Construction overhaul

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Knira
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Knira » #618135

Bottom post of the previous page:

I don't have any issues with this besides the fact that removing the RPD will make fixing delams way more difficult than they already are, for most people who do not know the engine very well, on top of the fact that running back and forth to replace pipes is going to just be extremely frustrating and making suicide in SM round start way more harder to deal with since the default Sm setup is complete ass and will clog and need pipe replacements.
ELES
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by ELES » #618137

oranges wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:02 am it's not a removal, they're being consolidated into one item which has slightly more tradeoffs that require active user decision making.
oranges wrote:Lets be blunt, the Rapid Cable Layer(RCL), the Rapid Pipe Dispenser (RPD) and the Rapid Construction Device (RCD) are all removed outright

Regardless or what language is used though, the point is that removing the other hand tools(especially when hand laying pipes has been neglected in favor of the RPD as is) is not a good idea, especially when it means roughly half the station has to have the full engineering suite just to do their jobs. Though I think the RCT as a replacement for the RCD is good because it's not strictly a nerf to engineering, and merely shifts the role into a stronger focus on actual repair/rebuild instead of "koolaid man into the AI sat and kill the malf AI and click space tiles to magic floors into existence" it serves right now.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by oranges » #618138

We disagree on that point, yes people have to adapt, but it won't ruin their lives, and I don't think it's so much of a cost that it's a bad idea, especially when it allow for more tradeoffs to be made when using the RAT.
ELES
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by ELES » #618144

If the response to criticism is going to be some variation of deal with it, why ask for criticism?

Pipe dispensers(for hand piping) are literally broken right now, and cause issues if you try to use them to expand pipenets, which isn't often noticed because even trying to use them is painful due to an ancient UI. There are no items to hold pipes for construction(whereas there is for construction proper or most other forms of building). The entire user experience for building pipenets has been built around the RPD. Removing it would make doing any sort of work with the pipe networks unreasonably painful. That's just a fact.

Secondly, giving RCTs to other departments is going to push those departments to do engineering things. Engineers are already getting a lot of their content straight up cut out, and giving the tools to easily fix breaches to Sci and med is just going to lead to weird situations where engineers have literally nothing to do all shift. It's like giving medical gear to service, or RD consoles to sec. It's weird, and leads to less interdepartmental interaction, making rounds less interesting.
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Jonathan Gupta
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Jonathan Gupta » #618148

I usually just use iron rods and floor tiles to fix holes at this point, its a waste of time to pull out a rct if it takes 3-5 minutes, at that point Id rather just build girders hand made(Also it walks slow and runs slow so its just meh at that point)
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Farquaar
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Farquaar » #618149

ELES wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:37 amEngineers are already getting a lot of their content straight up cut out, and giving the tools to easily fix breaches to Sci and med is just going to lead to weird situations where engineers have literally nothing to do all shift.
You use RCDs to repair hull breaches? Wat? Just place a floor dude.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by oranges » #618152

ELES wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:37 am If the response to criticism is going to be some variation of deal with it, why ask for criticism?
Because some criticism is useful and some isn't
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Kel
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Kel » #618155

toxins guy will now not only steal your roboticist's plasteel, he will also force you to make an rct for him
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WeenMachine4003
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by WeenMachine4003 » #618160

This seems like a bit of a mess for plumbing, considering how it's just one more thing to get in the way of an already cramped space. Riding the thing will probably remedy this, and being able to unsecure and push/pull everything around will make this a bit of a non-problem. I think the biggest issue though is lavaland chemicals. Almost nobody uses them as it is, and I'm sure having to steal medical's only construction pet, and shepherding it across the entirety of lavaland and back to get exotic stabilizer will surely kill the feature. Lavaland chemist is pretty fun, and it'd suck for geyser scrounging to fall by the wayside because of an otherwise solid plumbing change. Maybe having two chemistry plumbing pets will help, but I think the problem stands. It's just impractical to try to play payload against lavaland creatures, and only to make a pump and an output gate. Other than that, it feels like this change was built for plumbing, considering how preplanned most of it is anyway.
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Farquaar
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Farquaar » #618163

WeenMachine4003 wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:15 am This seems like a bit of a mess for plumbing, considering how it's just one more thing to get in the way of an already cramped space.
When the design doc talks about replacing the Rapid Pipe Dispenser, I don't think it's talking about replacing the plumbing constructor. So we can probably rest easy there.

Speaking to the hypothetical however, removing the plumbing constructor would be a mistake in my view. Not only due to space constraints, but also the differing natures of standard construction compared to plumbing. Plumbing involves a lot of tweaking and experimentation. You frequently have to tear down old setups and and pull things around in order to keep things working properly. God forbid if there's a second chemist who wants to play chemfactory on the same shift; you'll be lucky to have a single tile pathway across the room. Unless we start seeing problems with tiders using plumbing constructors as a shortcut into the Armory or AI upload, there aren't any problems that are fixed by restricting plumbing to RCTs.
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CMDR_Gungnir
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #618171

I think this is a good idea, other than the removal of all the over tools. Keep the RPD, hell even keep the RCD. This feels like you're amputating the arm to fix a fleshwound.

