/tg/Station 13

This covers everything that players do, over, and over, again expecting things to change.

i.e. murderbone every round as traitor, rushing away mission and validhunting with gear, superviruses to everyone, hulk and xray to everyone for more than 3 rounds in a row during most days of the week.

It seems anything remotely !FUN! is abused to the point where a nerf is mandatory to keep rounds from being disrupted.

You have seen it recently with changes to hulk due to everyone having hulk within 10 minutes of the round, every round for a week.
Away missions have been removed as of such.

If the only way you play traitor is to murderbone, release singulo and lag the server out, it should probably change.
Likewise, if you only play to give everyone stimulants healing viruses with xray, hulk, and coldresist, rounds become stale.

You can order takeout, but you should not only order takeout.

The idea behind implementing this policy is to create the rule of "Play with your toys, but do not break them for others", and to enforce the change of roles and gameplay.


Essentially, this is taking action against those players, rather than punishing content and gameplay based upon a small minority.

Speaking to one player in particular, if the one tactic you use to kill people gets nerfed specifically because of you, you're most likely on thin ice.

How about we, revolutionary idea incoming, don't decide what players can do and don't nerf/remove shit based on the actions of one or very few players.

Shit happens. Suck it up.

> recent changes in hulk means everyone has gone to get hulk now

Yes, that's what happens when there's a new feature. See things like [e]bolas (I actually like them), spears when they were in, chainsaws, chainsaws arms, .... on and on.

If a tactic is viable after several rounds of doing it over and over, whose fault it that? If you don't learn the first 3 times that doesn't mean the person should get the hammer, it means you need to git gud.


If something is abusable, then it needs to be tweaked so it can no longer be abused. Leaving stuff in that's stupidly powerful because 'just dont use it over and over guis' is silly.

This is broadly covered under rule 1 of the server rules.

Unless players are dealt with, there's a decision to be made to allow rounds to be disrupted by those players, or remove the ability to disrupt from those players. Currently the latter is the solution, which I'd prefer it to be the former.

This is a role playing game. Deciding how others play has been made before for the better, and not taking any action at all results in rounds being disrupted and the gamemodes unplayable.

I don't think the idea of a SS13 that's padded up to prevent any abuse is ideal.

>People playing a job they like and doing it fast breaks rule 1 in your mind

How about no

This is why you've been on the brink of getting rule 0'd Shadow.

The idea of "I want to make Bluespace tomatoes and flood hallways repeatedly because it's fun and it's my job" isn't valid.

It's an offense to take action against players that disrupt the round using the excuse it's their job.

If you play the same job just to do one thing and ignore the requests of other people not to do so, it's rule 1.

Zilenan91 wrote:This is why you've been on the brink of getting rule 0'd Shadow.

PFFFFFT

What annoys the hell out of me, being a very robust virology player is when lorenzo tesla plays Viro and hands out a triple healing virus with sitmulant to EVERYONE.

Atleast when I make viruses that are healing/stim I only give them to sec and myself, plus the cap. Like holy shit.

I'm sorry for being good at virology apparently I should be baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanned.

I'm sorry for using the tools botany gives me in the way literally anyone could do (what daisy holmes does is not some advanced rocket science shit it's just optimization of botany from experience of playing many rounds) and then exploring the plants that result.

There's a difference between doing your job, and with intent to disrupt others round.

When regular players min max a job and do it effectively the effects are stunning.
When I learnt how to do genetics well, I could have the entire station with all powers within 15 minutes. Took me a good amount of rounds to learn how to do it sure, but I could.
Did it ruin the round? It definitely disrupted it, but all I was doing is performing my job at the absolute best it could be.
Over time departments have been nerfed, it's much harder to power spam as geneticist, chemistry can no longer easily create mega pills, cryo is no longer self serve 100% free heal.
Things will sort themselves out, virology will be nerfed soon, anything remotely powergamey will be removed and we'll just all shuffle round slapping on synth flesh patches daily.

instead of nerf viro why not revert the shitty buff?

Nevermind who ever reverts just nerf that shit.

When people say shitty buff I don't know what they're talking about. This is going off topic.

The recent update reduces RNG. The time difference between pre-nerf virus completion now is 3 minutes; shorter than cargo shuttle.

The time difference in completing the virus assuming perfect theoretical RNG is 15-18 minutes. After the update it's 12-15 minutes. The time difference does not mean anything to toxic filter's healing rate. Nerfing virology healing is literally two symptoms not the RNG reducing update.


