/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:01 am**

I was mulling around a while back, and a lizard was just standing there minding his business when a greyshirt threw him into another human. This wouldn't be a problem, but immediately three secborgs came up and started beating the shit out of him screaming : "HARM! HARM! HARM!" while rubbing their nipples since they knew they could do this and not get in trouble for it.

So if non-humans are unwillingly thrown into humans, dealing brute, should this be an enabler for bloodthirsty borgs or be passed off as an accident.

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:06 am**

That sounds hilarious

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:19 am**

That sounds stupid did they even arrest the person who threw the lizard? This sounds very fishy.

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:19 am**

I didn't know secborgs had nipples.

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:28 am**

It was in reference to this

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:27 am**

Reference is nice and well, but MUH VALIDS over this kinda shit goes too far, doesn't it?

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:33 am**

O no, an unexpected situation has arisen that caused players to beat the crap out of each other.

better make new rules and enact strict OOC intervention to prevent any type of fun occurring in the future.

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:42 am**

As hilarious as that is, doesn't that mean if I throw a spear at someone, secborg should baton the spear into submission? Fuck no, arrest the one tossing it.

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:48 am**

The consequences of playing as a Lizard, also known as a Non-Human.

The lizards should organise a protest outside of the brig some time, they should use the name "Lizard Lives Matter". Sure it'll work over well.

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:15 pm**

Technically its a shared harm crime in my eyes, on one instance because you can only detain one just give both a warning.

If the lizard continues and consents to being thrown, give him a beating with safety off and leave him to walk back to medbay by himself, arrest the repeatedly throwing human if they continue and try and state a reason why if they shout DINDU NUFFIN.

Ideally separate the two.

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:28 pm**

NikNakFlak wrote:That sounds hilarious

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:41 pm**

Remove lizard

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:44 pm**

No, no, all problems can be solved by making synthetics lizardmov.

It should also balance out the mechanical disadvantage from not being able to get hulk.

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:45 pm**

NikNakFlak wrote:That sounds hilarious

Seriously, playing lizard or catperson is like playing mime or clown, you can expect to be abused more, it's part of the fun.

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:33 pm**

CPTANT wrote:O no, an unexpected situation has arisen that caused players to beat the crap out of each other.

better make new rules and enact strict OOC intervention to prevent any type of fun occurring in the future.

This. FUN DETECTED, MUST REMOVE FUN.

Basically OP, don't play as a lizard if you don't want to be treated like you're second class. Also, admins will almost always let something pass, or mostly pass if it's absolutely hilarious.

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:04 pm**

i see no problem

if you don't want to get beaten to death don't get thrown

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:15 pm**

Cik wrote:i see no problem

if you don't want to get beaten to death don't get thrown

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:14 pm**

Beating a lizardperson for being thrown wouldn't stop any future harm, since you can throw a dead body too. Arresting the thrower would, though.

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:16 pm**

Tell that a synth who wants a valid kill.

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:31 pm**

Amelius wrote: Basically OP, don't play as a lizard if you don't want to be treated like you're second class.

there's a difference between being treated as second class and just being shit because "lawl dey lizards i can do it :^)))". being treated as second class would be not having to follow law 2 orders/being called liggers/being pushed, but being beaten to death for something they had no control over is just someone being a shit validhunter.

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:16 pm**

Arrest lizard. Arrest thrower. Problem solved.

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:37 pm**

What is rule 1, anyway?

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:41 pm**

"Don't be a dick". Don't mistreat other players just because you can - or especially if you can't -, because they're people too, and you should take their feelings into account.

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:26 pm**

TheNightingale wrote:Don't mistreat other players just because you can

Maybe it is not "just because they can", maybe instead that they dislike lizards, have IC reasoning to do so?

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:27 pm**

I'd tell the thrower off for performing willful bodily harm with a body, and give the ligger a warning smack with a baton and tell them not to be thrown again tbh

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:32 pm**

If you suspect that the lizard and human were co-operating, make the human execute the lizard

otherwise beat the lizard for harming a human with their snowflake spikes, and haul off the thrower for throwing a dangerous bioweapon at another human

or of course, kill the lizard because lizards are always valid as soon as they cause harm thats the law.

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:41 pm**

Scones wrote:
TheNightingale wrote:Don't mistreat other players just because you can
Maybe it is not "just because they can", maybe instead that they dislike lizards, have IC reasoning to do so?

"My character is racist" isn't an excuse, just as "my character is crazy" isn't. Actual IC reasoning, like "This particular lizard stole my RCD and walled me in a maint room" is a whole lot different from "gas teh ligger xD xD race war now".

Being overly hostile to all lizardpeople specifically because they're lizardpeople isn't nice, given that there's an actual player behind those sprites. If you really want to get your racism fix on, join the KKK or something. (Actually, don't.)

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:06 am**

or: everyone stops being so tense about getting smacked once every billion rounds and embraces the hilarious bullshit that happens.

