/tg/Station 13

I think its kind of stupid for crew to know everything about traitor items.Every security guard is itching to arrest a spy.As a clown i sometimes poke security guards with normal pens and watch them scream "Parapen help now! bla bla hes a traitor get him!!" and then they proceed to drag me off to the brig and question me the entire round.Or security burning papers found in bags because they suspect you of being cult and many other dumb paranoid examples of how everyone behaves.Also every time i get searched and found with a pen , I always get stabbed with a pen to see if its a parapen.

It encourages the 'validhunter 360 noscope' gameplay some people swear by, but it does have its uses. We don't want to go full Bay - where you can't tase the guy with the cult sword and robes because "it's just weird robes and a glowy sword until he kills someone with it".

How about if the crew couldn't recognise 'disguised' items (e.g. sleepy pens, soap, thermals, voice changers, noslips) as Syndicate? Clearly, a revolver or energy sword is dangerous and a Syndie red flag, the space suits literally have the Syndicate colours on them... but disguised items - how about if they weren't illegal, just really odd to possess?

As long as we have the rule that traitors are unrestricted in their actions, players will remain unrestricted in dealing with them.

Letting traitors freely go on killing sprees when they need to steal some shoes while forcing people to play dumb just wouldn't work out. Nobody wants to sit in deadchat forever.

And nobody wants to restrict traitor actions either, so we're stuck in a place where the game is a highscore murder spree simulator vs validhunters.

TheNightingale wrote: We don't want to go full Bay

This is the issue right here. Policing of IC interactions has to be reasonably clear-cut in terms of policy and determining the OOC intent of the offender. When it comes to reading game logs, intent can be very hard to discern and can be easily misinterpreted the wrong way, so there's no easy middle ground when it comes to enforcing something like this that doesn't come hand in hand with another big list of policy.

I would just like to point out this guy has made three topics today, one asking a RD to be banned for out robusting him, one for nerfing bombs and now one for removing crew knowledge.
This isn't bay.

Having antagonists unrestricted by policy yet also protected by it is shit for sec and crew alike

hspace wrote:As a clown i sometimes poke security guards with normal pens and watch them scream "Parapen help now! bla bla hes a traitor get him!!" and then they proceed to drag me off to the brig and question me the entire round.

>I acted like an antag and got treat like one, plz ban

Nope, go away.

Literally unenforceable.

agree in theory but unless you're a genius who's stumbled on some sort of completely unthought of rule structure that makes this actually possible, enforceable and reasonably balanced it's a pipedream. i'm not really fond of the way current "crew knows everything" semi-metagame things turn out, especially for certain ling abilities like cryosting, which relies on a relatively long period without the easily grabbed hard-counter in coffee. as it is since everyone knows everything unless they are genuinely new they just grab some coffee and are totally fine, making the ability mostly worthless.

on the other hand, i can't really expect people to meta-know "i've been cryostung!" and then just sit there and fucking die.

so, i guess there might be a middle ground in there somewhere but in practice all it would really generate is people breaking any rule that says "don't meta these abilities" surreptitiously while pretending they have some other way of knowing about it. for the most part i doubt it would make a difference, and just generate an additional load of annoyance on admins because of all the adminhelps about someone hard countering ability X with item Y in a way that might possibly maybe indicate he knows how the ability works, which of course, he does.

I still remember the hilarious round where I was a ling HoS due to bugs or whatever, and I'm standing in the permabrig, right next to the warden, while talking to two prisoners in their cell.
One of the prisoners had tk, and grabs a pen on the table behind me and stabs me 20 times, so I assume that the warden next to me is also a ling, trying to sting me.

I whisper to him "I'm a ling too" and it explodes into this hilarious situation for the next 30 minutes with the warden trying to kill me for being a ling, and the rest of sec having no clue what the fuck is going on.

Anyway, putting someone in the brig for ages just for a pen prick is super dickish. If it's clearly not a sleepy pen (ie: it fucking mutes you), then give them a smack on the shins and be on your way. It's the damn clown, after all.

