/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

whodaloo wrote:but you wouldn't be able to get them out unless it was a code red aaaaaaaaaaaagh

Read what I said, As soon as Code Red gets dropped the Departments not in Security control are going to get looted.

The idea is to give Security the means to fight back, not nerf them further and give Antagonists free gear.

id lock the cases so that randos can't get them then if you're truly that worried about it ┐(￣ー￣)┌

but to be honest that sounds like a good time, pitched gunfights with sec versus cultists? sign me the fuck up

whodaloo wrote:id lock the cases so that randos can't get them then if you're truly that worried about it ┐(￣ー￣)┌

but to be honest that sounds like a good time, pitched gunfights with sec versus cultists? sign me the fuck up

By the time Code Red gets dropped one Sec officer will most likely have been looted or there will be emags.

Tornadium wrote:

whodaloo wrote:id lock the cases so that randos can't get them then if you're truly that worried about it ┐(￣ー￣)┌

but to be honest that sounds like a good time, pitched gunfights with sec versus cultists? sign me the fuck up

By the time Code Red gets dropped one Sec officer will most likely have been looted or there will be emags.

gosh you're right we should just give them loyalty firing pins too so those darn dirty antags can't use them!!!!!!!!!

whodaloo wrote:

Tornadium wrote:

whodaloo wrote:id lock the cases so that randos can't get them then if you're truly that worried about it ┐(￣ー￣)┌

but to be honest that sounds like a good time, pitched gunfights with sec versus cultists? sign me the fuck up

By the time Code Red gets dropped one Sec officer will most likely have been looted or there will be emags.

gosh you're right we should just give them loyalty firing pins too so those darn dirty antags can't use them!!!!!!!!!

I'm saying they shouldn't be free weapons.

What's the point of replacing tasers with weak pistols? The taser is used for nonlethal takedowns, and having to use pistols that deal damage just to get someone to stop is going to cause bizarre escalations of force ("he stole that assistant's medkit and ran, so I had to shoot him with lethals") and the issue of causing human harm every time sec wants to arrest a running suspect, putting sec on bad terms with the silicons from square one

And a gun that can shoot both lethal and nonlethal shots? That's called an egun and is already a thing, what would giving sec service pistols do that they can't?

i think the goal is to give them lethals as a sidearm to stuns, for things like taking down unstunnable stuff like rogue borgs or ops with eshields or cultist constructs. not to replace stuns

PKPenguin321 wrote:i think the goal is to give them lethals as a sidearm to stuns, for things like taking down unstunnable stuff like rogue borgs or ops with eshields or cultist constructs. not to replace stuns

Then give them stechkins, 25 brute, 8 to a clip, 1 spare clip, one in every sec office and unlocked with an ID swipe or smashing open the case.

Zilenan91 wrote:

PKPenguin321 wrote:i think the goal is to give them lethals as a sidearm to stuns, for things like taking down unstunnable stuff like rogue borgs or ops with eshields or cultist constructs. not to replace stuns

Then give them stechkins, 25 brute, 8 to a clip, 1 spare clip, one in every sec office and unlocked with an ID swipe or smashing open the case.

Or put spares in the brig next to the lockers and just have them spawn with one.

But there are already laser guns? And borgs can be stunned with flashes and flashbangs

Shaps wrote:But there are already laser guns? And borgs can be stunned with flashes and flashbangs

Lasers are fucking dogshit vs a lot of threats.

Plus they only get handed out on code red.

Tornadium wrote:

Malkevin wrote:Theres a keycard swiper in every head's office, as well as one of the bridge.

That's not too bad then, However it does require two heads to swipe at the same time am I right?

Meaning for security to be even remotely effective combating any kind of threat where those weapons are needed (see: all of them) you're reliant on non-security personel.

I feel that's kinda shitty with the amount of nerfs they've already gotten and how many buffs antags have.

> Security.
> Nerfs in recent mind.
> Not just reversions of massive retarded buffs (headcams).

And so the cycle begins anew. Antags haven't gotten severely buffed in recent mind either, sans lings. Stop strawmanning.

Traitors especially have been shit on constantly, and the only way you can have some form of fair ground is by abusing cheesy strategies like water/lube.

