/tg/Station 13

One of the biggest complaints about cult that I see is that people don't work together.
Now I've seen rounds where cultists do work together and it works good.

Codewise you've got enough cultists about the place that you should have enough to gather together, and communication is a piece of piss as you can freely privately communicate via your tome from the get go.

I've basically done everything I can to make team work easy.
If people aren't working together its because they're terrible players that rambo it and do it solo.


If a player isn't capable of standing around a rune for five seconds they don't deserve the privilege of being a round start cultist.
If a player refuses to work with his team he should be antag banned, just like you can be be banned from nuke ops for soloing off the shuttle and screwing your team over.



Bottom line is code can't fix bad players, but admin policies can weed out the chaff.

Are you saying:
"Bad cultists should be banned"
or
"Cultists deliberately sabotaging cult rounds" should be banned?

The issue with this is that a big part of cultists is conversion, which means you will always end up with assholes who fuck everything up the second they get their free antag card.

Nuke OPs doesn't have this issue so it makes sense to ban for assholes ruining everything, but it's a finer line in cult rounds.

I agree though that roundstart cultists that fuck around should be antag banned though.

Overall the key to cult in my opinion is a better concise wiki page in order to bring everyone up to speed quickly on what they should and could be doing.

I'd argue the bare minimum obligation for a cultist should be to stand around a nar-sie rune when one is made and someone is saying to stand around it.

Beyond that, you're trying to enforce competency or robustness and gl with that.

The problem is where you draw the line between incompetence and straight-up maliciousness. Nuke ops don't get banned for accidentally spacing themselves, revs don't get banned for getting caught flashing, because people understand that everyone fucks up, and it doesn't mean they're trying to screw someone over / be a dick.

That said it is and always has been bannable for cultists to actively attack or rat out their fellow members.

cultist-chan wrote:Are you saying:
"Bad cultists should be banned"
or
"Cultists deliberately sabotaging cult rounds" should be banned?

Both, the latter are cunts and deserve a game ban too. The former, when they set cult to 'yes' they're acknowledging that they know how cult works well enough to get it off the ground, its not really asking much to quickly skim the guide (even out dated most of it was still relevant) and atleast make an effort to communicate and a token effort to work with others.

We can't make players be better players but we can stop them fucking things up from the outset

We are not banning people for incompetence and never will.

CreationPro wrote:We are not banning people for incompetence and never will.

Except that we already do, I gave nuke ops as an example in the OP.

We would also ban revs for not following rev head orders but rev is too chaotic to enforce that.

Malkevin wrote:

CreationPro wrote:We are not banning people for incompetence and never will.

Except that we already do, I gave nuke ops as an example in the OP.

We would also ban revs for not following rev head orders but rev is too chaotic to enforce that.

Solo nuke ops might be the sign of a bad player, but it's more of a "this guy's an asshole" kind of bad than a "this guy has no idea what he's doing" one. They're (usually) incompetent assholes, but they're banned for that second part, not the first.

The only team antag ban I can think of having to be applied for repeatedly ramboing and fucking his teams over because he's a selfish player is Tsaricide (bombing station as a cultist, heading to the station alone wordlessly as a nuke op and ruining their rounds twice).

Most people are fuckups on accident, not on purpose.

The two differentiating factors, basically, are malice and purposefulness.

Suppose Leeroy Jenkins, the Syndicate Operative, forgets to turn on his internals and dies in space. Not on purpose, not malicious, not bannable.
Suppose Leeroy Jenkins, the Syndicate Operative, rambo's in and gets himself killed and screws over the rest of the nuke ops as a result. May or may not be malicious, but definitely on purpose.
Suppose Leeroy Jenkins, the Syndicate Operative, steals the disk and then presents it to the captain saying "I SURRENDER, I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT, THE NUKE OPS SHUTTLE IS THIS WAY." Obviously malicious, obviously bannable.

Malkevin wrote:Except that we already do, I gave nuke ops as an example in the OP.

We would also ban revs for not following rev head orders but rev is too chaotic to enforce that.

Because everybody has to be experienced from the start. No matter that to get that experience you actually have to, oh, I don't know, play?

Banning anybody for being bad at the game is just ridiculous.

Malkevin wrote:

CreationPro wrote:We are not banning people for incompetence and never will.

Except that we already do, I gave nuke ops as an example in the OP.

We would also ban revs for not following rev head orders but rev is too chaotic to enforce that.

No we don't and no we wouldn't, rev heads are fine and all but it comes down to the revs doing all the work, all they have to do is flash away and let the violence be done, rev heads exist to convert people and stay alive, them doing the hard work is optional

Bad ops aren't banned, assholes ops are


If you want to fix cult bring back one man conversions and 3 man sacrifices

The way I see it, we don't job ban shitty ops or shitty engineers is because you have to play to learn.