Instead of removing a tool that works well because some people misuse and abuse it, find ways to fix the way it's being improperly used. But removal of all those other tools (half of which aren't even the problem) isn't the way to go about fixing it. Fix the combat building, and leave the RCD as an alternative tool. Gives people a choice to make. Do they use the RCD to fix it, knowing it's a more personally-intensive solution, or do they go grab the RCT and let it run things on its own?

The RPD and RCL being removed for this is absolutely insane, though.
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GamerAndYeahMick
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by GamerAndYeahMick » #618177

Okay so I thought of a neat idea to make it have the same amount of control as the RPD, and to make it so that it isn't absolutely an ass-ache to actually do atmos stuff with, so I was thinking that someone could make it so it opened up a menu that projected an image of the area much like how this neat admin button does (ignore the scribble line)
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And basically the idea is that it would open up a projection of the area, you could click on the projection of the area with a selected atmos pipe or whatever and then it would go along and build your setup from the projection, not sure how feasible this is but just thought it could be a neat implementation that would offer the same ability to make neat setups
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EuSouAFazenda
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by EuSouAFazenda » #618181

oranges wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:02 am it's not a removal, they're being consolidated into one item which has slightly more tradeoffs that require active user decision making.
If you're taking something and turning it into something that acts completely different then you're removing and replacing it.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by oranges » #618197

you have a very strange definition of acting completely different.
CMDR_Gungnir
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #618248

I do seriously want to reiterate that all of the tools should remain though, because removing the ability for Engineering to choose the right tool for the right job is just dumbing it down and actively removing gameplay, which is something we really shouldn't be encouraging.
Rune_Quester
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Rune_Quester » #618249

Im with CMDR here. I don't see why we should remove the RCD and RPD, when all 3 can co-exist. Truck can go repair the massive gaping hole while you repair smaller shit with RCD and you can do precise finangling with the RPD.
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Tohg7.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Tohg7. » #618314

I think it would be a good idea for the different types of RAT Tractor to have a PAI Personality slot that's unable to be unlocked by their respective IDs so PAIs can build and deconstruct on their own, anyone in favor?
Last edited by Tohg7. on Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Pandarsenic
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Pandarsenic » #618316

Losing the RPD as an independent handheld device, IMO, would make experimenting with fun atmos projects a huge pain. Just... really unpleasant. I'm having flashbacks to the old days of having to do atmospheric changes by hand, dispensing the pipes one at a time from the big machine.
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Pandarsenic
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Pandarsenic » #618323

Double-post to address it in pure numerical terms:
oranges wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:03 am
halitosisman wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:01 am Mining does not supply the amount of metal needed to build a basic room from scratch any earlier than the one hour mark on average. Your proposal, as written, will not enable large scale construction because the escape shuttle usually arrives by then.
This isn't a rebalance of mining, but I"d like to see more data on this issue.
Correct me if any of this is wrong, but...

Material Math:
► Show Spoiler
Some small rooms' size requirements to compare number of floor tiles in some easily-recognized rooms:

9: Airlock gates at Virology, Xenobio, etc.;
12: Meta Escape Security Station; Meta old Nanite Lab, not counting the attached lobby/waiting area;
15: Meta Auxiliary Surgery; Meta Primary Tool Storage & Meta Auxiliary Tool Storage
24: Meta Medbay Break room, though it's irregularly shaped
25: The Vault (every Vault, I think?)
30: Meta Virology main room; Meta Tech Storage (and I think most other

(We can generalize a quick total metal cost formula for a room of x by y size to x*y floors and 4(2x+2y+4) walls, assuming you do all the corners; we can simplify that to

Code: Select all

Arbitrary Rectangles:
xy + 8(x+y) + 16

Squares:
x^2+16x+16 for a nice parabola
For a progression of pointlessly small to normally-sized square room sizes, we get:
  • 33 sheets but also dude why
  • 52
  • 73
  • 96
  • 121
  • 148
The very common small 5x3 room is 95 sheets and a 6x4 room is 120 sheets (an even two stacks!). Meta Chemistry is slightly irregularly shaped and comes out to around 150, give or take; its HoP office is around 130, if we pretend that the floors are metal instead of wood there.

I have no idea how much more or less efficient RCDs are than manual construction.

Metal arrival:
► Show Spoiler
If we mark 84 sheets for a "modest" 3x4 room as a good benchmark for a bare minimum, we can compare that to a cyborg's cost of 25 for the torso, 30 for the full set of limbs+head, ignoring the 1.5 sheets for flashes, the cost of cells, MMI, etc.

And that room is enough metal to build a cyborg (55 sheets) and a half, not accounting for part upgrades to the ExoFabs.

