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Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:29 pm
by CPTANT
I have seen it happen sporadically that admins have closed complaints directed against themselves.
It gives admins the abillity to simply dismiss any discussion about their own conduct and is a complete abuse of power.
Can we please make it clear that this is completely unacceptable behaviour?
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:46 pm
by Saegrimr
Most admins don't have forum administrator rights to the admin complaints section. Pretty much only headmins and people who are forum mods anyway.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:09 pm
by CPTANT
Well I would like to hope that headmins are wise enough to realize why handling your own complaints is a very bad idea.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:00 pm
by imblyings
This is a complaint leveled against me not other admins or headmins, who have done nothing of the sort and I trust never will.
This thread's not worth the time, I trust admins wouldn't normally close their complaints but Tornadium is a special, persistent case and I don't care to bother arguing with him, since he's displayed a knack for bogging people down in horrible lengthy tldrs. This is essentially rule 0 taken to it's extreme and I still don't think my actions have been detrimental in any way whatsoever.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:44 pm
by oranges
the host shouldn't have a say in bans anyway, at this point they're more a systems administrator than a "host"
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:47 pm
by Tornadium
oranges wrote:the host shouldn't have a say in bans anyway, at this point they're more a systems administrator than a "host"
Headmins have to be accountable to someone.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:17 pm
by oranges
Tornadium wrote:oranges wrote:the host shouldn't have a say in bans anyway, at this point they're more a systems administrator than a "host"
Headmins have to be accountable to someone.
they're accountable to the players through 6 monthly elections.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:25 pm
by lollerderby
This is policy discussion, not ban appeals or admin complaints. Stop.
On topic, closing complaints against yourself should be prohibited for obvious reasons. You don't necessarily have to respond to a complaint against you, but if it's a stupid complaint another head admin can close it.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 1:46 am
by rdght91
imblyings wrote:This is a complaint leveled against me not other admins or headmins, who have done nothing of the sort and I trust never will.
This thread's not worth the time, I trust admins wouldn't normally close their complaints but Tornadium is a special, persistent case and I don't care to bother arguing with him, since he's displayed a knack for bogging people down in horrible lengthy tldrs. This is essentially rule 0 taken to it's extreme and I still don't think my actions have been detrimental in any way whatsoever.
I know Tornadium is a retard and we all know it's a bullshit complaint, but there's a good reason no one should ever handle a complaint their personally involved in.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 4:19 am
by TechnoAlchemist
if the other headmins were against it they would step in, they regulate themselves.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 4:34 am
by Durandan
If the other headmins are ok with closing the complaint they can do it themselves. Not fucking with admin complaints against yourself is just good policy tbh
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:44 am
by imblyings
This thread's right it should never happen and I'm honestly knowingly breaking the rules for closing my own complaints. I stand by what I've done however.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 6:10 am
by Helios
Just PM other admins to close it instead. I know it is a meaningless formality but it just doesn't look right to lock it
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:49 am
by Tornadium
Well he's still being immature and locking his own Complaint threads.
Abuse of the system like this is extremely extremely sad.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:53 am
by imblyings
I have nothing to lose and this server has everything to gain.
What a shame I don't act more civilized about it.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:14 pm
by peoplearestrange
As i've said in other threads:
Of course its not acceptable and it 99% of cases it doesnt happen. However if and when it ever does happen, simply PM a forum admin or Global mod (such as myself) and we can reopen said topic. Closing a topic doesnt give it a one way unbreakable seal, of course it seems silly to reopen a topic years/months old, but thats not this case.
From what I can see MSO didn't step in as a host, he stepped in and re-opened as a forum admin. I'm sure most of us would have done the same upon request.
There are a fair few global mods and admins, so chances are one of them will help out if you think there is an issue. This is one of the reasons why we are a collective of people and not just under 1 person. The same reason that headmin is given to 3 people rather than 1.
The issue as I see it is that people either don't know or are for some reason afraid to ask others for help. OR maybe its just that everyone loves a bit of internet drama, because apparently the game isnt enough for some people...