Back on topic
I really don't think it's the spirit of the game to abuse mechanics of the game until everyone has a foam sword and is locked in a padded room. A small minority of players should not make game content shittier for others.

You're blaming the players when you should be blaming coders for grudgecoding and people like you and Zil that complain so much.

Players dindu nuffin

ShadowDimentio wrote:You're blaming the players when you should be blaming coders for grudgecoding and people like you and Zil that complain so much.

Players dindu nuffin

IEDs.
Hulk punch.
Telescience.

Only thing I can think of to deter this is a job lockout of genetics and viro. If you played that job the round before you can't the following round. That's a bad idea though.

It all comes down to being thoughtful of others which, at tg, is not going to happen. Many people get their enjoyment on tg by ruining the fun of others.

Zilenan91 wrote:Speaking to one player in particular, if the one tactic you use to kill people gets nerfed specifically because of you, you're most likely on thin ice.

Oh, I think someone's talking about me~!

Though, I haven't played in like half a year, I don't know why you're complaining about me.

J_Madison wrote:The idea of "I want to make Bluespace tomatoes and flood hallways repeatedly because it's fun and it's my job" isn't valid.

Which is fucking retarded because if they're a traitor and they feel like making bluespace tomatoes and flood hallways repetitively because it's fun, why the fuck not? If people want to have fun their way, and they're an antagonist with, usually, carte-blanche, then why would you limit them?

Regulating player behaviour to the extent you propone means anyone could be banned essentially at any time for doing a singular action more than once in concession, even as an antag is literally proponing SoS/Bay's methodology and a terrible server experience. We already threw out that sort of thing into the trash with SoS, no need to bring it up again.

Furthermore, as others have said, you suggest punishing people for becoming efficient or capable at their job, which is ludicrous. For instance, I'm hyper competent at virology, and I can 'finish' my job in virology in 12 minutes average (pre-buff), distributing the completed virus or keep it to myself. Does this mean virology needs a nerf because a single player with thousands of hours of game time can complete a job in record time? No, it just means they've gotten good at a role, and should reap just rewards for actually being capable at their job. Either way, you're basically saying that if I decide to actually do my job competently, and I just so happen to play a particular role semi-regularly, that should be punished. Very stupid.

I give you a SoS/10.

Bluespace wrote:Over time departments have been nerfed, it's much harder to power spam as geneticist, chemistry can no longer easily create mega pills, cryo is no longer self serve 100% free heal.
Things will sort themselves out, virology will be nerfed soon, anything remotely powergamey will be removed and we'll just all shuffle round slapping on synth flesh patches daily.

Yeah, and this is why the /tg/station has been going down the shitter. Everything gets weaker, antagonists have to rely more and more on their own base antag equipment, rather than scavenging from the station or netting anything from jobs. Jobs have slowly been going from 'viable for antagonists to do to enhance murderbone potential, for assassinations, or to cause chaos' to 'tedious monotonous busywork for non-antags to engage in for minor boons and wait to be killed'.

It's impossible to remove everything 'remotely powergamey'. Whatever you nerf, there will always be something that is 'the best' or a more efficient way of doing something, or a way to kill people, or whatever. All you do is remove variation and remove fun by making everything on-station into nerfbats and sapping all danger on the station.

And you wonder why murderboners have become so single-faceted.

I still don't see murderboning as a traitor as a harmful thing

It's boring the 17th time you see it, but it's not wrong to do

Solo-Antag has always been a "rules-light" role, why start arbitrarily throwing restrictions at it now?

It's one thing if murderboning hampers your team's success, but that's not an issue for any of the solo-antags

And murderboning is a thing because killing one person/stealing the blueprints and then waiting the whole round for the shuttle is boring as fuck


I'd much rather have a murderboning traitor doing something in the round than sitting there with my thumb up my ass for an hour+ with nothing fucking happening

not a policy issue

if something is abused for being too powerful, it's generally up to the coders to fix their shit

anything that's newly implemented is going to see repeated use for the first few rounds/days (see: picking up chairs when it was implemented), leave that stuff alone until it dies down

Completely missed the point Amelius. This isn't focus inf directly on traitor. This covers normal gameplay too.
You can get bwoinked for killing a non-antag doing a shitty round disrupting tactic, but it's fine if they do it and disrupt the round. You can't defend your fun, but they're able to directly remove yours.

