/tg/Station 13

Stickymayhem wrote:Act like security get treated like security.

If you're arming up as a non-antag you get the responsibilities that come with that power whether you like it or not.

I'd like to discuss this. I feel like simply by virtue of being outfitted like security does not and should not make you more responsible for your actions.

I dislike the idea that in a situation in which an assistant wearing a riot suit is more responsible for their actions than an assistant wearing an orange vest. Lots of scenarios happen where someone gets gear.

I'm pretty sure this was done with the intent of cutting down on the valid hunting and making the actual security roles more attractive to play.

But seriously though, why DOES an assistant need to go gettin them valids? Outside of immediate self defense you have no reason to go out and look for trouble.

An awful lot of people want to deathmatch, apparently.

This is pretty dumb. Having Security clothing and/or a special job similar to Security does not make you as responsible as Security

QuartzCrystal wrote:I'd like to discuss this. I feel like simply by virtue of being outfitted like security does not and should not make you more responsible for your actions.

I dislike the idea that in a situation in which an assistant wearing a riot suit is more responsible for their actions than an assistant wearing an orange vest. Lots of scenarios happen where someone gets gear.

What do you believe the reason is for requiring security to play by more restrictive rules in the first place? Does this reasoning also apply to non-antags who grab security gear?

Honestly, People who want to grab all the benefits of security with a special snowflake title from the HoP are the worst.
Not saying it should be a hard rule, but if you wanna pewpew traitors, you should do it like the rest of the redshirts and get shit on with the rest of us.

Why should I play as a security officer when I can just take all their gear and get to be one without all the restrictions?

Why is only security restricted in what they can do when anyone else with a gun can do it?

AFAIK the rule of thumb only applied to acting like security, not just dressing up like one.

Wouldn't it make more sense to back off from security now that sos is gone rather than extend unpopular restrictions to other people?

Kor wrote:Wouldn't it make more sense to back off from security now that sos is gone rather than extend unpopular restrictions to other people?

What would you like to change? (Actually this is off-topic. Should be saved for a new thread if you want to change sec policy)

my own personal take is simply... if you have the means to detain non-lethally you should use them unless your are dealing with an extremely dangerous opponent like nuke ops. So, if you have armed yourself with a tazer or baton or other items which can subue as easily (if not more easily) as they can harm then you should go for the non-lethal solution. So if you are an assistant or special snowflake with full sec gear, then you should be going non-lethal.

If on the other hand you are going to be valid hunting and going for kills then don't take any non-lethal weapons with you and just kill whoever you think you can and let the admins sort it out, at least in that scenario the admins cant wonder "why didnt you cuff him after you tazed him?" because you lazered him to death and dont carry cuffs... granted you will prolly get banned if you didnt have proper escalation and are probably a terribe person in general.

If you go to the HoP and get security access, go to security and get yourself outfitted as a security officer, no matter WHAT your ID says you deserve to be held to the same standards as normal sec. I don't understand how this is even a debate? Techno got sec access from the HoP and was issued a taser by the warden. For all intents and purposes they were a sec officer from that point forward.

So if I'm an engineer and something is wrong with the brig and I get security access I'm therefore security?

Yeah like that logic really makes sense.

He was never part of the security department. He reported directly to the Captain, no one else.

Tornadium wrote:So if I'm an engineer and something is wrong with the brig and I get security access I'm therefore security?

Yeah like that logic really makes sense.

He was never part of the security department. He reported directly to the Captain, no one else.

No, you're deliberately misinterpreting what I said.
If you get sec access from the HoP, take gear from the brig, and act as an officer, you should be treated like one. My logic is not access = occupation, dumbass, what I'm saying is that if you have sec access, and sec gear, how are you functionally different from a normal officer?

With great power comes great responsibility.

Please keep in mind that the sticky quote I made and my post make no references to job changes or special snowflake roles. We're talking gear here.

Well that's just dumb then.

Edit: Ok, gotta stop online sarcasm, not helpful

I see no issue with that, I don't think he's saying if you dress like an officer, and arm yourself like an officer, then you're an officer, go fight crime.
You're just held to the same standard of not abusing people and murdering people you are completely capable of detaining.

whodaloo wrote:

Tornadium wrote:So if I'm an engineer and something is wrong with the brig and I get security access I'm therefore security?

Yeah like that logic really makes sense.

He was never part of the security department. He reported directly to the Captain, no one else.

No, you're deliberately misinterpreting what I said.
If you get sec access from the HoP, take gear from the brig, and act as an officer, you should be treated like one. My logic is not access = occupation, dumbass, what I'm saying is that if you have sec access, and sec gear, how are you functionally different from a normal officer?

He wasn't acting like an officer.

He was acting like a bodyguard for the captain.

I'm a fucking broken record over here.