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 3:48 pm
by LiamLime
In terms of "Looking good", I feel like every thread should be closed by the mod who locks it with a fairly standard message. Something like:
"This thread is locked. If you feel there is any legitimate reason to re-open it, or if any new relevant details arise later, feel free to send me a private message and I'll re-open it."
The number of times this is relevant is minimal though.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 4:12 pm
by Tsaricide
The reason admins shouldn't close their own threads is the same reason admins shouldn't ban people when they're involved, bias.
It's really not hard to just wait for one of the other head admins to close it.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 4:33 pm
by peoplearestrange
LiamLime wrote:In terms of "Looking good", I feel like every thread should be closed by the mod who locks it with a fairly standard message. Something like:
"This thread is locked. If you feel there is any legitimate reason to re-open it, or if any new relevant details arise later, feel free to send me a private message and I'll re-open it."
The number of times this is relevant is minimal though.
Generally that happens. I normally ask for a headmin to lock any admin complaints thread about other admins. However there isn't really a standard against headmins because it doesnt really come up. Normally elections take the place of headmin complaints.
From what it seems like another headmin should probably close said topic.
As Sage says, its mostly looked upon the same was as admins dealing with their own ahelps/if they're involved in an ahelp.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:36 am
by Incomptinence
Totally off the rails. It is a small thing but it is one of the few taboos left that stops bad admins going out of control.
Repeated offenses while simultaneously saying he is sorry and shouldn't do it shows complete contempt for almost all involved including the other admins that could have closed it for him and little hope for reform.
While most admins hold themselves to higher standards than ausops like a player hypothetically advocating lying in admin helps his rampant disregard of procedure encourages others to bad behaviour.
Yes complaints have a really low success rate, no this doesn't make you "above" criticism and review.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:31 am
by imblyings
Tornadium repeating something enough doesn't make it true you know.
If we're going by due process, he never should have made the complaints in the first place. Precedent has complaints about bans only get made when their appeals are successful, none of which were, even after the other headmins were no doubt made aware of the bans and given the chance to lift them. Of course then there's the issue of having literally no way to appeal for an actually bad ban if a player can't even get past the appeal stage but then you have to wonder about the player and the possibility that the ban wasn't bad if no one is willing to lift it. It felt unnecessarily cruel to post that in the first complaint but for a policy thread, this is a valid point.
Complaints about misconduct, cheating with admin privileges etc, are a different matter of course.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:26 pm
by CPTANT
imblyings wrote:Tornadium repeating something enough doesn't make it true you know.
If we're going by due process, he never should have made the complaints in the first place. Precedent has complaints about bans only get made when their appeals are successful, none of which were, even after the other headmins were no doubt made aware of the bans and given the chance to lift them. Of course then there's the issue of having literally no way to appeal for an actually bad ban if a player can't even get past the appeal stage but then you have to wonder about the player and the possibility that the ban wasn't bad if no one is willing to lift it. It felt unnecessarily cruel to post that in the first complaint but for a policy thread, this is a valid point.
Complaints about misconduct, cheating with admin privileges etc, are a different matter of course.
This is completely nonsense when someone closes an appeal for a ban that he applied himself within an hour. You are basically saying that admin's don't make bad bans and thus there is no reason to complain about bad admin actions.
Denying an admin complaint because a ban appeal was rejected only makes sense if it wasn't the same person that placed the ban and rejected the appeal.
Do you think a chain of events where:
you get to place the ban
you get to deny the appeal
you get to deny the complaint
is a good system?
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 5:31 pm
by LiamLime
In theory no, in practice it works fine.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:54 pm
by Pascal123
CPTANT wrote:Do you think a chain of events where:
you get to place the ban
you get to deny the appeal
you get to deny the complaint
is a good system?
You know, this might actually be a reason some people are jumping ship. Nobody likes totalitarianism.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:18 pm
by peoplearestrange
This is why we have 3 headmins, which are voted in by the playerbase and admins every 6 months (or less...)
Compare to 99% of other serves where the host is 1 person and has the final word and is a regular admin.