When I say antag behaviour should be monitored, I'm talking those whom every round do it, no matter the antag.

I made absolutely no mention of player skill. You can play any role you like WITHOUT disrupting the round on purpose. You're missing the point completely. You can play Geneticist and not disrupt the round repeatedly, and you can do the same with whatever other role. I made no mention whatsoever about doing your job well, but rather doing your job in a way that fucks with others.

And it is possible to remove anything powergamey. It's happening now. It happens because players will use anything remotely powergamey as an antag or non-antag until it needs to be removed.

See away missions for example.

The problem with policing nonantag behaviour too heavily is that it leads to a meta of "janitor mopped the hallway with water instead of space cleaner without getting banned, JANITOR MUST BE AN ANTAG, LYNCH HE"

Screemonster wrote:The problem with policing nonantag behaviour too heavily is that it leads to a meta of "janitor mopped the hallway with water instead of space cleaner without getting banned, JANITOR MUST BE AN ANTAG, LYNCH HE"

Sounds like a fast way to get banned for metagaming.

Screemonster wrote:The problem with policing nonantag behaviour too heavily is that it leads to a meta of "janitor mopped the hallway with water instead of space cleaner without getting banned, JANITOR MUST BE AN ANTAG, LYNCH HE"

I play janitor when I feel like being that guy everyone blames for slips because I mop only wih water, but! I don't mop entire hallways, maybe the 3 tiles at a time but never an entire hall at once and only if there's actually blood there.

The people that need to be lynched as janitors are the shits who mop during ops, blob, gang, and rev. Maybe not gang so much actually I take that back about gangs.

As for viro, for anyone who ruins the jobs reputation by giving stimulant, plus x3 healing..Stop. Unless you're antag, or its blob/ops only give it to security or the captain.

I've seen so many rounds ruined for security players because of shit virology players giving a stimulant virus that spreads by sneeze to assistants. To be honest viros should he held accountable for giving such a strong disease out to the public if a assistant with the virus kills a security guard or anyone w/o it.

Its the viros fault the person has the disease not the antahs but it indirectly helps them and that's why playing viro should be taken more serious then trying to be everyone's friend and giving out a robust triple stacked with the new headache virus is dangerous.

Stimulant and triple healing virus makes everyone harder to kill of course I'm going to give it to the doctors that save people's lives and the engineers that make sure the big ball of death doesn't escape. It also makes life just better for everyone because running fast is fucking awesome. Occasionally it'll let a greyshirt run away from a sec officer that doesn't know how to keep hitting someone with a baton or how to change his taser's mode but the positives of everyone being much sturdier generally outweigh it.

J_Madison wrote:The idea of "I want to make Bluespace tomatoes and flood hallways repeatedly because it's fun and it's my job" isn't valid.

This shit is infuriating. When there are piles of dirt in literally every tile of the main hallways with bluespace tomatos growing in there the game stops being fun.

Yeah, and it sure as hell isn't "your job" to make evacuation dangerous. The botanist, like the janitor, treads a fine line between help and hindrance.

as a security player I find myself beating botanists for stupid shit disproportionatly

Screwdriver to the eyes has been a very effective way of dealing with this in my experiences.

having a policy on this is retarded, it's like having a policy on what colour the sun is. This will always be bannable.

We don't have an explicit policy on hacking or crashing the server I guess they're allowed too huh

Ban evasion isn't covered either better luck next time kiddos

The solution is clearly to nerf the officers who could prevent such disruptive behaviour so the round gets ruined faster.

Pretty sure a coder put forward a similar argument for buffing rev, because the didn't like it and wanted it to be as fast and one sided as possible.

I mean are we fucking serious here, people are pissed using the specific example of virology producing a beneficial virus that heals people?
Whats next, ban the competent miners, robotics are building durands ten minutes into the round and its disrupting my play!
Ban chemists who make synthflesh! It makes my role in medbay redundant and disrupts my round!

Fucking babies all of ya.

Ivan Issaccs wrote:Whats next, ban the competent miners

Well Kor did just try to make mesons not work properly when mining lavaland. Matter of time maybe?

Incomptinence wrote:

Ivan Issaccs wrote:Whats next, ban the competent miners

Well Kor did just try to make mesons not work properly when mining lavaland. Matter of time maybe?

Kor did a lot more than fuck with mesons to make mining worthless.