I think the basic standards of 'don't meta' that need to be upheld, is checking items to see if they're disguised traitor shit, if you don't have any other reason to suspect that they're a traitor.
IE: arresting a guy for breaking into EVA, and checking their shoes and mesons when they don't have any overt shit in their bag/pockets.

lumipharon wrote:I think the basic standards of 'don't meta' that need to be upheld, is checking items to see if they're disguised traitor shit, if you don't have any other reason to suspect that they're a traitor.
IE: arresting a guy for breaking into EVA, and checking their shoes and mesons when they don't have any overt shit in their bag/pockets.

On a certain level. But everyone HAS to know that flashes convert in rev, pens for gangs and so forth or the mode would be stupid on the part of sec/crew.

If you hear that people are getting flashed in the halls, that is reason to suspect rev.

If you find some guy who happens to have a flash, but you've heard nothing about rev/random flashings, then it's pretty shitty to implant them.

Another problem with not being allowed suspicion of 'disguised' items is that sometimes they aren't really disguised.

Nobody carries around a pen on its own except for criminal acts and practical jokes. The reason for that is because pens come free in the PDA. If you're searching someone, this is suspicious.

Same thing with paper. Nobody except perhaps the mime really has a use for blank paper on this server, so it's almost always worth checking it in hand just to be sure if it's cult marked or not.

Same with a gas mask or a set of mesons. Why would someone wear those if it's got absolutely nothing to do with their job? Why is someone wearing shoes that don't go with their uniform? Why is someone carrying around soap that literally says 'syndie' on it, or playing cards with a big 's' on the back?

You can't assume that it's well disguised because often it's not. Suggesting that players collectively act dumber than they are is silly.

lumipharon wrote:I still remember the hilarious round where I was a ling HoS due to bugs or whatever, and I'm standing in the permabrig, right next to the warden, while talking to two prisoners in their cell.
One of the prisoners had tk, and grabs a pen on the table behind me and stabs me 20 times, so I assume that the warden next to me is also a ling, trying to sting me.

I whisper to him "I'm a ling too" and it explodes into this hilarious situation for the next 30 minutes with the warden trying to kill me for being a ling, and the rest of sec having no clue what the fuck is going on.

Anyway, putting someone in the brig for ages just for a pen prick is super dickish. If it's clearly not a sleepy pen (ie: it fucking mutes you), then give them a smack on the shins and be on your way. It's the damn clown, after all.

I think the basic standards of 'don't meta' that need to be upheld, is checking items to see if they're disguised traitor shit, if you don't have any other reason to suspect that they're a traitor.
IE: arresting a guy for breaking into EVA, and checking their shoes and mesons when they don't have any overt shit in their bag/pockets.

Happy to say I once had an officer quite plainly ask me why I had two pairs of mesons, and they didn't test them for thermal vision. Sometimes, security aren't all terrible powergamers.

If you've managed to get yourself arrested I don't see a problem with someone getting the full security experience of a headset/eyegear check

Cheimon wrote:Nobody carries around a pen on its own except for criminal acts and practical jokes. The reason for that is because pens come free in the PDA. If you're searching someone, this is suspicious.

Same thing with paper. Nobody except perhaps the mime really has a use for blank paper on this server, so it's almost always worth checking it in hand just to be sure if it's cult marked or not.

If you or anyone else ever brig a guy for having a pen in his pocket or having loose paper, I'm secbanning you. I completely agree that overt traitor items should be public knowledge, but covert stuff (sleepy pen, shoes, etc) shouldn't.

Also: FYI no slips are paintable and don't have a different inspect anymore. Fuck meta.

I carry around pens all the time for writing spooky notes to leave in people's workplaces while they're out,.

They just said suspicious vekter not that he would brig for that alone. Most of the hidden items other than used sleepy pens have checking methods anyway cult papers even have an explicit one specifically meant to make them obvious in hand.

People wearing mesons isn't very suspicious the darkness and vision system is a piece of trash where blind men get lost without the lights on disregarding it with mesons is about the only joy it produces.

Incomptinence wrote:They just said suspicious vekter not that he would brig for that alone. Most of the hidden items other than used sleepy pens have checking methods anyway cult papers an explicit one.

Malkevin previously stated that carrying a pen or poking someone with it is equivalent to being a traitor, so _._

Cheimon is not Malkevin.

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:

Incomptinence wrote:They just said suspicious vekter not that he would brig for that alone. Most of the hidden items other than used sleepy pens have checking methods anyway cult papers an explicit one.

