/tg/Station 13

So this originally sparked from a conversation in adminbus. With the recent admin candidate thingy being all over the place and waayyy to many candidates coming in at once, there was debate on how to fix the problem. I personally think public admin applications would be great. I proposed the idea in adminbus and it got mixed feelings so far so I'm making a thread.

Public Admin Applications are on numerous other servers including /vg/, bay (mentor)**, goon (mentors)**, paradise (mentors)**, and probably more.
There is a template laid out and then anyone can make an application on the forums. The application will then be seen and reviewed by both players and admins. Both can post experiences and thoughts on said person but in the end, a headmin will make the final call whether or not they will be trained and trialminned eventually. While having headmins be the final call may be less than ideal you might think, they must post a reason for their denial or acceptance when they do so, and this allows all the players to see what call was made and why.

This system is more open as anyone who feels like it can apply, though acceptance is subjective. There is less worry about bad admins slipping through the cracks just being candidated without input as now all applications are seen by anyone who visits the forum and there is ample time to offer feedback before any kind of training even happens. There is potential for less overflow like we currently have as candidates can't just be wisked up and made trialmins right and left as current admin trainers tend to be doing right now, but they must make an application and be judged by not only admins but the community at large as well.

Some admins have said that this system will likely not make a huge difference but if almost every other server has it and I really don't see a reason that we don't. /Tg/ has never tried public applications before so if this happens, this will be the first time. Post comments below your thoughts and ideas about the system.

** Mentors on these servers usually become admins at a later date, but the application proccess still exists.

I'm having a hard time seeing a counterargument against this.

Since we've already discussed my opinions on this in irc; what do you suggest the application template entail?

I can't really object to this. Well, I could if ever my connection got faster and I could actually play more often, because then I'd be tempted to push for UNLIMITED POWAH, but as it stands this is practical.

If this is implemented, I'd rather see some sort of system where admin trainers list whether they are taking candidates under their wing or not in the application forum, so we don't get applications piling up constantly with the expectation that a popularity contest will get them adminship.

Maybe some sort of central thread as to whether the admintrainers are free or not, and then applications being made when a spot opens up. I say this because we have an influx of new candidates, some not even selected by trainers, and trainers are technically the people who are supposed to be responsible for a candidate. And I say that because candidates often can't find someone to edit them to AC in game and there are times when it's a headmin just editing them because no trainer is available, and a rough mix of admins and headmins and whoever else is online watching over them.

also

>timezones

Applications would have to list usual timezones of activity because we have admins clustering in on 5+ admin rounds sometimes and sometimes one or zero admins at other times. Like I'm sorry if you're american and lead a normal life but we need less american admins or american admins who have a normal sleeping schedule, either one.

Timezone listing is a good idea. I also think applications would be open and closed based on a need of admins like other servers do, or just put apps on hold but allow apps to pile up? Something along the lines of that.

I still think a possible trialmin should need another admin to vet for them in the applications.

We have too many admins for us to just be going "lol I'm candidating five new admins because".

Agreed with Vekter and Ausops on this. I purposefully only candidate 1-2 people at a time and I've started to make a habit of *only* candidating those players (currently it's lollerderby). We have a few too many candidates floating about who just say "Hey Jordie candidated me last week can you make me one?" then we do so and they don't actually get any learning done. I'd like to see trainers specifically have candidates assigned to them, etc.

Yea but you also candidated lollerderby only after we had like 5+ candidates simply because you had to get in your candidate as well. You really missed the ball on that and it only contributed to the problem. I honestly only think Jordie ever did a good job with the admin trainer rank while everyone else just used it as a title. This will solve that issue where trainers just candidate whoever without even bothering to communicate.

Edit: What I mean really is that because of your lack of communication, you brought in a candidate at an un-optimal time.

This is a good idea. We've been getting some really questionable admincandidates recently.

I wrote up a template. Note this is still just a concept.

Template
Code

Maybe change the wording around "notable bans or notes"
Because I think it sounds like "notable notes", and thats silly

Here's the old admin app we used to have a few years ago.

tedward1337 wrote:Maybe change the wording around "notable bans or notes"
Because I think it sounds like "notable notes", and thats silly

Do you have any note worthy notes that we should note?

6.You have to give up ERP. Is this an issue?

Oh dear god what have I done

Admins literally taking a vow of chastity

10.Will you be able to lead by example?

Boy do I wish our current admins took this to heart

6.You have to give up ERP. Is this an issue?

>we actually needed this in the admin application before ERP was banned

holy shit was our ERP problem really that bad?

Your avatar fits it, but I really hope this was more of a joke.

Since I, of course, want ERP back.

NikNakFlak wrote:

tedward1337 wrote:Maybe change the wording around "notable bans or notes"
Because I think it sounds like "notable notes", and thats silly

Do you have any note worthy notes that we should note?

Perfect

6.You have to give up ERP. Is this an issue?

This rule killed my nascent ERP career. I've regretted agreeing to it ever since.

