/tg/Station 13

My grand contribution to Sticky's low rule adventure was "if you start shit and you get fucked up in return don't cry about it in admin help" and would like to see that be an official rule (because admins don't actually read the admin guidelines so far as I know).

I've been personally operating off that standard for years but it'd probably be nice to include in the rules somewhere as an override to other rules (ie; it doesn't matter that the other guy didn't 100% follow the escalation rules, or that the officer forgot to get permission to execute you, because you were being a shit, and deserved it).

Anyway I propose

Rule X: Adminhelping: If you felt you've been griefed/wronged in the game, feel free to contact an administrator, however consider the following
-Admin PMs are extremely disruptive to the flow of gameplay. Consider if it's worth getting admins involved at all, or if you'd wanted to be PMd in a similar situation. Sometimes taking a five minute breather and calming down is better than getting into a drawn out battle in PMs.
-Call security first. There is a (somewhat) capable security force on station to deal with petty crime, it isn't always an admin issue. As a general rule of thumb, if you're alive and your workplace is still reasonably functional, it probably isn't an issue worth adminhelping over
-If you instigated a fight, or otherwise were being disruptive/annoying and suffered the consequences for it, don't adminhelp. The best you can hope for is to be laughed at, or at worst banned for banbaiting.

Thoughts? Changes, additions, etc?

Can't fault your wording, looks like an exciting change.

Be prepared to handle a lot of arguments over who exactly instigated a fight, but I definitely agree with the principle of the rule.

Arete wrote:Be prepared to handle a lot of arguments over who exactly instigated a fight, but I definitely agree with the principle of the rule.

There is already a convenient "Win argument"button called mute from adminhelp.

Stickymayhem wrote:There is already a convenient "Win argument"button called mute from adminhelp.

Just do what I do and threaten them for disagreeing with my hot opinions.

another trash change

I liked the old idea that you wanted to do as few things to discourage adminhelping as possible, since admin PMs are not, in fact, some horrifying punishment (unless one or both parties make it so, in which case that's a separate issue)...

... And the idea that they are is deeply stupid and conterproductive in the same manner as players who proudly announce they'll never adminhelp, like they're fucking six years old and won't tattle on nobody never...

But I have seen a few of these lately, so +1. If you start shit, whether or not you can cite a casus beli, then don't expect me to ban the other person for beating you.

Remember that the community decides how the game works. If no one is upset about the guy who griefed then he doesn't need to get removed until people start getting posses about it.

Discouraging frivolous a helping could do a lot to lighten the load on security in particular. Really though it sucks to have to have the rules in the back of your mind limiting you all the time. The more we can encourage mutually accepted levels of shittery the better.

There is an entire section for admin helping guidelines in the rules, I say they need to all me made hard and fast rules.

I made reject admin help so admins could reject shitty admin helps like "IS THAT VALID?" or "ARE YOU FUCKING SEEING THIS"

-If you instigated a fight, or otherwise were being disruptive/annoying and suffered the consequences for it, don't adminhelp. The best you can hope for is to be laughed at, or at worst banned for banbaiting.

This is a stupidly slippery slope. You should maybe remove annoying.

why would you change the rules so you can murder someone for slipping you once

Stickymayhem wrote:Discouraging frivolous a helping could do a lot to lighten the load on security in particular. Really though it sucks to have to have the rules in the back of your mind limiting you all the time. The more we can encourage mutually accepted levels of shittery the better.

The other night I was playing warden and a traitor scumbag that had robusted the HoS (he was wearing his armor) storms past me as I'm throwing the clown out and runs straight into the armory.
Had him down a fair few times but he had an EMP implant and an adrenal implant (guy was shrugging stuns off left right and centre) so he almost got away from me wailing on him with a harm baton.

There were two officers in the armory with me, and you could see the dumb shits hesitating at smiting the traitor - is that the type of security force we have today? Has the fear of rulez and boinking really made of the mighty reds forget their balls?

Malkevin wrote:

Stickymayhem wrote:Discouraging frivolous a helping could do a lot to lighten the load on security in particular. Really though it sucks to have to have the rules in the back of your mind limiting you all the time. The more we can encourage mutually accepted levels of shittery the better.

The other night I was playing warden and a traitor scumbag that had robusted the HoS (he was wearing his armor) storms past me as I'm throwing the clown out and runs straight into the armory.
Had him down a fair few times but he had an EMP implant and an adrenal implant (guy was shrugging stuns off left right and centre) so he almost got away from me wailing on him with a harm baton.

There were two officers in the armory with me, and you could see the dumb shits hesitating at smiting the traitor - is that the type of security force we have today? Has the fear of rulez and boinking really made of the mighty reds forget their balls?

Seen this a few times, Officers far too scared to escalate to lethal force. It gets them mobbed and killed because they tried to be reasonable.

Malkevin wrote:

Stickymayhem wrote:Discouraging frivolous a helping could do a lot to lighten the load on security in particular. Really though it sucks to have to have the rules in the back of your mind limiting you all the time. The more we can encourage mutually accepted levels of shittery the better.

