/tg/Station 13

It seems that space law is now no longer a thing. I'd heard word of this but it was done fairly stealthily to my knowledge, and as far as I know, without the other headmins involved and was something HG pushed themselves.
The wiki now redirects to the server rules page.

So 10 min timers with buckcuff and headset removal is fine, even for minor crimes, as long as your not a dick about it... Or security are new admins whatever you want to call it.

Ok ok so I'm probably making a mountain out of molehil, but I atleast liked the guide to brig timers and even from a RP element liked the crime codes, which have now technically be erased.
I'm sure its not as big deal as I'm making it, I just dont like that it was kinda stealth applied as far as I can see.

What are your thoughts?

I've made my thoughts VERY clear on the merged 'space law' thread on the obscure wiki sub-forum (if I were a suspicious person I would say it was moved there to obscure it). Thread in question: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=6038

All in all there is no good reason to remove space law. Space Law adheres to Security Policy and DOES NOT break any established policy rules as I know off. In addition Space Law serves as a good guide for newer and older Security players on giving out assigned sentences for crimes.

The removal of space law does several things.

• Utterly guts the concept of the Lawyer, now they have NOTHING to use for a legal defence aside from appealing to emotion to reduce a sentance.
• Deletes the, subjectivle, most well thought and typed out wiki page on our wiki.
• Gives Security players no guidance on sentencing, as well as giving crew and antagonists no way of even guessing what the punishment might be for a crime. It could range from a slap on the back to a 10 minute sentence for breaking a chemistry window.
• Minor point but it might screw over down-stream servers who want to use Space Law but cannot now.

This was also a change that had no community input, and when pressed it took three days for HG to respond with a palty attempt at shifting the blame halfway to another headmin.

Edit: Also as a minor addition, no other server has gutted Space Law. From Baystation, Goonstation, Colonial Marines to bloody Vorestation. We're the exception.

c'mon we're not all that autistic as to not be able to come up with reasonable times to take someone out of a round temporarily for x y or z """crime""" right? surely security players are reasonable human beings who understand that it's a game and all and can happily play with others without a page most probably have never read carefully surely ;;^^)))

it should probably be re-introduced but rewritten from a certain angle, to manipulate security into being less harsh on victimless crimes but also give sec an IC reason to deal harshly with people who fuck with them constantly

imblyings wrote:c'mon we're not all that autistic as to not be able to come up with reasonable times to take someone out of a round temporarily for x y or z """crime""" right? surely security players are reasonable human beings who understand that it's a game and all and can happily play with others without a page most probably have never read carefully surely ;;^^)))

it should probably be re-introduced but rewritten from a certain angle, to manipulate security into being less harsh on victimless crimes but also give sec an IC reason to deal harshly with people who fuck with them constantly

Security should not be less harsh on victimless crime, in fact actually enforcing laws for once is a lot more interesting than HUNT THE VALIDS all the time.

CPTANT wrote:

imblyings wrote:c'mon we're not all that autistic as to not be able to come up with reasonable times to take someone out of a round temporarily for x y or z """crime""" right? surely security players are reasonable human beings who understand that it's a game and all and can happily play with others without a page most probably have never read carefully surely ;;^^)))

it should probably be re-introduced but rewritten from a certain angle, to manipulate security into being less harsh on victimless crimes but also give sec an IC reason to deal harshly with people who fuck with them constantly

Security should not be less harsh on victimless crime, in fact actually enforcing laws for once is a lot more interesting than HUNT THE VALIDS all the time.

...

I sincerely hope you once in your life encounter JLP.

fun from victimless crime >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any """fun""" from stopping fun from victimless crimes

take your wrong opinions elsewhere

Space law is a good guideline for new security players albeit frustrating when "I WAS JUST SECURING THE DISK AS ASSISTANT WHY AM I GOING TO PERMA".

At a certain point most security players will brig/gulag corresponding to how much annoyance you've caused

I was fine with what space law was at before, it wasn't hard policy you could use as an excuse to bring the clown for 30 minutes for slipping you, but it provided a good baseline for new security officers to judge crime off of

There's some wrong info in this thread.

HG did this with lollerderby. They both agreed to it. HG did not just remove it himself.

