/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Sun May 25, 2014 11:59 pm**

Bottom post of the previous page:

There's been some disagreement within adminbus on exactly where the line should be drawn for "Atmos Metagaming". The main point of contention specifically is whether or not replacing pumps with manual valves should be bannable.

A lot of admins have been forbidding the use of manual valves in atmos, mostly because it's perceived to screw over the AI, but I have to disagree on this point. Manual pumps are hardly permanent, and are easily replaced. Most AIs have or will have engineering borgs that can replace these pumps and make the gas flow again. The AI honestly has enough going for it without having an admin-protected ability to gas the station at any time.

Atmos techs have barely anything else to do, especially if we're going to restrict what they can or can not do to their own departments. It may be an upsetting thing to happen but I don't believe it's something we should be getting the admins involved with. I'd just like us to give atmos techs a little more leeway with what they do in their own department.

I am hoping that we can come to a consensus with an official policy from a head admin.

Posted: **Sat May 31, 2014 11:39 am**

Yes you are allowed to know about antags. No you are not meant to prepare to shaft one specific antag every round because it might happen, you KNOW it is a might not an ALWAYS. Forcing a "choice" is removing a choice, if a meticulous metagamer changed these valves every round AIs would near never flood plasma that is simply how it would go down.

This would be like a scientist carrying a PAI signaller bomb combo every round because ooh someone might murder me better redtext em.

Posted: **Sat May 31, 2014 1:27 pm**

Psyentific wrote:AIs should not have special treatment.

Silicons are completely different from humans, treated differently both IC and OOC, have their own rules and now you're saying this. You make no sense.

Psyentific wrote:Plasma fires should not be a special case.

Singularity is a special case, bombs are a special case, but station-wide inferno should not be. You make no sense.

Psyentific wrote:People shouldn't have to pretend to be bad at their jobs to cater to special roles.

It's not atmos tech's job to cut off access to equipment for this specific player because they feel like it. And didn't you say that AIs should not have special treatment? Manual valves are exactly that.

Psyentific wrote:Under no circumstances should the AI be fucking with 'Plasma To Mix'

Under no circumstances should crew be fucking with Antimov. Yet we have it in upload.

Admittedly, I do think that the policy itself is kind of meh to say the least. Just remove manual valves. They literally serve no purpose other than have a valve that silicons cannot access.

Psyentific wrote:If an AI wants to roll atmos, get a goddamn engiborg

You're saying it like AI has any influence whatsoever over which borgs it will get and whether it will get them.

Basically in this thread a person who doesn't play certain jobs tries to convince people who play certain jobs of what the job consists of.

Posted: **Sat May 31, 2014 2:10 pm**

Well some borgs ask nicely what you want. Nice things don't have much to do with the utopsya though, where the AI is probably forced to be carded at round start by antag protected staff* every round etc, forever.

* No special treatment for those traitors waiting to happen.

Posted: **Sat May 31, 2014 3:05 pm**

A little known fact is that you can hack the PA. One wire, if cut, will disable interfacing with the PA. Doing this completely blocks out the AI, most borgs, and a lot of people.

What if you cut the cameras in the SMES room? AIs don't need to be touching it, now you almost completely AI-proofed engineering. Afterall, the singularity can end the round.

Why not cut cameras in tcomms too? AI has no need to look in there and disabling tcomms is a signature move of rogue AIs.

Just incase, tell the RD to cut his cameras near his office. If an AI didn't already dismantle the computer, hide the board, and steal the second board and hide that, without getting caught, before the AI decides to reveal it's perma-traitorness again, the AI should git gud.

Also the AI doesn't need cyborgs to be gud, order all the borgs to come to robotics to get AI law sync severed. If they don't come, they're obviously rogue and can be blown up.

Oh, it's horrible to fight in zero gravity. Better cut cameras in there too.

Lets deconstruct the upload consoles too. Afterall, they're only a tool to grief and faggot traitors need to git gud and not rely on another player to win for them.