Stop holding security to a higher standard and the problem will solve itself.

People who want to beat the shit out of people will join sec.
People who just want to be assholes will provide them with folks to beat the shit out of.
People who join sec just to be assholes will oust themselves by their own attack logs and get bant.

Sec becomes fun again
Grey-tiders either get put to good use, or routinely dunked
Antag-hunters trying to mug sec officers for gear get dunked
Shitters continue to be shit, and either get bant or get dunked

Yeah i thought we were giving sec more leeway because it was so systematically awful to play.

Once upon a time sec was a brutal, murderous group of total assholes.
Traitors were in their midst, and there were no rules against officers getting their valids on.

This would often lead to sec officers relay tossing people, innocent or otherwise, out the airlock.

Why?

Because one traitor officer pointing at anyone on the station and saying "That guy is a murderer get him!" was sensible enough for any other nearby non-antag officer who wanted to get some blood on their baton to join in on stomping someone to death. Multiple times I was even lynched by my own sec force as a HoS for trying to instill order and justice when others accused me of being the traitor.

There was lots of "trusting" going on then, in the sense that anyone telling you to murder someone could be "trusted" enough that it was okay to do. Eventually sec had traitor taken away from them and more rules added to them to try to calm this down, since it was IM-FUCKING-POSSIBLE to play a sec officer that actually wanted to help people without everyone lynching you (or your suspect getting tossed out an airlock, and the guy you brought in as a witness, and the lawyer, and the mime, and so on).

While this was a total fucking nightmare of bullshit and wanton slaughtering it was also FUN.

I'm not advocating a return to that shitfest. I think the most instrumental part in the Shitcurity Murderspree 2011 was the fact that there were traitors in their midst feeding other officers false info that they could (and happily would) act on immediately without any kind of corroboration or fact-checking.

...but I think a return to a world were sec officers can kill people in self defense, or defense of others, and brutally murderlize known capital offenders (as long as nobody who cares is watching! don't get fired!) would be a big improvement on the current mallcop bullshit we currently have.

Goon has a great idea when it comes to sentencing. You make it all up as long as it doesn't go over 5 minutes. If you think they did something which DOES warrant more than five minutes, ask the Warden or HoS.

That's.fucking.it.

Back to the good ol' skull-cracking funtimes of dispensing sweet sweet JUSTICE without all the autism of brig timer modifiers and term multipliers. More sec murdering people than we have now (a lot more!) but it should be justified and handled by admins the same as any other grey-tider would be murdering the same guy anyway.

I think we should just ban people from sec if they are being completely retarded. Back in the good old days of murderbrig prisonstationforever everyone was having fun somehow. Sec would crack skulls that must be cracked and people would rise to the challenge and burn the brig to the fucking ground every other round.


Maybe we need to write a guide on how to play sec and force people to do a short quiz before it lets them select any security job.

This isn't an anti sec policy it doesn't even affect actual officers.

people were rolling assistant, stealing gear and antaghunting with it and it was shit. Half the assistants were suddenly walking deathmongers with no rules against them stripping random people, murdering antags on the spot and basically being hidden security.

It's not about access its about treating people who take that power as non antagonist to hunt antags or !!PROTECT!! The station like security so they either stop being cunts or play security instead as a better option.

Can you all stop being deliberately stupid when it comes to these rulings. We don't need absolute definitions like a legal system. Clothes or access or whatever doesn't matter. It's about how they're using that power.

Actions make the man, not the clothes.

Sounds like we're transferring to a heavy RP Server if this is the direction MSO/Headmins are taking us.

I would rather assistants do the job security is being prevented from doing than no one do it.

In the original case he wasn't a security officer. He was a hired thug that was given security equipment.

This policy was made quite clear months ago. You don't have to be promoted to an officer to be treated like one. If you steal or get security gear and use it for anything other than personal self defence you're treated like security. If you don't want the responsibility don't take the power. I robust people fine with my bare hands.

Tornadium wrote:Sounds like we're transferring to a heavy RP Server if this is the direction MSO/Headmins are taking us.

Please just stay in bagil deadchat you have no clue what you're talking about. Sybil isn't even close to medium RP let alone heavy.

Stickymayhem wrote:This policy was made quite clear months ago. You don't have to be promoted to an officer to be treated like one. If you steal or get security gear and use it for anything other than personal self defence you're treated like security. If you don't want the responsibility don't take the power. I robust people fine with my bare hands.

Tornadium wrote:Sounds like we're transferring to a heavy RP Server if this is the direction MSO/Headmins are taking us.

Please just stay in bagil deadchat you have no clue what you're talking about. Sybil isn't even close to medium RP let alone heavy.

It does seem to be heading towards that bay style of restriction where every circumstance has a policy. It's certainly far more than what it was even a year ago.