Space law is not one of the most well thought out pages, I think that title probably goes to the rules page. Space law had unrestricted editing so that means any secrutity player who felt their view was best could edit it.

NikNakFlak wrote: Space law is not one of the most well thought out pages, I think that title probably goes to the rules page. Space law had unrestricted editing so that means any secrutity player who felt their view was best could edit it.

Nah. It looks like it's gotten a good bit of very thoughtful and attentive changes over the last several years.

Again, with this change, HG and Lollerderby have unilaterally declared that they DO NOT WANT this to be a roleplay server, echoing the sentiments of several outspoken members of the community.

You'll forgive us for attributing this all to HG considering Lollerderby has made zero comments on this issue as far as I can tell.

I don't really like Space Law in general. I felt like a lot of the times were too harsh for what the perp actually did. However I think it's necessary not for security officers but for lawyers who want to be scum and have trials.

I'm not a fan of it being removed with not even an announcement

I've long since graduated past basing decisions on it, but it shouldn't have been axed without even a discussion on the topic

imblyings wrote:c'mon we're not all that autistic as to not be able to come up with reasonable times to take someone out of a round temporarily for x y or z """crime""" right? surely security players are reasonable human beings who understand that it's a game and all and can happily play with others without a page most probably have never read carefully surely ;;^^)))

it should probably be re-introduced but rewritten from a certain angle, to manipulate security into being less harsh on victimless crimes but also give sec an IC reason to deal harshly with people who fuck with them constantly

>thinking people aren't autistic
>thinking people are reasonable human beings
>thinking this is a game

I actually laughed. Spacelaw is good as GUIDELINES, and for noobs, there is no other guidelines to use unless another member of sec handholds you (which is preferred, but obviously isn't usually the case). It's also great to pull out the book to shit on the serious shitlers by punishing them to the letter.

Basically, there is no reason what so ever to remove space law considering it's RP, not policy, and security aren't police.

>failing to detect banter despite judicious use of meme face

oh wait

>thinking people aren't autistic

;;;;;;;;;;;^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Meme detected, chance of banter [68.3367%)

imblyings wrote:it should probably be re-introduced but rewritten from a certain angle, to manipulate security into being less harsh on victimless crimes but also give sec an IC reason to deal harshly with people who fuck with them constantly

Yeah!
We could make it so that 'victimless' crimes carry a shorter sentence... oh wait, we already had that!
And we could also make it so that people that repeatedly break the law can get harsher and harsher punishments... oh wait, we had that too!

Anyway, back on the motherfucking topic (because apparently meme's infect any kind of serious discussion these days):

Why was the page removed right out? Why couldn't it have been left in with a heading saying "THIS ISNT SERVER RULES" or whatever, I actually liked the canon, I liked as a warden I could put in a crime code, but I also realised that just because a law was broken doesnt mean it NEEDS a brig time.

Right now we've gone total reversal of this, people are putting long ass brig timers and making up shit, because basically security is totalitarian, they make up what they want and its law until it moves into the realms of "being a dick" which WILDLY varies between what admin is on and their stance of how the server should be run.

And I think I could be forgiven in thinking that it was a purely HG thing when the ONLY source of information I was going on was the change logs of the wiki. Given that there was NO ANNOUNCEMENT, NO POLLS, NO DISCUSSION AT ALL, before it was put into effect. This is OUR community, not any one group of peoples.

Right, so all this bullshit and drama is retarded, so I'll try to be brief:

The worst part isn't that the space law page was removed - its the fact that it was done so poorly, just like a lot of shit that's been going on for quite some time now. Is it that hard to open a PR to remove those little space law books from the map? And considering that there's no real additional leash given to Security players by the looks of things, why bother? I mean, I understand some relatively large minority of our players can't handle not being handheld into making a good decision, but there's another similarly sized minority that will just figure out a way to abuse this change (then again, considering the people still standing, when haven't they?) and we'll be right back to square one.

Honestly, there's just autism all over this shit, and I honestly can't believe that there are people retarded enough to allow this type of badly done shenanigan to occur. Step it up.

And then we move onto...

DemonFiren wrote:I sincerely hope you once in your life encounter JLP.