You're not robust unless you ask the chemist for 15u of thermite as soon as you finish setting up the singulo.

Last but not least, if the AI does not respond to you within five seconds, it's obviously rogue and you should card it to check. Continue carding every ten minutes as the AI will always be rogue at some point this round.

Doing all of that should be 100% legit since there's nowhere in the rules that states that AIs get special treatment. Afterall, the AI needs to git gud and be able to kill 40+ people borgless without breaking a sweat, even if it just needed one guy dead since it's a proud tradition to suicidally charge any antag when it won't benefit you at all en mass.

Nowhere in the rules does it state that I can't do all of--

"Don't be a dick"

>>>>>>>>weak policy

"Metagaming"

<Insert validsalid/imblyimg/ausops rhetoric here>

"Powergaming"

Git gud

(don't actually do that)

Posted: **Sat May 31, 2014 4:14 pm**

Psyentific wrote:A non-rogue AI has no reason to touch 'Plasma Output' in any given scenario.

I've personally killed three entire hives full of xenomorphs with precise plasma floods. No reason my ass.

Posted: **Sat May 31, 2014 4:16 pm**

Man that shit needs a more comprehensive guide. I'd love to use atmos in more offensive ways like that, especially to purge guncargo during rev rounds when I'm paladin by bolting the doors and gassing them like the filthy fucking je- antags they are.

Posted: **Sat May 31, 2014 4:23 pm**

Any Alien that dies to a plasma fire deserves to lose their alien badge.

Here's the situation from both sides perspectives.

Side 1: Many other jobs revolve around setting up and securing their work stations, one of the vital roles of a Atmo Tech is to ensure the atmo system is secure. There is no rule on players being forced to forget events from previous rounds, as such the most common method of plasma flooding is from Silicon's, thus it is not unreasonable for atmo tech's to take reasonable steps to hinder this via the method of replacing several digital valves with manual valves.

If no other job is hindered or stopped from fortifying and securing their work area, why is atmospherics exempt?

Side 2: Removing the digital valves only targets Silicon's, plasma flooding is still easy to execute by non-Silicon's. It is a clear definition of metagaming and dickish behaviour by players explicitly targeting Silicon's and hindering their ability to exploit plasma flooding.

Removing the digital valves is a clear violation of several rules, and is a dick move to pull on Silicon's when no suspicion is warranted.

That's where we stand, from my perspective.

Posted: **Sat May 31, 2014 4:39 pm**

What if an atmos tech decides, plasma is a bad thing and reworks atmos so all the dangerous gases are unable to go into distro?

Would that be metagaming?

As far as I'm concerned, as a competent player, that makes sense

Everyone is arguing about the manual valves to stop AIs, but honestly, the manual valving of the mix to distro line doesn't happen that much

Posted: **Sat May 31, 2014 5:22 pm**

If you are going to make a modification that prevents AI and only AI from flooding plasma, why don't you just card it at the start of every round?

Oh wait, that will get you banned.

Posted: **Sat May 31, 2014 7:42 pm**

Neerti wrote:-snip-

I'm genuinely curious, is that a sarcasm?

Posted: **Sat May 31, 2014 7:55 pm**

It is.

Posted: **Sat May 31, 2014 8:08 pm**

It's sarcastic but a few people do some of that sometimes too.

Posted: **Sat May 31, 2014 8:44 pm**

I think at this point we should just make a general Powergaming/Metagaming thread.

Posted: **Sat May 31, 2014 9:31 pm**

Why not edit the maps to make it impossible to disable AIs ability to flood plasma without breaking atmos entirely?

Posted: **Sat May 31, 2014 9:40 pm**

Because that's reverse handholding. Go onto LLA, ghost into atmos. They've edited the map to manual valve all the tanks - all the tanks. If we do the opposite, make plasma floods an inherent, irremovable possibility of the system and network? I think that's shitty and I can't give you a good reason why.