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:28 am**

It's really an issue with borgs being incredibly bloodthirsty. As a lizard, I feel like borgs are more of an antagonist to me than actual antags are because they can get away with it.

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:51 am**

TheNightingale wrote:"My character is racist" isn't an excuse

It is, it has been, and it will be. What part of "Play a second-class citizen, get treated like one" don't people understand? If you want an inclusive space cantina, perhaps Baystation would be better suited to your needs and interests.

Zilenan91 wrote:It's really an issue with borgs being incredibly bloodthirsty. As a lizard, I feel like borgs are more of an antagonist to me than actual antags are because they can get away with it.

It's probably because they enjoy a strange amount of protections in a rule system where they are governed by IC and OOC rulings at once. It's more of a flaw with design of both of those sets of rules. Secondarily, the amount a silicon can get away with is weirdly dependent on the admin you're dealing with. Some will support you killing a harmful nonhuman, others will ban you for it.

IMHO silicon rules should be all or nothing. Either laws are followed to a T or you face a ban for breaking character, or all laws that could potentially violate nebulous terms like "Don't be a dick" should be disregarded. Cloudiness does nobody any good.

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:58 am**

Silicons should be suspect to their laws, but brigging a lizard for 10 minutes for being in the same room as a spear (which they fucking did to me) should never be okay. When I play a borg, if a human ever tells me to directly ruin a lizards round I usually make up some bullshit to not have to do it because I'm not going to be the enabler of an asshole. Not coincidentally, most of the people I made excuses against have either been banned multiple times or permabanned for shit behavior, so...

I myself am fine with casual or somewhat active racism, I think it makes the game more fun in a lot of ways, but when you're going out of your way to actively dick people over and ruin somebodies round is when you become a problem and rule 1 territory.

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:44 am**

Did the lizard cause harm deliberately? Yes destroy it entirely without hesitation, no toss it in the brig.

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:53 am**

>Quick, something unexpected is happening, ban it!

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:08 am**

It's more like "someone is deliberately being an asshole over a loose interpretation of the rules he has to stick to".

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:23 am**

Lizards are an optional choice.

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:26 am**

Just gonna copy and paste something I wrote on github here...

SS13 is a roleplaying game, so, if people choose to play a lizard, they build relationships using this lizard with other people that effect how the game plays for them in a very permanent way. Forcing people to toss this social dynamic out because of a single job that can shit on you is awful. It has nothing to do with racism, if anything, racism is good for lizard characters, it creates conflict, that assuming it isn't escalated ridiculously, is very fun and interesting.

The reason this is a problem now is because lizards have been in long enough for people to really remember how they conduct themselves. Through a cycle of roleplaying, lizard characters have built relationships with a lot of people on the server, so, the players being unwilling to toss out these characters and relationships they've grown attached to, want change to happen so that they can keep these relationships and keep having fun with the people they like to be around. It's just the natural cycle of roleplay and human interaction.

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:27 am**

Reiterating, there's such a thing as "roleplaying racism" and there's such a thing as "lol i can be an asshole to lizards with no repercussions".

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:20 pm**

DemonFiren wrote:Reiterating, there's such a thing as "roleplaying racism" and there's such a thing as "lol i can be an asshole to lizards with no repercussions".

One of the points of Asimov AI is that it is not the cuddly mechanical teddybear you want it to be, it is a ruthless and absolute machine that will stop at nothing to obey its laws.

2 options:

1. Stop being a pussy and deal with it.
2. Stop playing lizards.

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:30 pm**

I'd like to think the two aren't incompatible. Following your laws doesn't specifically mean "beat up lizardpeople, unless you actually have a law ordering you to do so. If a human is throwing something at another human, the first human - the thrower - is culpable here, and though you can't harm them, you can certainly break up the fight. If a lizardperson was throwing something at a human, you can harm them, in that they're nonhuman - but you don't have to (unless specifically ordered to, and even then you can often find a Law One reason not to). Stopping human harm could entail harmbatoning a lizardperson, yes (for example, a traitor lizard killing people), but it could also be as simple as flashing the combatants and dragging them away from each other. Regardless of how you feel about mutantraces, they're still controlled by players, and you should - unless it directly conflicts with your laws - still treat them the same as anyone else.

TL;DR if you're attacking lizardpeople because your laws don't say not to, space yourself from the Chapel mass driver. Your laws don't prohibit that either, and you'd be doing the station a favour.

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:45 pm**

TheNightingale wrote:I'd like to think the two aren't incompatible. Following your laws doesn't specifically mean "beat up lizardpeople, unless you actually have a law ordering you to do so. If a human is throwing something at another human, the first human - the thrower - is culpable here, and though you can't harm them, you can certainly break up the fight. If a lizardperson was throwing something at a human, you can harm them, in that they're nonhuman - but you don't have to (unless specifically ordered to, and even then you can often find a Law One reason not to). Stopping human harm could entail harmbatoning a lizardperson, yes (for example, a traitor lizard killing people), but it could also be as simple as flashing the combatants and dragging them away from each other. Regardless of how you feel about mutantraces, they're still controlled by players, and you should - unless it directly conflicts with your laws - still treat them the same as anyone else.