As a player who has encountered and dealt with cdb and his shenanigans over the years, I can say with complete and total honesty that I would rather play with cdb being as shit as humanly possible than most of the people I see playing ss13 nowadays. Even at his worst, cdb is still miles better than the /tg/station community of today. Even as an administrator. I am also willing to say that he would be a better head administrator than quite a few previous headmins we've had. Would definitely manage to communicate and achieve consensus on any changes he'd want better than Hornygranny over here.

NikNakFlak wrote: Space law is not one of the most well thought out pages, I think that title probably goes to the rules page. Space law had unrestricted editing so that means any secrutity player who felt their view was best could edit it.

Nobody actually did that - at most, the gulag was attempted to be forced on it years ago and it was generally kept up to date as the game changed. About a year ago, somebody decided to remove the disclaimer that was already there as an experiment. Clearly, it was a success, because we're all crying about it. Even though as a player, I view the removal of space law as a good thing, it means 10 minute sentences for everyone I can't justify throwing in perma or executing and cremating like a good Security player... it doesn't mean that doing it like this is the way to go if we want to have nice things like quality server administration. But we never do get to have nice things for long around these parts.

In short, tl;dr:

peoplearestrange wrote:This is OUR community, not any one group of peoples.

yes, i am ashamed I said something good about cdb, no, I wont take it back, yes, it really does mean you're all a bunch of terminally retarded motherfuckers. where's dezzmont when you need him, or hell, where's anybody sane at?

It already had a big banner saying THIS ISN'T SERVER RULES but that wasn't enough, apparently.

NikNakFlak wrote: Space law had unrestricted editing so that means any secrutity player who felt their view was best could edit it.

False.

You can compare the original version with the latest one here.
https://tgstation13.org/wiki//index.php ... oldid=7478

As you can see all the edits are minor corrections for my crappy dyslexic spelling, with the exception of gulag times (which giacom forced in, who was a coder and didn't play, let alone play security) and dereliction of duty and insubordination - which ikarus wrote and were added after passing the two thirds majority vote requirement.

And some wikimin removed the disclaimer because he thought it looked ugly or something.

Some parts of the Space Law page had good tips and suggestions on how to preform brigging procedures and when you should use lethal force, many places on the Wiki reference those points directly and I think they, at minimum, should be returned.

Dawgas wrote: As a player who has encountered and dealt with cdb and his shenanigans over the years, I can say with complete and total honesty that I would rather play with cdb being as shit as humanly possible than most of the people I see playing ss13 nowadays. Even at his worst, cdb is still miles better than the /tg/station community of today. Even as an administrator. I am also willing to say that he would be a better head administrator than quite a few previous headmins we've had. Would definitely manage to communicate and achieve consensus on any changes he'd want better than Hornygranny over here.

What does any of this matter. We can discuss it until the cows come home. Here's the facts

• You have no way of overturning any of this unless you are a kiss ass to the headmins and really pucker up and polish those cheeks. I mean spit-shine, take em out on a date, buy them roses, scented candles and meet the the parents before kissing their ass you disgusting apple-polisher.
• Even then it probably be a freak accident if you do get 2/3 headmins to overturn something
• If you do get anything overturned the headmins get riled up against each other it creates a toxic community so a over-turn is probably never going to happen

It doesn't matter HOW horrible or unpopular a decision a headmin makes, as soon as they are in office they can make them and there is no recourse. Unless the community changes its guidelines and allows forum users the right to challenge unpopular or bad laws this will continue.


TLDR version

Enjoy your shit sandwich because you have no choice but to eat it. And don't worry, you'll be eating more, and not just from HG

oranges wrote:lmao so bane le edgy shitpost XDD

I could go further and say that the community has embraced his approach, if not the man himself, so whatever.

and as well:

Unfortunately, the key issue is that wow no that was a wall of text about headmin elections no that isn't right, also headmin elections were best done when players picked all three - lets try again:

The key issue this bullshit all highlights is that:

1. Shitty headmins ruin everything, but
2. If we tried the completely opposite approach and let the ignorant masses vote, we'll probably end up just like every other hub server and then I'll hear shit from digg or whatever that says "man why did TGstation die it was so good once ;_;" from some random fucking newfag or whatever.