But cult? You can still learn from being a converted cult, round start cults are special, and those who set it to yes should at least know how to summon a tome, scribe a rune, use tome and innate communicate, and convert.

They don't have to know how to be good, but if they don't know those basics, and they set cult to yes, then well, yes, I can see the argument that that yes should be forcefully changed to no via a cult job ban.

My bane is stupid blobs that have no idea what they are doing I don't see how this is different. I fully support restricting round start cultists they have a specific job to do for getting the round started and some people are just not suitable.

MrStonedOne wrote:The way I see it, we don't job ban shitty ops or shitty engineers is because you have to play to learn.

Literally false. Write better guides. Observe with ghosting. Take notes.

People who use 'I'm new that's why I'm bad and won't follow instructions' as an excuse to be shit or completely ruin a strategy are awful and should untick antag until they've watched a few successful antag rounds, seriously.

paprika wrote:

MrStonedOne wrote:The way I see it, we don't job ban shitty ops or shitty engineers is because you have to play to learn.

Literally false. Write better guides. Observe with ghosting. Take notes.

People who use 'I'm new that's why I'm bad and won't follow instructions' as an excuse to be shit or completely ruin a strategy are awful and should untick antag until they've watched a few successful antag rounds, seriously.

Forcing people to observe in order to be antags is fucking retarded. Not only observing is boring and takes a lot of time, it also doesn't show you jack shit about what people are actually doing.

"Write better guides"
oh god why

ya ban the players who aren't put off by the bad interface and frustrating game mechanics and terrible community for not being as good as veterans

The only way a player can get good at a antag role is to play that role, unfortunately we lack a in game playable tutorial system as such your literally thrown in the deep end.

The only viable solution I can think of is a combination of a good, condensed guide to antag roles, and more importantly a offline tutorial system teaching the basics of every antag role for a player to do in their own time.

A dedicated training server, where players could join and have an experienced player walk them through whatever they needed would solve the issues, assuming it didn't get completely ignored.

Time limits

To

Antag roles

You have to wait three weeks to be a captain, but you can be nuke op, wizard and blob in your first round. Really.

Who cares if you are gonna be playing nuke ops for the first time in three weeks or in three days? It's still gonna be the first time. Admittedly learning basic game mechanics is required, but still.

The point of a day played limit is so a player can at least have a chance to understand the basic game play mechanics, since when it comes to it you can have the most over powered antag abilities yet if you don't even know the nuances of the game, or how to use your radio, your not going to get far.

If you play a blob without seeing how anyone else plays it, you won't get too far.

It could be pretty unlikely that a 3 day old player will know how to use a jet pack to navigate space, its going to be pretty likely a three week old one will.


Same as the above with cult, a 3 day old player its pretty likely they've never seen cult in play let alone be one. a three week one probably has seen one and probably been converted atleast twice.

Sure, delay antags. But not for three weeks. One week? Few days?

It's not gonna make a huge difference either way, in my honest opinion. I'm yet to see somebody who cannot do even basic things as antag. I guess I couldn't see them traitoring, but then who cares?

To be fair, wizard, blob and nuke ops are well protected by limited number of slots available and high demand. I've been wizard like twice and blob once over the course of my entire career. It's highly unlikely to get such a role in the first round or even the first week, even if some stupid person won't listen to guides saying that they shouldn't play antags.

I have had so many bitter experiences with newcult, people are just fucking retarded. As well as the common headache of the round start cultist who reveals the cult by fucking making runes in public/not removing them after use/trying to kill the sac target in public with a cult blade and robes and the occasional round start cultist suicide, so many people seem mentally unable to grasp the concept of standing around a rune.

Seriously, the worst example was a round on sibyl, I had been researched all the words, made like, 20 stun and emp talismans and distributed them, I called for us to mass convert medbay since we were starting to get heat. We had FIVE cultists in medbay, and like 3 non cult in there with us. I got all the non cult emp'd and stunned, had a convert rune, and guess how it turned out? I could not convert a single fucking person. I got ONE person to stand by the rune, while I screamed non stop for cultists to drag fucks to the rune and stand around it. Instead cultists were dragging uncuffed dudes around aimlessly, making new runes for no reason or just pissing about. I ended up dead along with a couple of other cultists, and the rest got arrested.

I literally don't even bother with converting in new cult anymore, it's so much easier and hassle free to just turn people into constructs.

This is the problem with team antag modes, one guy can fuck it up for the rest of them, either intentionally, or just by being a retard/new, but is generally balanced/relies upon all of the team being reasonably competent.

And yes to time locked antags, at bare minimum it means they will have atleast a basic understanding of game mechanics, and ideally will mean that they will have seen other people in those antag roles, so they can get the gist of what to do.
Learning team antag roles is the sam as learning jobs as a newb, you ask someone else what to do, follow them around, and watch and learn.

Well, it is sibyl.