Posted: **Sat May 31, 2014 11:03 pm**

>liberty station
>not casual as fuck

opinion double discarded

Posted: **Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:00 pm**

Definition for this post: Banable metagaming: Using prior round knowledge or ooc knowledge to mess with antagonist/round types.

Examples of bannable metagaming currently enforced via policy:
- We ban AI's for round start bolting / messing with the following areas at round start: Toxins, Telesci, Armory, EVA, Virology, Teleporter
- We ban wardens, HoSs and captain for hiding the conetent of the armory at round start

The meta-knowledge in this cases all relates to:
Antagonists using these areas or needing items from these areas as either a goal or help them reach their goal more easily or because their antagonist status lets them exploit the department/area to it's full potential.

In the same line of sight the following should be banned:
Tempering with atmos to make it's sabotage harder and/or impossible.

This would include, but not limited to, replacing AI interactable parts with AI non-interactable parts, repiping atmos in a way that can't be undone or flooding the distro-circuit with so much air that it becomes practicaly unsabotage-able for the remainder of the round.

Posted: **Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:13 pm**

Why dont they just add in manual valves in as well?

Posted: **Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:40 pm**

Blonkz wrote:Definition for this post: Banable metagaming: Using prior round knowledge or ooc knowledge to mess with antagonist/round types.

Examples of bannable metagaming currently enforced via policy:
- We ban AI's for round start bolting / messing with the following areas at round start: Toxins, Telesci, Armory, EVA, Virology, Teleporter
- We ban wardens, HoSs and captain for hiding the conetent of the armory at round start

The meta-knowledge in this cases all relates to:
Antagonists using these areas or needing items from these areas as either a goal or help them reach their goal more easily or because their antagonist status lets them exploit the department/area to it's full potential.

In the same line of sight the following should be banned:
Tempering with atmos to make it's sabotage harder and/or impossible.

This would include, but not limited to, replacing AI interactable parts with AI non-interactable parts, repiping atmos in a way that can't be undone or flooding the distro-circuit with so much air that it becomes practicaly unsabotage-able for the remainder of the round.

I take issue with that last one, unless you mean something like using a filter to jam 50,000 kpa of air into the circuit. But putting 9000 KPA into distro using a volume pump isn't that crazy, and you can get 9000 kpa out of the distro circuit in a not insanely long amount of time. Open distro to waste, open a few rooms to space, turn off the external checks...

Posted: **Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:39 pm**

Reminder: My post was about start-of-the-round "fixing" of atmos. Thus the "remainder of the round" are 20 to 45++ minutes.

To clarify: I am talking about dumping (almost) the entire o2 and nitrogen tank into the distro, via filters or over-pressurised cans and the like. Which also tends to happen to break the server, not something that can be "repaired" during the remainder of the round, like you mentioned.

Posted: **Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:43 pm**

Yeah, filling Distro with air is actually SOP for atmos - That's what happens when you replace the important pumps with volumetric pumps. If you include that under bannable metagaming, just remove atmo tech altogether and put the pipe dispensers in tool storage.

Posted: **Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:04 pm**

Well that's why I'm looking for a little clarification. If we're talking about ridiculous pressures you have to do weird things to achieve, that's metagaming. If we're talking about turning the starting pump up to 4500, or even sticking in a volume pump for 9000, I don't think that's really metagaming. It's pretty easy to drain down 9000 kpa in distro, and it's actually helpful to the station if there's a large breach.

If you're doing anything that compromises atmos's built in ability to distribute its various gasses, you're metagaming (and the IC justification is that you're a frigging tech, you operate the system, you don't redesign it)

At least, that's how I see it as someone who played CE and atmos tech a fair amount, back when I actually played...

Posted: **Fri Jun 06, 2014 6:45 am**

Doesn't the Atmo Guide tell you to do that when your setting up atmo for "robust" efficiency? I would be gob smacked if that was declared meta gaming.

Posted: **Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:19 pm**

The atmos guide is... better than nothing... but it's not a very good guide. putting 315 kpa into distro is a joke, you might as well just turn the pump off.