The best and rarest form of server administration is a benevolent dictatorship and we have pretty much nobody who could fit in that role. As well, that tiny group of people shrinks to zero when you include the part where they have to actually set up and host a server and administrate a codebase that isn't shit AND find decent players to play on the server as well - good communities are NOT easy to make and hard to fix. Its not like we can do anything about it, what's likely to be done will probably fail and considering the multifaceted nature of the problem...

tl;dr:

starmute wrote: Enjoy your shit sandwich because you have no choice but to eat it. And don't worry, you'll be eating more, and not just from HG

I've been with plenty of communities where the game's decision and code direction were dictated by a few higher ups, I don't have a problem with that but the one thing ALL those community heads did was COMMUNICATE very effectively with the playerbase.

When confronted they fully explained their justifications and they would still at least listen and respond to people's criticisms. Here though that's not the case.

hg just needs to settle back into his role is all

Just a brief tg history lesson here...

We tried having a fully player-elected headmin team once but the elected officials fucked up tg so much for so long the current system was created.

I'm not saying it's something we couldn't try again, but the team of Deuryn/HBL/Intigracy more or less ruined the idea ever since.

I always forget Deuryn was headmin in that debacle... or headmin at all

Ikarrus wrote:Just a brief tg history lesson here...

We tried having a fully player-elected headmin team once but the elected officials fucked up tg so much for so long the current system was created.

I'm not saying it's something we couldn't try again, but the team of Deuryn/HBL/Intigracy more or less ruined the idea ever since.

It used to always be like that. That was the worst team and after that errorage had a fit and the coders swooped in to take a spot. Its not that player based admins were all bad. That was just the dream team of shit because HBL and Intigracy are like oil and water.


codervote/adminvote/playervote

Then after MSO became host it became
hostvote/adminvote/playervote


if I'm not mistaken.

actually the first couple of elections MSO gave his vote to coderbus until they kept trying to elect an Ascii penis, then he took it back

He gave it to the headmins this time, we decided to give it back to him.

starmute wrote:It used to always be like that. That was the worst team and after that errorage had a fit and the coders swooped in to take a spot. Its not that player based admins were all bad. That was just the dream team of shit because HBL and Intigracy are like oil and water.


codervote/adminvote/playervote

Then after MSO became host it became
hostvote/adminvote/playervote


if I'm not mistaken.

History lesson cont.

I don't know how Creed or XSI became chief headmins, but I'm certain it wasn't done by a vote because of how difficult it was to actually change headmins. I didn't pay much attention to the political side of things until XSI got forced out of both headmin and headcoder and we as a community decided to have elections for the first time ever.

Intigracy and HBL were the first elected headmins because they both led the polls by a wide margin, with Deuryn (Old headmin) grandfathered in by SoS to fill the third seat. Errorage drama happened here but it's completely irrelevant to how we picked our headmins.

Shit happened for nearly two years before we finally had another election kick off and we as a community divvied up the seats to Players(Anon3)/Admins(Ikarrus)/Host(HG). SoS gave his vote to the coders because he supported them absolutely and felt they should have more of a say in things.

SoS resigns as host and gives it to Anon3, who after a brief period also resigns and handed it off to me, but I passed it on to MSO.

MSO, like SoS, gave his pick to the coders for the first couple of elections under him, but since coders didn't really care about it, it looks like it's going to change. It remains to be seen how he's going to decide this time.

And then we have modern tg as we know it.

Ikarrus wrote: Intigracy and HBL were the first elected headmins because they both led the polls by a wide margin, with Deuryn (Old headmin) grandfathered in by SoS to fill the third seat. Errorage drama happened here but it's completely irrelevant to how we picked our headmins
And then we have modern tg as we know it.

Wasn't Intigracy the admin vote and HBL voted in mostly because he was so great in badger station?

Nope. They both participated in the same public poll.

They both led the others by a wide margin but IIRC Intigracy would have won if there was only one winner.

Ikarrus wrote:Nope. They both participated in the same poll.

They both led the others by a wide margin but IIRC Intigracy would have won if there was only one winner.