The other night I was playing warden and a traitor scumbag that had robusted the HoS (he was wearing his armor) storms past me as I'm throwing the clown out and runs straight into the armory.
Had him down a fair few times but he had an EMP implant and an adrenal implant (guy was shrugging stuns off left right and centre) so he almost got away from me wailing on him with a harm baton.

There were two officers in the armory with me, and you could see the dumb shits hesitating at smiting the traitor - is that the type of security force we have today? Has the fear of rulez and boinking really made of the mighty reds forget their balls?

It's one of the main reasons I don't tend to play Security any more. Depending on which admins are online, lethal force can and will end up with bans.
I'd like to be able to play the game without this overarching fear of punishment, but at the same time, I'd like to actually play the game so I'd rather not get banned.

The thing is though, the armoury has always been a place specified by the rules as a place where you can straight up use lethal force.

That that undue hesitation has spread into securities holy land is worrying

Malkevin wrote:The thing is though, the armoury has always been a place specified by the rules as a place where you can straight up use lethal force.

That that undue hesitation has spread into securities holy land is worrying

The last couple of times I have used lethal force, I've been warned and told I should use non-lethal means. Including one time when I was checking on the engine as the HoP due to lack of head staff, and walked into the Librarian breaking their way through the PA r-walls.
Secure area? Check. Someone who should have NO fucking access to this area at all, especially considering I'm the person who gives out access? Check. Someone acting traitorous as fuck in said secure area? Check.
And apparently I should have had the foresight to carry handcuffs on me, like some sort of HoP supercop.

Akkryls wrote:

Malkevin wrote:The thing is though, the armoury has always been a place specified by the rules as a place where you can straight up use lethal force.

That that undue hesitation has spread into securities holy land is worrying

The last couple of times I have used lethal force, I've been warned and told I should use non-lethal means. Including one time when I was checking on the engine as the HoP due to lack of head staff, and walked into the Librarian breaking their way through the PA r-walls.
Secure area? Check. Someone who should have NO fucking access to this area at all, especially considering I'm the person who gives out access? Check. Someone acting traitorous as fuck in said secure area? Check.
And apparently I should have had the foresight to carry handcuffs on me, like some sort of HoP supercop.

Leave some bad feedback about whichever admin that was, you aren't sec, if you catch someone being traitorous you shouldn't be expected to arrest them, you aren't even implanted.

callanrockslol wrote: if you catch someone being traitorous you shouldn't be expected to arrest them, you aren't even implanted.

Sort of this, I mean if you're the HoP you should have an egun or something right? Or did they get rid of that recently?
If it wasn't the PA or the Armory, straight up lethals would have been excessive.

Saegrimr wrote:

callanrockslol wrote: if you catch someone being traitorous you shouldn't be expected to arrest them, you aren't even implanted.

Sort of this, I mean if you're the HoP you should have an egun or something right? Or did they get rid of that recently?
If it wasn't the PA or the Armory, straight up lethals would have been excessive.

The HoP has an egun, which carries 10 disabler shots or 10 laser shots.

I know if I'm a HOP who isn't playing supercop and carrying a miniature brig with them, I'll damn well use the 20-burn laser shots and crit someone doing grand sabotage in a restricted area, rather than having to hope like hell security gets there before I run out of 35-holo disabler shots.

We've got this weird thing going on with the HoP/captain where we refuse to spawn them with cuffs because "they shouldn't be security!" but at the same time insist "you can't kill people, you're an authority role with a stun weapon!"

Kor wrote:We've got this weird thing going on with the HoP/captain where we refuse to spawn them with cuffs because "they shouldn't be security!" but at the same time insist "you can't kill people, you're an authority role with a stun weapon!"

We refuse to spawn them with cuffs and yet spawn them with authority, a lethal weapon, armor, and access to more sec gear

Another point of interest is that their collapsable baton is not all that great with the cooldown, People just get back up before you're ready to do something about it, and proceed to retaliate for getting whacked.

But yeah, Unless you're balancing for the first few minutes of the round for some reason, either code needs to give em cuffs, or policy needs to let em up the ante to lethal when they need to. I like the latter, because they shouldn't be security, If you wanna play games with them, you should assume they can and very well may take you out of the round/

For something like the primary and secondary chain of command, ability to use lethals in situations like this really shouldn't be a problem. I mean hell the Captain can already authorize executions for prisoners, and if there's a situation to put the head of the station at significant risk he should very well deal with it however he wants.

Saegrimr wrote:For something like the primary and secondary chain of command, ability to use lethals in situations like this really shouldn't be a problem. I mean hell the Captain can already authorize executions for prisoners, and if there's a situation to put the head of the station at significant risk he should very well deal with it however he wants.

This.
There are fewer situations you can ever run into that are more dangerous than catching an antag with his pants down like that. As an antag having that happen, a switch in your brain tells you to FUCKING KILL THAT FAGGOT BEFORE HE SCREAMS AND RUINS YOUR SWEET PLAN

I can say that it feels like lately more than ever, I need to start every conversation with an adminhelper with the phrase 'And that was literally all you did to cause it?'