TL;DR if you're attacking lizardpeople because your laws don't say not to, space yourself from the Chapel mass driver. Your laws don't prohibit that either, and you'd be doing the station a favour.

Conflict is fun, nothing happening in a round is far worse than getting beaten once in a while.

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:34 pm**

There wouldn't really be an issue here if people were capable of using common fucking sense over lol valids.

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:59 pm**

We need safe lizards. They wouldn't be nearly as hurtful when thrown if we sanded down their tail spikes and frills.

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2015 3:07 pm**

Non-Asimov silicons can technically execute people for a whole range of reasons. That doesn't mean they have to, or are obligated to, or even allowed to. Law 1 does not mean "kill this lizard if it causes a scratch" (plus, corpses can still do harm, I think?) There are many ways to solve this -- including a nice harmbaton to the scales -- without murder.

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2015 3:23 pm**

I'd put this down to a "It was funny the first time but don't do it again because its fucking stupid".

I don't care if its "Valid", it still is basically a source of grief if overused.

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:08 pm**

bandit wrote:Non-Asimov silicons can technically execute people for a whole range of reasons. That doesn't mean they have to, or are obligated to, or even allowed to. Law 1 does not mean "kill this lizard if it causes a scratch" (plus, corpses can still do harm, I think?) There are many ways to solve this -- including a nice harmbaton to the scales -- without murder.

Up to the AI's indescretion, but much like captain, act like a cuck and go too far and people are going to very readily dislike you and scream AI malf inevitably, die a lawset lizardbeating hero or live to be a craven AI goody two shoes.

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:09 pm**

Zilenan91 wrote:When I play a borg, if a human ever tells me to directly ruin a lizards round I usually make up some bullshit to not have to do it because I'm not going to be the enabler of an asshole.

Sounds like you need a silicon ban.

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:29 pm**

Kor wrote:
Zilenan91 wrote:When I play a borg, if a human ever tells me to directly ruin a lizards round I usually make up some bullshit to not have to do it because I'm not going to be the enabler of an asshole.
Sounds like you need a silicon ban.

But this is how silicon laws work. Law One overrides Law Two, and if an action would probably lead to human harm (such as flooding plasma or letting the Syndicate operative into the Armory), don't do it. Is the lizardperson killing many humans? Go right ahead, ruin their day. After all, not doing so will lead to human harm. Is the lizardperson doing nothing? Probably best to leave them be so there aren't riots and fights and harm.

If another law says "Kill all nonhumans", that's what you do. If another law says "Flood plasma", you... feel conflicted, because plasma is harmful, but your laws say so (analyse the law priorities, which comes first? It depends if it's an ion/hacked law or if it says "Plasma isn't harmful"). Remember, as any silicon, your laws always come first - so doing something that might conceivably cause harm is a bad idea. Nothing's stopping you from tipping off Security whilst slowly syphoning the air in the lizardperson's room, either - if they're smart, they'll countermand the order.

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:02 pm**

TheNightingale wrote:
Kor wrote:
Zilenan91 wrote:When I play a borg, if a human ever tells me to directly ruin a lizards round I usually make up some bullshit to not have to do it because I'm not going to be the enabler of an asshole.
Sounds like you need a silicon ban.
But this is how silicon laws work. Law One overrides Law Two, and if an action would probably lead to human harm (such as flooding plasma or letting the Syndicate operative into the Armory), don't do it. Is the lizardperson killing many humans? Go right ahead, ruin their day. After all, not doing so will lead to human harm. Is the lizardperson doing nothing? Probably best to leave them be so there aren't riots and fights and harm.

If another law says "Kill all nonhumans", that's what you do. If another law says "Flood plasma", you... feel conflicted, because plasma is harmful, but your laws say so (analyse the law priorities, which comes first? It depends if it's an ion/hacked law or if it says "Plasma isn't harmful"). Remember, as any silicon, your laws always come first - so doing something that might conceivably cause harm is a bad idea. Nothing's stopping you from tipping off Security whilst slowly syphoning the air in the lizardperson's room, either - if they're smart, they'll countermand the order.

Laws come first yes. Lizards aren't protected by law 1, it doesn't apply to them at all. The human is law 2 ordering you to kill the lizard. Not killing the lizard is breaking your laws.

Jesus, if people can't understand the whole second class citizen thing for lizards, I think I need to go code race bans.

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:18 pm**

It's almost as if silicons comprise an disproportionate amount of policy and gameplay problems and may very well be the source thereof

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:51 pm**

What about "arrest the lizard and thrower for harm and the target for allowing harm" don't you understand. Sec has jackboots. GOOSESTEP!!!

/tg/Station 13

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