In my opinion, engineers and atmos techs should just be merged. Atmos techs don't have enough to do, so all they can do is babysit the gasses and make sure the AI isn't doing anything bad. If they don't mind wasting their time, they can set up the turbine, but that thing's useless since the singularity could power 10 stations. They can go around and set up all the air alarms to filter toxins and nitrous, at least the ones they have access to, I guess, but that's boring and useless 99% of the time.

If atmos techs and engineers were merged, then they'd have a lot more to do, so they wouldn't be so tempted to do metagamey things against the AI.

Posted: **Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:21 pm**

damiac wrote:The atmos guide is... better than nothing... but it's not a very good guide. putting 315 kpa into distro is a joke, you might as well just turn the pump off.

In my opinion, engineers and atmos techs should just be merged. Atmos techs don't have enough to do, so all they can do is babysit the gasses and make sure the AI isn't doing anything bad. If they don't mind wasting their time, they can set up the turbine, but that thing's useless since the singularity could power 10 stations. They can go around and set up all the air alarms to filter toxins and nitrous, at least the ones they have access to, I guess, but that's boring and useless 99% of the time.

If atmos techs and engineers were merged, then they'd have a lot more to do, so they wouldn't be so tempted to do metagamey things against the AI.

Setting it to 315 has a very specific and narrow set of uses - namely, preventing normal pipe restructuring while leaving the option open, such as if you want to pump burn mix into an alien nest through the vents.

I'm probably the only person who's ever wanted to do this until now.

Posted: **Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:30 pm**

Psyentific wrote:Yeah, filling Distro with air is actually SOP for atmos - That's what happens when you replace the important pumps with volumetric pumps. If you include that under bannable metagaming, just remove atmo tech altogether and put the pipe dispensers in tool storage.

Since you seem unwilling to respond to the point(s) being made and concentrate on arbitrary shit I'd like to know whats wrong.

It seems to me that you are either unable or unwilling to discuss this topic. Am I mistaken? If I am then I'd ask you to stop taking posts out of context. Thanks!

Posted: **Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:05 pm**

Pandarsenic wrote:
damiac wrote:The atmos guide is... better than nothing... but it's not a very good guide. putting 315 kpa into distro is a joke, you might as well just turn the pump off.

In my opinion, engineers and atmos techs should just be merged. Atmos techs don't have enough to do, so all they can do is babysit the gasses and make sure the AI isn't doing anything bad. If they don't mind wasting their time, they can set up the turbine, but that thing's useless since the singularity could power 10 stations. They can go around and set up all the air alarms to filter toxins and nitrous, at least the ones they have access to, I guess, but that's boring and useless 99% of the time.

If atmos techs and engineers were merged, then they'd have a lot more to do, so they wouldn't be so tempted to do metagamey things against the AI.
Setting it to 315 has a very specific and narrow set of uses - namely, preventing normal pipe restructuring while leaving the option open, such as if you want to pump burn mix into an alien nest through the vents.

I'm probably the only person who's ever wanted to do this until now.

Yeah, but that assumes it's not really easy to drain distro down. Which is really is. And in fact, it's quite useful to have more than 315 kpa in distro. It's also useful to keep the option of putting other stuff in distro, which is why you don't want to overpressurize it so much it's actually hard to drain down. To me a good cutoff point is what a volumetric pump can put out, 9000 kpa. You have to do something wild and crazy to get more than 9000 kpa in distro. Although honestly, 4500 with the starting pump is plenty.

Sticking manual valves on the plasma tanks helps nobody, unless it so happens the AI is rogue. In fact, it prevents the AI from helping the crew, for example, if the AI wanted to help burn some aliens.

Posted: **Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:33 pm**

315 makes it slightly harder to fuck with atmos.