But seriously, if someone is doing something yell at them or knock them over the head. If it's the botanist spamming bananas and bluespace tomatoes than security should get involved because law 207: Creating a Workplace Hazard (To endanger the crew or station through negligent or irresponsible, but not deliberately malicious, actions.) or possible 307 Sabatoge (To hinder the work of the crew or station through malicious actions.), as they are intentionally hindering the crew or making areas of the ship impassable. If you're getting pissy over virology making a heal virus... fucking grow up.

Davidchan wrote:If it's the botanist spamming bananas and bluespace tomatoes than security should get involved because law 207: Creating a Workplace Hazard (To endanger the crew or station through negligent or irresponsible, but not deliberately malicious, actions.) or possible 307 Sabatoge (To hinder the work of the crew or station through malicious actions.), as they are intentionally hindering the crew or making areas of the ship impassable.

DANGER DANGER Please refer to the INCREDIBLY STYLISH banner at the top of the space law page:
This concludes your SPACE LAW IS AN IC GUIDELINE NOT RULES notice. We now resume our already derailed topic

He's not wrong though.

Sec is the counter to being an asshole in character that allows those things to remain only IC issues and not OOC issues.


The only policy that should be enacted is that if you're intentionally being disruptive you void your right to complain when security sends you off to the gulag to die, and don't be surprised if the crew takes matters into their own hands and lynches you.

Does there come a point when something is both an IC and OOC issue? If someone's doing clearly over-the-line things like rape, they're going to get lynched IC, but they'll also be banned OOC; how far does this extend to less serious acts? If someone breaks into the Armory as a non-antag, does shooting them to death void your right to adminhelp? How about if someone's smashing your windows, and you beat them up and disposal them? Can you still complain about how they smashed your windows?

Seriously, if somebody is being a dick, beat the shit out of them. I have never gotten bwoinked for it once. IC resolution is the way to go.

Luke Cox wrote:Seriously, if somebody is being a dick, beat the shit out of them. I have never gotten bwoinked for it once. IC resolution is the way to go.

The only problem with that is, if you fail to robust them, they don't receive any punishment at all. Someone's actions don't go from "unacceptable" to "acceptable" simply because they escaped punishment.

TheNightingale wrote:

Luke Cox wrote:Seriously, if somebody is being a dick, beat the shit out of them. I have never gotten bwoinked for it once. IC resolution is the way to go.

The only problem with that is, if you fail to robust them, they don't receive any punishment at all. Someone's actions don't go from "unacceptable" to "acceptable" simply because they escaped punishment.

Additionally, the prospect of an entertaining fight can encourage some players to go and annoy others more. Now in some cases this isn't a bad thing, but there are certain behaviours that aren't fun to encourage at all (some of which are on this thread).

If someone's being a MASSIVE douche (See: planting bluespace tomatoes everywhere), ahelp and the admins will probably tell them to fucking stop and/or fix their mess.

There's literally so much nuance to this that just having a policy about it would be stupid.

Or just kill them and resolve it IC if you don't want to be a buttbaby

That works too

Cheimon wrote:

TheNightingale wrote:

Luke Cox wrote:Seriously, if somebody is being a dick, beat the shit out of them. I have never gotten bwoinked for it once. IC resolution is the way to go.

The only problem with that is, if you fail to robust them, they don't receive any punishment at all. Someone's actions don't go from "unacceptable" to "acceptable" simply because they escaped punishment.

Additionally, the prospect of an entertaining fight can encourage some players to go and annoy others more. Now in some cases this isn't a bad thing, but there are certain behaviours that aren't fun to encourage at all (some of which are on this thread).

This is why you stuncuff them and torture them to death in maint. Or better yet, steal an anesthetic tank and straightjacket from medbay and make them sleep forever.

I like to cuff people and send them out the mass driver, alive

Zilenan91 wrote:Or just kill them and resolve it IC if you don't want to be a buttbaby

In a perfect world this would always be the case and we wouldn't need admins outside if running events

kickin' rad place to be!

Malkevin wrote:The only policy that should be enacted is that if you're intentionally being disruptive you void your right to complain when security sends you off to the gulag to die, and don't be surprised if the crew takes matters into their own hands and lynches you.

tgchan has a MUD, and their rules page literally says:

Making a character that ICly griefs people means they have no defense against other characters ICly lynching them.

I mean I really can't say anything bad about this policy.