Malkevin previously stated that carrying a pen or poking someone with it is equivalent to being a traitor, so _._

I said that going around, acting like an antag, is volunteering yourself for 'fun'

If you weren't randomly poking people with a pen to volunteer to be a sec officers fun, then my only conclusion is that you're being an irritating cunt - in which case you can go fuck your self if you're going to be a whiney bitch on top of that

Why is it that you people that can't accept the meta play can't go to one of the half dozen other servers, some of which even splintered off from here, that support your views on meta play?

Why must you continue to degrade the ethos of this server?


Antags don't get protection because they don't have restrictions, it is only logical.

You got wrecked for being stupid with your pen. Git gud. Hide parapens in your PDAs and only take them out when necessary.

If security finds you with a spraycan even when its not a gang round you still get beat into crit for being a gangster.

Incoming wrote:Literally unenforceable.

Malkevin wrote:Antags don't get protection because they don't have restrictions, it is only logical.

I'm Game Master because my ability to emptyquote is unmatched.

Vekter wrote:

Cheimon wrote:Nobody carries around a pen on its own except for criminal acts and practical jokes. The reason for that is because pens come free in the PDA. If you're searching someone, this is suspicious.

Same thing with paper. Nobody except perhaps the mime really has a use for blank paper on this server, so it's almost always worth checking it in hand just to be sure if it's cult marked or not.

If you or anyone else ever brig a guy for having a pen in his pocket or having loose paper, I'm secbanning you. I completely agree that overt traitor items should be public knowledge, but covert stuff (sleepy pen, shoes, etc) shouldn't.

Also: FYI no slips are paintable and don't have a different inspect anymore. Fuck meta.

Whatever, if someone's running around stabbing people with pens I'm happy to arrest him for petty assault. This sort of stuff isn't stuff you find when you arrest someone, you have to search them, which means you're either in the brig anyway or they're only getting brigged if you're sure of what they got. In the case of paper, it's not disguised, it's just a physical marking rather than a visual one.

Covert items shouldn't need meta stupidity around them. They should either be a good enough disguise to fool everyone, or not. As far as I can tell this sort of stuff, disguised mesons, pens, fancy papers, all that could reasonably come up in training for security officers. The point isn't that nobody knows what it is, the point is that it's a good initial disguise, better than just being called 'syndicate thermals'. It's not there to save you from a thorough search. Incidentally, that's why I disliked the shoes change, it took the risk out of no-slips entirely. It wasn't metagaming to examine the grip on shoes that didn't match the job: it actually made sense in character.

Just fill your peppersprayer with water then drag them over - if they fall they are normal, if they remain standing they are a witch traitor

Plus water is a more robust stun than pepperspray anyway.

Malkevin wrote:Just fill your peppersprayer with water then drag them over - if they fall they are normal, if they remain standing they are a witch traitor

Plus water is a more robust stun than pepperspray anyway.

hmmmm never realised the pepperspray acted like a normal sprayer.

Can I fill it with acid and melt off traitors faces?

Yes

Not really. Acid isn't nearly as potent as it used to be - I sprayed someone as a hacked mediborg about ten times, and nothing happened. Fill your pepperspray with ClF3, though, and everyone will love you.

CPTANT wrote:

Malkevin wrote:Just fill your peppersprayer with water then drag them over - if they fall they are normal, if they remain standing they are a witch traitor

Plus water is a more robust stun than pepperspray anyway.

hmmmm never realised the pepperspray acted like a normal sprayer.

Can I fill it with acid and melt off traitors faces?

Shouldn't be able to IIRC

When acid got nerfed into the floor, I believe the check to stop you from putting it in sprays was removed.
I don't know for certain, since acid is shit now and not worth using.

It can be put in sprays. I already told you this vekter and I even linked the PRs.

if the mediborg module is anything to go by it's useless, you spray 'em 5 times with no discernible effect

at least it's better than it used to be. i still remember chemistrev, with their 2 hit kill concealable spraybottles that melted through any armor or hardsuits, permanently destroying them

please god no

NikNakFlak wrote:It can be put in sprays. I already told you this vekter and I even linked the PRs.

Why do I always fucking forget this is a thing noa