Volumetric Pumping makes ATMO STRONG

Posted: **Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:41 pm**

If engineering and atmos is merged what will be done with the atmospherics hardsuit? Will it just be a mad rush of all the engineers trying to get it because it's fireproof and a direct upgrade from the normal hardsuit? If you ask me, only the engineering and advanced (CE) hardsuits should allow for integrated welding protection. That would make them less shit in comparison.

Posted: **Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:51 pm**

Atmos is a horrible death trap waiting to happen, there is NO GOOD REASON to why there is even a possibility of putting anything but nitrogen and oxygen into the distribution, so why does this possibility exist? So people can set fire to the station and lag everyone to fuck

You've got to look at it from a corporate viewpoint and justify it with bullshit logic and terminology like...
"The risk of plasma floods promote positive synergy."
"Exposure of employees to plasma floods in in the past has produced major discoveries in plasma research (i.e. exposing plasma to heat sources seems to cause massive infernos and sets people on fire while breathing plasma seems to cause death.)"
or
"Plasma fires produce corpses which increase productivity in food production while increasing profits by downsizing the station staff."

Here's an idea that might be worth trying though. What if we made it so that regular pumps were ID locked and required atmos authorization to manipulate? Manual valves on the other hand, wouldn't require any authorization to fuck around with. So basically if you replace the pumps to the harmful gasses with manual pumps, good job, you've fucked up the AI's abilities to fuck with atmos. At the same time, you've granted any and every shitlord on the station the ability to fuck with atmospherics.

Posted: **Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:46 am**

paprika wrote:If engineering and atmos is merged what will be done with the atmospherics hardsuit? Will it just be a mad rush of all the engineers trying to get it because it's fireproof and a direct upgrade from the normal hardsuit? If you ask me, only the engineering and advanced (CE) hardsuits should allow for integrated welding protection. That would make them less shit in comparison.

Remove Engineering hardsuits, replace with recoloured softsuits. Keep the CE's hardsuit.

Posted: **Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:22 am**

What the fuck will that serve, it'll just make engineering suits even more useless and make people scramble for atmos suits more, what?

Posted: **Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:08 am**

damiac wrote:The atmos guide is... better than nothing... but it's not a very good guide. putting 315 kpa into distro is a joke, you might as well just turn the pump off.

In my opinion, engineers and atmos techs should just be merged. Atmos techs don't have enough to do, so all they can do is babysit the gasses and make sure the AI isn't doing anything bad. If they don't mind wasting their time, they can set up the turbine, but that thing's useless since the singularity could power 10 stations. They can go around and set up all the air alarms to filter toxins and nitrous, at least the ones they have access to, I guess, but that's boring and useless 99% of the time.

If atmos techs and engineers were merged, then they'd have a lot more to do, so they wouldn't be so tempted to do metagamey things against the AI.

I'd honestly rather see it that atmos techs just get more to do. Atmos is like the less responsible version of engineering and it's a great job to have if you just want to relax and mess around with gases. That's what I see most people who play atmos using the job for. With the mining overhaul and stuff there should remain a few "relaxation" jobs where you can do just about nothing while still being useful.
Service doesn't really count since they aren't useful 99% of the time. Drinking is only for RP and food vendors exist, meaning the bar and kitchen aren't really important. Botany can make some neat shit though.

Posted: **Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:48 pm**

paprika wrote:What the fuck will that serve, it'll just make engineering suits even more useless and make people scramble for atmos suits more, what?

Remove Atmo hardsuits, they have firesuits, they don't need them. Patching breaches, they can have softsuits or use EVA like everyone else.

Posted: **Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:08 pm**

You do know that atmos/CE hardsuits are the literal only counter to the AI flooding their core with burning plasma right

Posted: **Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:12 pm**

Technically its the CE's RIG, the Atmo Tech's Hardsuit and a Firesuit.

Personally I don't agree with removing the Atmo and Engi Hardsuits at this stage, if there is a decision to merge Engineers and Atmo Techs into one role then maybe we can look at the Atmo Hardsuit.