I think we do pretty damn well honestly.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:42 pm
by Zilenan91
Tornadium is honestly just creating problems and drama where there are none. I completely agree with Ausops closing the complaint thread, Tornadium was ruled zero'd after all, you only get rule zero'd if the admins want absolutely nothing more to do with you, so logically that will carry over to the forums.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:44 pm
by LiamLime
In practice, TGS does a decent job in ensuring accountability. Every so often, something falls through the cracks, but nowhere near often enough that it would point to systemic issues. And when it comes to people powered added bureaucracy, it should only be added if necessary. Just because there is the potential for problems to happen, doesn't mean there should be some people-powered system to prevent these problems, if they never happen in the first place.
Of course, if the system can be automated, it should be implemented even if the problems don't happen, but if it requires human activity, it should not be implemented unless it proves itself necessary.
For example, a github style peer review system could be added to handle admin complaints, where complaints need to remain active for a certain amount of time, they need to be reviewed by some other admin and then closed. Sure, this sounds great in theory, but would require way more time from all admins, would slow down the complaints resolution process, open the doors for player-side abuse (if minimum times were added before issues could be closed), etc. And what would it solve? Nothing, because the potential problem it is meant to solve doesn't happen in practice. Also, chances are it wouldn't even solve potential cases, much like code reviews on Github don't stop bad commits. Just like coders don't bother doing proper code reviews, so too admins wouldn't look into each complaint and would instead close most on impressions and faith alone.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:48 pm
by lumipharon
Tornadium is a massive shit. That said, closing complaints about yourself for whatever reason, is a bad idea.
If he's just constantly shitting up the forum with bad complaints/shit stirring, then he should be banned from the forums (by someone that the complaint isn't leveled against).
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:50 pm
by Tornadium
Zilenan91 wrote:Tornadium is honestly just creating problems and drama where there are none. I completely agree with Ausops closing the complaint thread, Tornadium was ruled zero'd after all, you only get rule zero'd if the admins want absolutely nothing more to do with you, so logically that will carry over to the forums.
I got rule zeroed because Ausops remembered he was leaving.
Not because the admins decided they wanted absolutely nothing more to do with me.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 12:14 pm
by Ricotez
you got rule zeroed because the admins wanted absolutely nothing more to do with you and Ausops did it because he is leaving, so he won't have to deal with your whiny neverending bullshit for the rest of his headmin term
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 12:23 pm
by peoplearestrange
Ok I think this discussion has run its course, and it seems to be winding back to issues revolving around the Tornadium/Ausops issue. Which another story/thread/drama itself.
If anyone has anything actually relevant to add let it be said, off topic crap will be deleted and if it continues to be irrelevant I'll simply lock the thread in 24hours.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:22 pm
by Not-Dorsidarf
I believe that admins shouldn't close complaints against themselves at all, for any reason, due to the immense drama it inevitably creates. Even if it's a bad complaint, it's not worth three weeks of the community's time wasted scrolling over angry singulo posts and locked discussion threads just to save half an hour until a forum mod rolls around.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 7:34 am
by Saegrimr
Again, unless they're a headmin or a forum admin like PAS. We literally cannot close them ourselves.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:14 pm
by MrStonedOne
Saegrimr wrote:Again, unless they're a headmin or a forum admin like PAS. We literally cannot close them ourselves.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:23 pm
by CPTANT
And why the need to repeat this information once more?
It doesn't matter that not all admins have the abillity to do so, nobody should do it.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:32 pm
by Saegrimr
CPTANT wrote:And why the need to repeat this information once more?
It doesn't matter that not all admins have the abillity to do so, nobody should do it.
I agree, it just seemed like people forgot this is a one-off and very unusual case that is known to be a bad move, but was done anyway because there isn't much a basis to complain on other than "i'm mad I finally got permabanned for my attitude".
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:52 pm
by CPTANT
Saegrimr wrote:CPTANT wrote:And why the need to repeat this information once more?
It doesn't matter that not all admins have the abillity to do so, nobody should do it.
I agree, it just seemed like people forgot this is a one-off and very unusual case that is known to be a bad move, but was done anyway because there isn't much a basis to complain on other than "i'm mad I finally got permabanned for my attitude".