Manners maketh the man actually

Tornadium wrote:Sounds like we're transferring to a heavy RP Server if this is the direction MSO/Headmins are taking us.

Tornadium wrote:It does seem to be heading towards that bay style of restriction where every circumstance has a policy. It's certainly far more than what it was even a year ago.

Do you actually play on bay or are you operating on rumours and hearsay?

Kelenius wrote:

Tornadium wrote:Sounds like we're transferring to a heavy RP Server if this is the direction MSO/Headmins are taking us.

Tornadium wrote:It does seem to be heading towards that bay style of restriction where every circumstance has a policy. It's certainly far more than what it was even a year ago.

Do you actually play on bay or are you operating on rumours and hearsay?

No I've actually played on bay quite a few times.

Got warned for stealing a Taser.

Tornadium you're either deliberately stupid or actually stupid. Either way if you keep whining about us going bay when you haven't even touched Sybil for over a YEAR I'm deleting your posts.

Stickymayhem wrote:Tornadium you're either deliberately stupid or actually stupid. Either way if you keep whining about us going bay when you haven't even touched Sybil for over a YEAR I'm deleting your posts.

You're going to delete my posts because I equate what I've seen in the last two weeks to a bay-esque style of play/administration?

What?

No I'm going to delete your posts because I know how you act on the server and it's unfortunately spilled onto the forums.

And also because you're just arguing so ridiculously that it must be parody.

Stickymayhem wrote:No I'm going to delete your posts because I know how you act on the server and it's unfortunately spilled onto the forums.

And also because you're just arguing so ridiculously that it must be parody.

I'm sorry, I'm confused what? How do I act on the server?

I disagree with you and I make an argument for it and vice versa so therefore I'm being ridiculous despite other people sharing the same opinion?

I don't get it.

I would agree that the rules have moved in a direction away from the goonstation type of, "Don't be a shit, and if you are, you better at least be very, very funny" and more (if only like 10% of the way there "If this then this, if this then don't do this, EVER" Bay type rules. The security policy and the battles and changes are a great example, nobody actually knows what security can and cannot do anymore with 100% certainty.

rdght91 wrote: "If this then this, if this then don't do this, EVER" Bay type rules.

It's amazing how escalation, silicon policy, security rules etc are all about 10 times longer in themselves than the entire rule set was when I first started playing.

rdght91 wrote:I would agree that the rules have moved in a direction away from the goonstation type of, "Don't be a shit, and if you are, you better at least be very, very funny" and more (if only like 10% of the way there "If this then this, if this then don't do this, EVER" Bay type rules. The security policy and the battles and changes are a great example, nobody actually knows what security can and cannot do anymore with 100% certainty.

This.

The thing is the highly specific rules are from requests IN THREADS LIKE THESE REQUESTING SPECIFIC CLARIFICATIONS. There were less specific rules and admins were allowed more leeway to say this was shit and that was funny but people got uptight about it and more specific rules were laid down.

As to the question of armed antag/criminal hunters, those who obtained specific permission IC to be sec-lite should act like it, detaining when possible and brigging/obeying the chain of command. Otherwise what we will get are 'militias' that act like murder sec getting around polite play restrictions with a name change.

If you remove sec restrictions on these people then every HoS will be within their rights to take back guns and equipment and arrest the HoP for allowing any unauthorized sec access.

Maybe just demand that those who have been loyalty implanted need to follow the higher standard (antag excluded of course)?

Void Slayer wrote:The thing is the highly specific rules are from requests IN THREADS LIKE THESE REQUESTING SPECIFIC CLARIFICATIONS. There were less specific rules and admins were allowed more leeway to say this was shit and that was funny but people got uptight about it and more specific rules were laid down.

There was a time when people understood "don't be a dick". That was apparently too hard for the regular greytiding shitters.

Stickymayhem wrote:Tornadium you're either deliberately stupid or actually stupid. Either way if you keep whining about us going bay when you haven't even touched Sybil for over a YEAR I'm deleting your posts.

Your reaction is entirely out of line.

Tornadium wrote:Sounds like we're transferring to a heavy RP Server if this is the direction MSO/Headmins are taking us.

As far as RP goes, currently we're pretty much a light RP server. You know this, because ingame chat is constantly spammed with lame shit like meta-terminology and OOC names/phrases.

Medium RP would be where there isn't any of that, and people actually make an effort to interact whenever they interact with other crew. Shit like asking before using the same machine, having a proper conversation with the HoP, coming up with decent emotes as the mime, funny one-liners before executing a traitor.
Heavy RP is when your RP is enforced against your character role ala Bay and you have to tie your gameplay closely against that while taking consideration for other people's roleplaying.

On the bright side, I saw someone get banned for OOC in IC yesterday, so there's a start.

