MRP more than other antags (with defined win conditions, conversion for dead/ghosts, and built-in global threats like blob, nukies, dragon, and malf) already do.

(all these mentioned antagonists are midrounds, and in the same threat category as Ninjas)

TheRex9001 wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 4:40 pm

Higgin wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 4:36 pm They are a midround, not a roundstart or latejoin, and should not be shifted to displace those as the major unrestricted threats on MRP more than other antags (with defined win conditions, conversion for dead/ghosts, and built-in global threats like blob, nukies, dragon, and malf) already do.

(all these mentioned antagonists are midrounds, and in the same threat category as Ninjas)

yep. two of them are also roundstarts, and they all have the other things I mentioned that make them suck less ass to deal with than a ninja who decides to just go sickle mould with funny jaunt, stun, invis., etc.

making ninja unrestricted would be the equivalent of making them like wiz, in effect, and I don't see a need or gain in doing that for ninja to be much less able to do anything but kill with the license.

edit add: part of the challenge of ninja is using your toolkit within limits. if you want to fucking kill everyone, just playing ninja regularly will more than adequately lead them into shrugging off the towel and running at you to get turned into mincemeat anyway. it's better gameplay for the ninja and crew if it's on the crew to initiate that slaughter (of the crew) (without limits) (you can still 100% kill people as a ninja first with reason or in the pursuit of your objectives - that's all the restriction applies.)

i'm not too keen on the idea of them being unrestricted - they're excellent at combat already but their focus should not be on using nothing but combat to solve every situation. they're ninjas who are encouraged to use everything at their disposal to play the role of a ninja 忍び "the man who sneaks" 忍者 "the man who endures"

if restricted ninjas are killing and not getting in trouble for it then it could possibly mean that things are working as intended and ninjas are acting appropriately in the given IC context. what tends to happen from what i see/experience is that ninjas fuck up their stealth (because it's really quite difficult) and then people start snowballing trying to hunt them and kill them. the more the ninja fights back the more the crew's alert level escalates like metal gear solid and wants to get them.

this to me is a sensible method of escalation - to me the intention behind antag restriction isn't to stop them from killing people, it's to ensure that their choice to be destructive/murderous has reasonable motivation and cause behind it.

it's really easy to justify killing as ninja but I think it's fine for it to require SOME justification. Ninja works just fine with the current restrictions imo.

Ninja 100% does not need to be unrestricted; their kit right now, as everyone is saying, encourages crew to escalate rightfully against them, granting them the onus to kill people. The restrictions encourage roleplay with terrified bystanders by forcing them not to kill them with little reason (would our man who endures kill terrified innocents? little off-base, but I like the idea that the ninja has SOME form of honor.) as well as encouraging actually Doing The Objectives instead of, yknow, lame-ass murderboning.

This thread has given me a lot to think about, I think our old restrictions system might be a touch (putting it lightly) obtuse. I'll look for some way to target the actual disease instead of the unfortunate symptom that is the current state of Ninja. Restriction is a fair bit more complex than its current binary state which we have left it to wither in.