Well I dislike to argue about that case in here. But the basis for the complaint wasn't as clear cut as that. It was stated in that ban appeal itself that Tornadium's "last straw" was a post made in policy discussion. Citing that post as part of the ban was extremely dubious since the post was completely fine. Also that ban appeal was closed within 1 hours time by the same person who issued the ban.
I would say it would also be good policy to leave ban appeals open for at least 24 hours (unless lifted before that).
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:57 pm
by Saegrimr
CPTANT wrote:Well I dislike to argue about that case in here. But the basis for the complaint wasn't as clear cut as that. It was stated in that ban appeal itself that Tornadium's "last straw" was a post made in policy discussion. Citing that post as part of the ban was extremely dubious since the post was completely fine. Also that ban appeal was closed within 1 hours time by the same person who issued the ban.
I would say it would also be good policy to leave ban appeals open for at least 24 hours (unless lifted before that).
Probably wouldn't be a bad idea for normal admins.
Honestly when we're talking about headmins, we're into the "they make the rules, deal with it" territory.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:44 pm
by Alex Crimson
To be fair, everyone thought the same thing about SoS, but he was badgered into quitting eventually because he was acting like an idiot. Headmins are given their position so they can change rules for the good of the server, not so they can pull stupid shit and expect nobody to call them out. If Tornadium was that close to a permaban, then rule 0 would be fine, but Ausops acting the way they did was completely out of order. "im quitting soon anyways so why not?" that kind of justification should be an instant deadmin.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 2:22 pm
by Tornadium
I wasn't that close to a perma. I hadn't even been playing regularly on the server for months before this occurred.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:05 pm
by LiamLime
Alex Crimson wrote:that kind of justification should be an instant deadmin.
One action, be it an accident, caused by negligence or even malice, cannot and should not undo all the good an admin has done before then, even if this one action causes some huge public outcry and outrage. People make mistakes and cause intentional harm and admins are people. Expecting perfection from admins is unreasonable, the only thing you can expect is that they will do a lot more good than harm.
One action doesn't "show someone's true colours" or whatever, because everyone's true colours are a corrupt, mischievous, broken person and the only difference between people is how much of this shows through the "good person" facade we paint on ourselves.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 8:50 pm
by oranges
Alex Crimson wrote:To be fair, everyone thought the same thing about SoS, but he was badgered into quitting eventually
Because again, at the end of the day, everyone is accountable to the players, ignore their concerns long enough and things can get very hostile for you and it will be a quite toxic thing.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:04 pm
by Alex Crimson
LiamLime wrote:Alex Crimson wrote:that kind of justification should be an instant deadmin.
One action, be it an accident, caused by negligence or even malice, cannot and should not undo all the good an admin has done before then, even if this one action causes some huge public outcry and outrage. People make mistakes and cause intentional harm and admins are people. Expecting perfection from admins is unreasonable, the only thing you can expect is that they will do a lot more good than harm.
One action doesn't "show someone's true colours" or whatever, because everyone's true colours are a corrupt, mischievous, broken person and the only difference between people is how much of this shows through the "good person" facade we paint on ourselves.
It wasnt "one action". He repeatedly closed his own complaint topics and then went on to say he didnt care, because either way he intended to quit. Being a good headmin doesnt give you immunity nor does it give you the right to act like a dick.
Headmins do not need to be saints. Nobody expects that. Everyone gets mad sometimes. However they should take responsibility for their actions rather than excuse it with "im quitting anyways so w/e".
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:47 am
by LiamLime
I copied your proposed general rule, which wasn't tied to Ausops. Also, my entire reply was in no way related to Ausops, instead it is a reply to your and any other proposed "If X then deadmin" blanket rule.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:05 am
by Alex Crimson
Abusing your mods powers then acting like a dick about it should result in you losing those powers. Not sure why anyone would argue against that. Being a good admin doesnt give you get out of jail free cards. I do not expect admins to be perfect, i expect them to be able to take responsibility for how they act when it comes to using their powers.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:44 pm
by Tornadium
Alex Crimson wrote:Abusing your mods powers then acting like a dick about it should result in you losing those powers. Not sure why anyone would argue against that. Being a good admin doesnt give you get out of jail free cards. I do not expect admins to be perfect, i expect them to be able to take responsibility for how they act when it comes to using their powers.