We're supposed to be medium RP; light RP is Goon, heavy RP is Bay. We're supposed to be in the middle.

Instead, we have people making stunprods at roundstart "for protection", Captains breaking out their own laser gun, people forceborging non-murdering traitors without a trial, Officers having their weapons stolen "because it's fun"... see where I'm going with this? We're not Goon. Let's steer this serboat back around towards arrpees.

An example: Ian, the station's mascot, is being taken for a walk.
Goon: Your resident greyshirt kills Ian and runs off with the body, slipping and cablecuffing the HoP who tries to stop them.
Bay: Your resident greyshirt asks the HoP really nicely if he can borrow Ian. The HoP says no, and nothing else happens.

Another: A criminal is being taken to the Brig for processing.
Goon: They're dragged away by a non-antag accomplice, freed, and the Officer is dunked, stripped and brigged.
Bay: The non-antag accomplice asks the Officer what happened, is told the charges, and nothing else happens.

Which of these is more likely to happen here? Is that a good thing? I say we find a balance between the two. Kidnap Ian and hold him hostage for a million space dollars (or just take him for a walk and return him when the HoP asks); follow the criminal and make sure they're being treated fairly (and advocate to be their lawyer, if needed)... see what I mean? We're the medium-RP server, let's act like it.

Supposed to be, but we're not. Quality and level of interaction varies wildly depending on the people involved.

Saegrimr wrote: There was a time when people understood "don't be a dick". That was apparently too hard for the regular greytiding shitters.

It's 100% entirely this. We've had to change and and add these rules because this stopped being a super sekret fun club of like 40 some odd regulars and turned into the biggest tourist destination in all spessmens.

People starting holding grudges against other people and looking for every opportunity to treat them like shit instead of just enjoying the game.

People started perceiving every slight against them as a purposeful intended insult of the highest order that must be made right and that their sacred unalienable right to play spessmens without interference must always be upheld.

And because that was the most vocal and most consistent feedback we got, we had to change to keep people happy.

/tg/station's population is like a bunch of screaming people locked in a big circular cage, mounted on a big turntable. Everytime you try to turn it in one direction or the other in the hopes that it might give the people screaming in your face some kind of relief, it just confronts you with more screaming. The best you can do is find a spot where you are confronted with the least amount of screaming and leave it there.

Unfortunately, while people might scream less, it's also not anywhere near as fun as it used to be.

Whether that's really the fault of the rules or the people who are here playing is impossible to determine. Nobody has a clear perspective of it.

invisty wrote: On the bright side, I saw someone get banned for OOC in IC yesterday, so there's a start.

People have been being banned for OOC in IC (and vice versa) for as long as I've been playing and more.

Arete wrote:

QuartzCrystal wrote:I'd like to discuss this. I feel like simply by virtue of being outfitted like security does not and should not make you more responsible for your actions.

I dislike the idea that in a situation in which an assistant wearing a riot suit is more responsible for their actions than an assistant wearing an orange vest. Lots of scenarios happen where someone gets gear.

What do you believe the reason is for requiring security to play by more restrictive rules in the first place? Does this reasoning also apply to non-antags who grab security gear?

None at all, realistically any situation where a crewman can kill someone should be a situation where security can ALSO kill someone.
Whether HoS wants to reprimand them for being a loose cannon or pat them on the back for a good kill is up to them. It should be an IC issue.


As it stands for the topic at hand... no - just because you have cable cuffs and a stun prod doesn't make you a sec officer - sec is probably going to jump on you if you attempt to brig someone.

If we unrestricted security and just treated them like anyone else on the station greytiding rules would probably have to be taken away as they were in place to stop sec being harassed.

I'd be alright with running this as a trial for a few days. Maybe everything would be laxer. If people can resist abusing it maybe we could see about reducing the 300 page rulebook

Admin rulings will naturally be more variable resulting in butthurt and people will just have to trust admins. A big reason the rules are there are to save time for admins having to explain themselves for an hour with every single deccision instead of just citing a rule with all the precedent for that.

Stickymayhem wrote: people were rolling assistant, stealing gear and antaghunting with it and it was shit. Half the assistants were suddenly walking deathmongers with no rules against them stripping random people, murdering antags on the spot and basically being hidden security.

Don't know about anyone else, but actually being one the crazy people still here from the era of Dante Smith's mass murderboners which were countered by two thirds of the crew dropping what they were doing to grab the nearest sharp or blunt object to be the one that takes the glory for felling the foul beast... was when the game was actually still fun.

And I remember when lings had super high genome counts and their abilities weren't gated behind an unlock system and were restricted via timers per sting instead of a chem cost from a shared pool.
Those lings were fucking scary.

Not to be "that guy" but from my experience of 10 rounds yesterday those rules don't stop sec getting fucked with.