A 5x5 room takes enough to build 2 cyborgs entirely, plus the miscellaneous parts and the tools to assemble them with, and have a few sheets to spare.
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Pandarsenic
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Pandarsenic » #618324

Putting this in a separate post (triple post power woohoo) so it stays away from all the data, I think the reason miners bring in so little iron is because, frankly, it's nearly worthless in terms of getting Gamer Loot, which is their usual primary motivation. When I mine, I will not target even the most sizable concentrations of iron intentionally unless I can fire a plasma cutter and hit it at the same time as I hit something else without missing a more valuable mineral at the same time.
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FantasticFwoosh
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #618328

Keeping in mind if you're a expert ashwalker who arguably does more creative engineering from scratch than any engineer does per average on station (not pertaining to energy net configuration), a RCD worth of materials runs out after every 6th-7th wall use from full, but is powered entirely by glass because the conversion ratio of the RCD is indiscriminate & deliberately a resource hog.

The floor isn't made out of iron ore as a plentyfully (and this goes out of the window for icebox) to keep up a stricter machine or handheld device, and multiplication ORM's / critical refinery rework would be required to go back in to meet the demand, following up Pandarsenic's seemingly solid statements, or mass shipments of metal from cargo.

Hippiestation too, which has arguably a much higher index of things exploding at any one time due to a notoriously lowrp crew (when its busy not being dead with a patron who hates it and is summarily hated in return) completely substituted mining for a bluespace generation of minerals, because overall without merging of miner gamer loot bulk PR's coming downstream from /tg/, it didn't make it worthwhile.

Spoiler:
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Tohg7.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Tohg7. » #618357

I think that the RAT Tractors should have a PAI Personality slot so PAIs can construct and deconstruct. I also think that the RCD should be replaced, but the RPD should be kept unless if it will be part of the Atmos RAT Tractor and PAIs can use it when put in the tractor.
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oranges
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by oranges » #618361

Thank you for doing all that math, that's really useful, pretty clear then we need to make the metals more accessible, I'm not opposed to regular scheduled deliveries of iron and glass to the cargo bay that they have to put into the silos.
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Mickyan
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Mickyan » #618367

In terms of resource acquisition it would probably help if the mining points payout was at least partially based on the amount of that specific material already in the silo so miners are encouraged to keep all materials equally stocked
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Yulice
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Yulice » #618373

Mickyan wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 12:47 am In terms of resource acquisition it would probably help if the mining points payout was at least partially based on the amount of that specific material already in the silo so miners are encouraged to keep all materials equally stocked
This would be a nightmare to balance because as a miner I would probably just run up, empty the silo via the orm of everything, then deposit my bag for more points.
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Mickyan
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Mickyan » #618386

You can set the bonus based on the total submitted amount instead of current stock
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FantasticFwoosh
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #618397

Mickyan wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 12:48 pm You can set the bonus based on the total submitted amount instead of current stock
Gatcha mining, ORM's drop lootboxes on free-mium milestones of common mining loot (heal-pens, pods) until every 5 levels you earn a key to a premium box with a ORM redemption skill level cap of 30, in which then all your points are converted into three sets of ingame bitcoin currency, but effectively work the same but relative to which yields of low drop mineral you bring in (Plamo, Titanigma, Uranix) to purchase epic, or a flat cost in all for premium or normal common. Then you have to combine 6 personalized boss tarot cards dropped on a 1/10th chance of a boss kill together to make a legendary crate key to open the tumor chests.

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Finally some good sources of iron for a wholesome when miners are so tweaked-out on gambling they wont care they are clicking a wall with no additional gameplay all without grinding together rice-crispies. Also yes, would people actually bother to mutate metal-cap in botany just to access iron or alternatives of processing it with plasma and ice-chilli's as a alternative obvious option if the stakes of botany weren't simply high enough already?

Spoiler:
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cacogen
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by cacogen » #618413

Cargo can order materials like metal and glass if necessary. They can even sell other materials to fund it. If mining isn't producing enough ore, then you could just increase the amount each mineral deposit drops.
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Highway Routine
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Highway Routine » #620339

I think the tractor would be good for mass construction. But keep the rest.
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The_Silver_Nuke
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by The_Silver_Nuke » #626632

>game of tower fortress where everyone duels with construction systems

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serxule
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by serxule » #626639

im fine with everything EXCEPT the rpd being nerfed, seriously, what purpose does nerfing the rpd do other than make any piping more difficult? like toxins, atmos, SM, transit tubes, disposals, etc, all of that being forced into the rct sounds like itd take a really long damn time, and would just slow down everything, (instead of making it faster, ironic), compared to the rpd which fits in a toolbelt and is quick and easy to use, and also removing all "complex" features would make it hell to do anything to, it just sounds like a massive nerf to atmos/anything pipe related. RCD nerf makes sense, (although 2-3 walls seems way too extreme, maybe have it be like 5).
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