Huh. Memory is getting fuzzy. Time to take oldstimers medications

DemonFiren wrote:
I sincerely hope you once in your life encounter JLP.

Current HUNT THE VALIDS kill every antag HOSes aren't much better. At cbd's shittery could be entertaining from the sidelines.

My 2 cents.

I don't think it was a bad idea to remove space law, it's just going to require time for admins to sort out what goes over the line for rules like rule 1. Sec law was both too rigid and poorly thought out. And in this server full of metagaming autists I've had lots of greyshits already have their sentences and outrage typed into the chat bar when they start committing the crime. "DINDU NUFFIN, I ONLY BROKE WINDOWS, SPACE LAW! 2 MINUTES! WHY ARE YOU PERMAING ME?! SHITCURITY!", when they broke every single window and grille into the brig and released 3 prisoners. We have a lot of ban baiters who act like shit to sec and get the bwoinked when they cry that in their heads their crime only warrants 2 minutes in According to Hoyle's Space Law.

At a certain point most security players will brig/gulag corresponding to how much annoyance you've caused

Honestly this is really not a bad guideline for your average person. When you break a window, I'll usually let you go with a warning and not brig you. When you get arrested for the 6th time for slipping officers and smashing windows you deserve to get slapped around and a 10 minute or more sentence for being a turd. The big issue it's hard to tell when someone is being shitsec with how frequently shitlers ahelp everything. I got bwoinked not that long ago because the brig was completely blown up and I was wardening from the bridge with no way to secure prisoners, I was mostly watching cams and helping the HOS coordinate sec over the radio. Some guy with his ID and face hidden teleports onto the bridge, my reaction was to laser him. When I took his mask off he was a guy I was told welderbombed cryo so I left his ass to rot. I get bwoinked and told not to do that again...

I like the idea of getting rid of the poorly written space law but there needs to be better admin policy on how to handle sec if we're just going to go by server rules.

Space law's only rigid if you only pay attention to the crimes.
There's an entire section of modifiers.

That shit burger?
Breaking and Entering of a Secure area - five minutes
Aiding and abetting x 3 - shit burger gets the sentence of all three escapees added to his sentence.

Oh dear, looks like cunt face has racked up a lot of crimes - time to drag him to the perma and baton him to death.


Alternatively you can skip all the spiel and just perma them for Grand Sabotage, seeing as that covers bombing of departments and other destructive actions that render that department ineffective.

I got bwoinked not that long ago because the brig was completely blown up and I was wardening from the bridge with no way to secure prisoners, I was mostly watching cams and helping the HOS coordinate sec over the radio. Some guy with his ID and face hidden teleports onto the bridge, my reaction was to laser him. When I took his mask off he was a guy I was told welderbombed cryo so I left his ass to rot. I get bwoinked and told not to do that again...

And oranges wonders why I 'minimod' sec issues.

Depending on the context of the round you can't be blamed for lasering an Unknown that just teleported onto the brig.
After finding he was the bomber of cryo leaving him to rot was the fate he deserved, seeing as thats grand sabotage.


-------------------------------------------------

The problem with removing space law is that space law contained a list of what is and isn't a capital crime, there is no such list in sec policy which means we're back to being beholden to the whims of the individual admin - and some of them have some major sand in their crotch against the red.

Malkevin wrote: The problem with removing space law is that space law contained a list of what is and isn't a capital crime, there is no such list in sec policy which means we're back to being beholden to the whims of the individual admin - and some of them have some major sand in their crotch against the red.

That's true. The issue with Space Law capital crimes though was that under space law only the Captain, or in his absence the HOS, could authorize executions. Even if both were dead and an officer or warden executed a confirmed traitor half the time they would cry to admins and get you shit.

So even though Space Law was supposed to be IC suggestions, they took the Captain/HOS authorization of executions way way too seriously. This was especially annoying because the Captain usually doesn't care/want to get involved with Sec matters and a lot of HOS are afraid of authorizing executions because they *KNOW* that it's going to be ahelped and potentially get them in trouble. I think anyone who is a confirmed traitor with lethal gear should be 100% valid for executions, no exceptions. If you get caught using an emag to steal the station blueprints, that's different, go ahead and perma them. If you put 6 hot ones in the clown's dome with a 357, they should be valid. But they'll get arrested and then cry when they get executed for murder.