Though I think a better alternative would be to remove the Engi's Hardsuit's flash protection and add a slip down internal wielding mask. Same for the Atmo's Hardsuit but no Wielding Mask.

Posted: **Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:19 am**

Yeah flash protection on the hardsuits is a little shit. It should be exclusive to sunglasses and would make it so people don't rock around with hardsuit helmets on just for the flash and flashbang protection.

Syndie hardsuit helmets should keep it for obvious reasons. The SWAT helmet is the more robust but flash-vulnerable alternative to the blood red helmet.

Posted: **Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:45 am**

I just realised I posted in the completely wrong thread about my pull request to remove manual valves from the dispenser... though I suppose it doesn't matter because Giacom closed it 10 minutes after with no chance of discussion

And yes, codewise the only difference between digital valves and manual valves is that digital valves allow silicons to use it and manual valves don't

Posted: **Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:12 pm**

hard suits have flash protection because like, you wear them in space. The sun is very bright in space, and stuff. People that run around wearing just the hardsuit helmet are massive fucking shits though.
Also engineering hardsuit has (some?) radiation protection, pretty sure the atmos suit doesn't.

IC wise, you have nitrogen and oxygen for pumping air for distro, co2 for storing co2 from people breathing (of course in reality spacemen don't turn oxygen into co2...), N2O is for uh.... putting people under/riot control? I unno. Plasma is there because it's a plasma research station.

Is there a non manual version of this sort of valve?

Posted: **Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:29 pm**

Actually you do remove oxygen moles from the tiles atmos datum and replace it with co2

Posted: **Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:58 pm**

oh man I know how to IC justify plasma.

Make an admin event/button that instantly sets plasma to flood the station while sending a Centcom announcement saying station purge systems have been activated. Fluff it so it's an alternative to Centcom activating the nuke.

There, done.

Posted: **Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:55 pm**

imblyings wrote:oh man I know how to IC justify plasma.

Make an admin event/button that instantly sets plasma to flood the station while sending a Centcom announcement saying station purge systems have been activated. Fluff it so it's an alternative to Centcom activating the nuke.

There, done.

We already have random events that cause atmospheric anomalies, but I don't think the actual atmos system is involved in them. Perhaps it should be a rarer event. There's precedent for having events that unleash viruses and shit.

Posted: **Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:08 pm**

The N2O is for surgeries (ha! ha!) and riot control.

Posted: **Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:44 am**

Pandarsenic wrote:wizard control.

Posted: **Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:23 pm**

lumipharon wrote:hard suits have flash protection because like, you wear them in space. The sun is very bright in space, and stuff.

Also they're used for EVA construction and repairs so it makes sense for them to have eye protection for like welding and shit since you couldn't exactly wear a welding mask in space. An alternative to removing the flash protection would be to change it to more of a welding mask thing. Like the helmet would have a visor that needs to be lowered to protect you from flashes and light given off from welders but it also reduces your vision significantly.

Posted: **Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:43 am**

give the AI a mini-atmos room only accessible from its core that atmos techs don't have access to

fluff: backup atmos in well-fortified area to resist sabotage

Posted: **Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:12 am**

Deuce wrote:give the AI a mini-atmos room only accessible from its core that atmos techs don't have access to

fluff: backup atmos in well-fortified area to resist sabotage

No thats safe and hugbox, its easy enough to fix atmos in 30 seconds from even the most insane damage with a few people with any idea of how to place a pipe

lumipharon wrote:co2 for storing co2 from people breathing

They do, just not much.

Posted: **Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:06 am**

It was suggested here, so lets see how this goes.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/4550

Posted: **Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:38 am**

For what purpose? You can't really metagame anyways, you'll get bwoinked. Leave manual valves alone.

This is a really bad thing.

Posted: **Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:33 am**

Yeah that's a bit much, there are plenty of legitimate places for manual valves

Posted: **Mon Aug 25, 2014 11:42 am**

Ikarrus wrote:It was suggested here, so lets see how this goes.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/4550

Didn't I already try to get that change pulled?

/tg/Station 13

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