There is absolutely no incentive for that to happen.
I'm not sure how recent this trend is but adminbus is literally a popularity contest at the moment. There is no real quality control, no oversight. The headmins usually want as little trouble and drama as possible so there isn't much in the ways of actual regulation.
To be completely honest it's all about who the admin is taking action against, if you do something to a really popular player there will be mass outcry and mad drama goes down over it. If its to a relatively unknown player or someone with whom the major admin cliques have a grudge or simply a disliking for then nothing will happen regardless of what the actual punishment is for.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:22 pm
by peoplearestrange
The point is one situation, which was wrong, but almost instantly corrected and could have been prevented in the first place by going and speaking to ANY other admin.
The point is we are human, we make mistakes and do silly things. In the same way as we dont ban people for first offences. Obviously admins have to be held accountable and to a higher standard, but locking a thread? Something that can instantly be undone, as I keep saying, by ANY OTHER ADMIN/MOD is somehow grounds for instant removal? Some people are really jumping on the bandwagon of "mountain out of a mole hill" here. I understand why Tornadium is heavily pushing this because they have vested interest in watching someone who punished them have some sort of recompense for there slip up. But to treat it like its a problem thats crumbling the walls of /tg/ and is another tick on this "admin conspiracy", that seems to only be pushed by users/members who have shown repeat offences themselves or general aggressive behaviours, seem crazy.
Though I am aware I'm also "attacking the person", but honestly thats what this current issue seems to be, an attack on people, not of the process.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:03 pm
by Alex Crimson
If i remember right, an admin was removed for spawning in a stamp for himself, and another for spawning themselves as a Slaughter Demon. Repeatedly locking your own complaint threads sure seems pretty damn serious. For there to be no reprimanding at all, are you surprised people start with the "admin conspiracy" shit? Literally all ive seen since Ausops acted like that was one laughable message from MSO telling people not to close their own threads, and a bunch of praise/ass-kissing in the admin feedback thread.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:05 pm
by Tornadium
peoplearestrange wrote:The point is one situation, which was wrong, but almost instantly corrected and could have been prevented in the first place by going and speaking to ANY other admin.
The point is we are human, we make mistakes and do silly things. In the same way as we dont ban people for first offences. Obviously admins have to be held accountable and to a higher standard, but locking a thread? Something that can instantly be undone, as I keep saying, by ANY OTHER ADMIN/MOD is somehow grounds for instant removal? Some people are really jumping on the bandwagon of "mountain out of a mole hill" here. I understand why Tornadium is heavily pushing this because they have vested interest in watching someone who punished them have some sort of recompense for there slip up. But to treat it like its a problem thats crumbling the walls of /tg/ and is another tick on this "admin conspiracy", that seems to only be pushed by users/members who have shown repeat offences themselves or general aggressive behaviours, seem crazy.
Though I am aware I'm also "attacking the person", but honestly thats what this current issue seems to be, an attack on people, not of the process.
You delete my posts in FNR threads enough to know that my attitude towards all of this is irrelevant to my current situation. If I think an admin has done something shit, I say it.
I'm heavily pushing this particular issue because the ban is shit, it was based on nothing. Like nearly 5 months of me barely playing and just usually chilling out playing Cargo Tech. Seems to be like a rule 0 ban just because I can and i'm quitting is pretty high on the shit scale and if it was done to someone slightly more popular in the community there would be outrage.
Hence my popularity contest comment.
Re: Admins closing complaints against themselves
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:27 pm
by Tornadium
Alex Crimson wrote:If i remember right, an admin was removed for spawning in a stamp for himself, and another for spawning themselves as a Slaughter Demon. Repeatedly locking your own complaint threads sure seems pretty damn serious. For there to be no reprimanding at all, are you surprised people start with the "admin conspiracy" shit? Literally all ive seen since Ausops acted like that was one laughable message from MSO telling people not to close their own threads, and a bunch of praise/ass-kissing in the admin feedback thread.
That would be because no one in adminbus wants to deal with the drama of it.
I'm still waiting to hear back from mso tho