EDIT: Another BS thing you hear about perma is "You could safely contain them nonlethaly" That's bull when you have a lot of traitors. You ever try to put someone in perma when there's already 3 guys in there. You'll need to call for backup and pull an officer off patrol just to do it safely. Unless you've removed it they have a bar of soap and nothing to lose. They'll slip and spam disarm you until they have you. You've got flashers, batons, locking doors, tasers, etc, but that's not always enough if there's several of them. All it takes is a single lucky disarm and you're dead. Some admins, who as you put it hate the red, will give you shit for using lethals in a situation like that. I think if perma prisoners attack an officer they're free game for lethals. They're in perma and have nothing to lose. They WILL kill you to escape, there's no better time to not fuck around than that.

admins have more or less treated perma prisoners as on par with executions, in what universe/which admins have bwoinked you for killing perma prisoners?

It's happened a number of times over the time I've played. It's usually a case of the player whining, the Admin asking what's going on, and that's the end of it. I've almost never run into an issue of an admin actually giving grief over it but it still gets annoying sometimes when they ahelp it.

The biggest issue with admin intervention on lethals is when everything is burning to the ground but some admins still expect you to go to silly lengths to stay non-lethal. Like in my example above where I got told off by an admin for lasering an Unknown who teleported onto the bridge while the brig was blown up and there were reports of a mad bomber. I asked the admin(I don't remember who it was) why I couldnt use lethals for this guy when my only other option was to bucklecuff him on the bridge and baton him every 30 seconds the rest of the round as he tried to escape. His response was still, "you didn't know 100% without a doubt that he was the bomber when you killed him, don't do it again". When the brig is completely gone and I've relocated all the armory weapons to the bridge it should be valid to laser an Unknown greyshirt who teleports in.

cmspano wrote: That's true. The issue with Space Law capital crimes though was that under space law only the Captain, or in his absence the HOS, could authorize executions. Even if both were dead and an officer or warden executed a confirmed traitor half the time they would cry to admins and get you shit.

So even though Space Law was supposed to be IC suggestions, they took the Captain/HOS authorization of executions way way too seriously.

That was a fault of server policy rather than space law, seeing as the rules had a "only the captain can authorise executions" rule that was forced in by SoS and then was kept in as a hangover until last summer after much campaigning and pushing from me.


If the shit's hit the fan to point where the chain of command has collapsed absolutely no one in game is going to be in a position to challenge you executing capital criminal.
Space law doesn't apply in complete cluster fucks, I can't remember if I added something that explicitly stated that or if I assumed people would be smart enough to work out that a guideline is a guideline and not an absolute.

For the longest time Space Law was heavily pushed as a GUIDELINE in game, it was clearly stated as such and assumed as such.

If the shit's hit the fan to point where the chain of command has collapsed absolutely no one in game is going to be in a position to challenge you executing capital criminal.
Space law doesn't apply in complete cluster fucks, I can't remember if I added something that explicitly stated that or if I assumed people would be smart enough to work out that a guideline is a guideline and not an absolute.

Pretty much all the liberties officers get in code red are about space law not applying in complete clusterfucks, since the same section states/stated that something can be 'code red' without people having swiped cards. The cards are just a way of letting the station at large know rather than something that should be influencing policy: when the going gets tough, you're entirely allowed to get going.

Here's the problem though. Even with the chain of command for executions and space law removed, go and start executing people who are confirmed traitors instead of permaing them. I bet you'll get a sec ban.

Done it, didn't get boinked.

Did get oranges moaning when I posted on the forum about sec life not being so shit, but who cares about oranges.

Nice, have to keep track of which admins freak out over stuff like that. Now that I think about it I think it was shaps who bwoinked me for lasering the unknown teleporting onto the bridge.

Couple of weeks ago sec play seemed pretty good, officers were playing well with each other - cooperating and acting respectfully.

This week my security teams have been the worst bunch of mouth breathing degenerates.

The timing with the removal of space law seems too much to be a coincidence.

post hoc ergo propter hoc