Regardless of what you do, even though !FREE! ballistic weapons for security is going to create a trillion and one balance problems (i.e. the tator esword should have it's cost slashed in half, since half the allure is gone [being able to shut down standard ranged stunning/damaging capabilities of security at the cost of forcing yourself into melee range, good for baiting a baton]. It also means the syndicate pistol should be made 3-4 TC, if all of security get the exact same gun, but for fucking free with replenishable ammo since, unlike Random McTraitor, they can usually just ask cargo / R&D to make more)]. Also, they must be made thievable, and not be located in the armory unless behind snowflake forcefields that only deactivate in red alert; and if not located in the armory, in emaggable cases that can be broken with force 10+ weapons, but raise alarms and bolts the door in response. A second, perhaps more interesting option, would be to have them forcefielded. This forcefield would be unbreakable, but would deactivate in red alert OR when power is lost (EMP works!) OR when emagged. The AI would have control over it as well.

I feel like this gives opportunity for tators to use it, while at the same time providing opportunity for security to use it as well when they need to. That said, I feel the armory is not the right place for this, given how much valuable equipment is easily found there as-is.

Without these caveats, adding a projectile lethal weapon with decent brute is a massive fucking buff to security, finishing what is and has been essentially a better traitor loadout, but for free, with no counterweight, i.e. potential for an antag to use it without killing officers to obtain that equipment.

I still personally think it's just a plain bad idea. The best idea here is to replace the shotgun rubber bullets in the locker with slugs, which means you have 3 riot shotguns that can be used in a situation, but not every fucking security guard would have them, and there would be fairly limited ammo.

"Antags haven't been buffed"

"Security gets positive changes"

This subforum is a fucking joke jesus christ

Scones wrote:"Antags haven't been buffed"

"Security gets positive changes"

This subforum is a fucking joke jesus christ

Okay, so when was the last security nerf that wasn't just a revision of something blatantly ridiculously stupid to add in the first place like headcams?

When was the last flat antag buff sans the ling one? Especially for traitors.

Amelius wrote:

Scones wrote:"Antags haven't been buffed"

"Security gets positive changes"

This subforum is a fucking joke jesus christ

Okay, so when was the last security nerf that wasn't just a revision of something blatantly ridiculously stupid to add in the first place like headcams?

When was the last flat antag buff sans the ling one? Especially for traitors.

Nigga, it'd be a buff for antags, because so long as one officer is braindead and gets caught by an antag, then they have their gun. All sec needs is their tasers and their batons to pacify antags, the extra lethals are going to be a plus for antags after they stun and strip them.

Amelius wrote:

Scones wrote:"Antags haven't been buffed"

"Security gets positive changes"

This subforum is a fucking joke jesus christ

Okay, so when was the last security nerf that wasn't just a revision of something blatantly ridiculously stupid to add in the first place like headcams?

When was the last flat antag buff sans the ling one? Especially for traitors.

They recently had their armour nerfed significantly
Flashbangs were made significantly more risky to use
Tazers were made short range with a huge fire delay

True, even the HoS's armour is only slightly (5 points) stronger than a standard armour vest, of which the vest is even weaker (25 melee protection off the bat).

I thought the fire delay was gone?

Long range tasers need to be a thing, though, at least for mechs. And give borgs their zappies back.

Malkevin wrote:

Amelius wrote:

Scones wrote:"Antags haven't been buffed"

"Security gets positive changes"

This subforum is a fucking joke jesus christ

Okay, so when was the last security nerf that wasn't just a revision of something blatantly ridiculously stupid to add in the first place like headcams?

When was the last flat antag buff sans the ling one? Especially for traitors.

They recently had their armour nerfed significantly
Flashbangs were made significantly more risky to use
Tazers were made short range with a huge fire delay

Not to mention the 100% block rate on energy projectiles from Laser Swords, Revolvers crit in 3 shots? No-drop implants, Bioterror Shogun ammunition....

I could go on.

Tornadium wrote:

Malkevin wrote:

Amelius wrote:

Scones wrote:"Antags haven't been buffed"

"Security gets positive changes"

This subforum is a fucking joke jesus christ

Okay, so when was the last security nerf that wasn't just a revision of something blatantly ridiculously stupid to add in the first place like headcams?

When was the last flat antag buff sans the ling one? Especially for traitors.