Seriously though I always thought some kind of written thing was a good idea, though I'd like to see what reasons were behind it being phased out.

NikNakFlak wrote:

tedward1337 wrote:Maybe change the wording around "notable bans or notes"
Because I think it sounds like "notable notes", and thats silly

Do you have any note worthy notes that we should note?

If a note wasn't noteworthy then it wouldn't be a note now would it

Good idea. We're in dire need of transparency.

Before I left I had set in motion in a procedure to roll over the admin-trainer positions.

Simply put: not every admin is a good trainer or experienced enough to be able to teach others.

If you want to move to having the process be public and there be a more formal pool of accepted candidates you should do so with the precepts that:

1) Only headmins, the host, and the selected admin-trainer level admins have any real say on who goes in the pool or not.

2) Even if everyone votes you in there will be a final vote afterwards amongst the headmins/host whether you pass/fail that training procedure.

Anything less is a popularity contest.

I more or less thought it would be like that. Input from everywhere with only the final say from headmins/host. I mentioned it in the OP.

NikNakFlak wrote:I more or less thought it would be like that. Input from everywhere with only the final say from headmins/host. I mentioned it in the OP.

My bad, I must've missed that.

Ricotez wrote:

6.You have to give up ERP. Is this an issue?

>we actually needed this in the admin application before ERP was banned

holy shit was our ERP problem really that bad?

It was never bad, it was just to make sure that people knew exactly that ERP was a no no for admins. Plenty of reasons for this, one of them was that it had been allowed for admins but the drama it brought up was not worth whatever benefit it brought.

Better to make something transparent instead of just letting players read the lines when it comes to rules no?

I think job applications for admin are silly.

When we had them the headmin at the time just picked his friends anyway, then declared revotes if admins voted them out after the trial, then eventually threw out the vote entirely when people wouldn't vote the way he wanted.

All the bureaucracy and systems people put in place are pointless because there isn't any actual recourse if headmins can and will just ignore the system when they want to anyway. And if the headmin is picking decent people it really doesn't matter much how they're doing it. I mean look at the admin complaints forum, which in all the time I've been here has resulted in action on less occasions than I have fingers on my hands. No number of extra rules will magically make people follow them.

It's well meaning but we're not a real government/job and no number of rules will make people take it more or less seriously.

Kor wrote:I think job applications for admin are silly.

When we had them the headmin at the time just picked his friends anyway, then declared revotes if admins voted them out after the trial, then eventually threw out the vote entirely when people wouldn't vote the way he wanted.

All the bureaucracy and systems people put in place are pointless because there isn't any actual recourse if headmins can and will just ignore the system when they want to anyway. And if the headmin is picking decent people it really doesn't matter much how they're doing it. I mean look at the admin complaints forum, which in all the time I've been here has resulted in action on less occasions than I have fingers on my hands. No number of extra rules will magically make people follow them.

It's well meaning but we're not a real government/job and no number of rules will make people take it more or less seriously.

Transparency tho

Vekter wrote:

Kor wrote:I think job applications for admin are silly.

When we had them the headmin at the time just picked his friends anyway, then declared revotes if admins voted them out after the trial, then eventually threw out the vote entirely when people wouldn't vote the way he wanted.

All the bureaucracy and systems people put in place are pointless because there isn't any actual recourse if headmins can and will just ignore the system when they want to anyway. And if the headmin is picking decent people it really doesn't matter much how they're doing it. I mean look at the admin complaints forum, which in all the time I've been here has resulted in action on less occasions than I have fingers on my hands. No number of extra rules will magically make people follow them.

It's well meaning but we're not a real government/job and no number of rules will make people take it more or less seriously.

Transparency tho

Okay and? You're generally reporting the misbehavior to the person who did the thing in the first place, or a friend of that person. Nothing obligates them to respond at all to your complaint, or respond with anything other than a thin justification for "apology" before continuing to do it.

Don't blame a system on a bad egg kor.

NikNakFlak wrote:Don't blame a system on a bad egg kor.

Act like that bullshit wouldn't continue to happen with the adminbase we have now.
Admin apps are just a mirage meant to give a false sense of transparency to the playerbase.
Nepotism has always been and always will be very prominent in selecting people for positions of power IRL and even more so on the internet. With few exceptions, whoever sucks the most cuck gets ahead. That's the way of the world because people are egotistical and selfish.

I'm not sure this is how you use 'cuck'.

Well, if you believe that happens, which it doesn't. That is fine.
If you believe that, then the only difference public admin applications does is you get to see the bullshit verses now where you don't get to see anything. It's a lose, lose for you.

If you don't believe that, then public admin applications open up the trialmin process and makes it more structured with community review before a trial even begins. Public admin apps literally get the community more involved in the process where they have basically zero say now. But ok, frostbye, we won't do it because everything is a conspiracy.

He's correct to a certain extent.
If you really don't believe that cognitive bias affects you or other people in their decision making you really must see the world more.

It always will to a degree (even on a subconscious level), but most of our decisions re: admins are made based on a player's history and willingness to help, not whether or not they're popular.