They recently had their armour nerfed significantly
Flashbangs were made significantly more risky to use
Tazers were made short range with a huge fire delay

Not to mention the 100% block rate on energy projectiles from Laser Swords, Revolvers crit in 3 shots? No-drop implants, Bioterror Shogun ammunition....

I could go on.

No-drops were removed I though, sans in R&D? Bioterror was noticeably OP, but OP-exclusive. Double eswords have ALWAYS had a 100% block rate (and single ones do not have a 100% block rate), revolvers have always crit in 2-3 shots, with or without armor nerfs.

Armor nerfs aren't as bad as you'd think, because not only is security squishier, but antags with sec equipment (i.e. after they kill a single officer) are squishier as well. It's double-faceted. Furthermore, all it does is allow one to kill the opposition faster, when stuns and disablers are the be-all-end-all generally, sans ops and gang, which renders damage resistance usually a null factor (i.e. you'd get dunked ANYWAY with past values, it just took longer, rendering melee weaponry kinda useless against sec).

Taser fire delay is gone.

Flashbangs weren't made significantly more risky for sec to use in the slightest. It only now stuns if you're ON TOP OF THE FLASHBANG, which almost never happens.

Flashes were buffed to the point of ridiculousness in terms of being able to completely shut down anyone without sunglasses by spamming it.

Tasers were made short range forever ago, and, again, that influences antags, though less so, as well. Removal of short range tasers, or making them upgradeable rangewise, and reintroducing the spammable longer-range ebow would be pretty fair and a good change, I feel.

Laser guns are actually pretty easy to get as a sec officer. You just go to the warden, say "can I get a laser weapon, because [INSERT CURRENT ANTAGONIST] is too dangerous to fight without one" and so long as that's true (which it is for almost anything but traitor) you're allowed it.

In any case, at 25 brute stetchkins are more deadly than a laser, since they would crit in 4 shots not 5. Besides that, bullets deal 'bullet' damage that's less normally armoured against than 'laser' damage, and the results of a shooting will make people bleed (whereas laser fire only gives people cloudy vision).

Anyway, I think there's a nice easy solution that's better than this. Shove the riot shotguns already in the armoury full of slugs, instead of partially full of that most unhelpful of all shots, beanbag. Fill the ammunition locker in the armoury with a couple more boxes of slugs, instead of strewn around beanbag shells. And that's it. These shotguns can already be held on the exosuit slot for armour, they'll do 60 damage thus loaded, they're relatively clunky to provide a tradeoff with laser, and if you want they can be sawn off in the transfer centre. Sorted.

Cheimon wrote:Laser guns are actually pretty easy to get as a sec officer. You just go to the warden, say "can I get a laser weapon, because [INSERT CURRENT ANTAGONIST] is too dangerous to fight without one" and so long as that's true (which it is for almost anything but traitor) you're allowed it.

In any case, at 25 brute stetchkins are more deadly than a laser, since they would crit in 4 shots not 5. Besides that, bullets deal 'bullet' damage that's less normally armoured against than 'laser' damage, and the results of a shooting will make people bleed (whereas laser fire only gives people cloudy vision).

Anyway, I think there's a nice easy solution that's better than this. Shove the riot shotguns already in the armoury full of slugs, instead of partially full of that most unhelpful of all shots, beanbag. Fill the ammunition locker in the armoury with a couple more boxes of slugs, instead of strewn around beanbag shells. And that's it. These shotguns can already be held on the exosuit slot for armour, they'll do 60 damage thus loaded, they're relatively clunky to provide a tradeoff with laser, and if you want they can be sawn off in the transfer centre. Sorted.

They're still kept in the armory though.

The point is they need default sidearms.

Tornadium wrote:

Cheimon wrote:Laser guns are actually pretty easy to get as a sec officer. You just go to the warden, say "can I get a laser weapon, because [INSERT CURRENT ANTAGONIST] is too dangerous to fight without one" and so long as that's true (which it is for almost anything but traitor) you're allowed it.

In any case, at 25 brute stetchkins are more deadly than a laser, since they would crit in 4 shots not 5. Besides that, bullets deal 'bullet' damage that's less normally armoured against than 'laser' damage, and the results of a shooting will make people bleed (whereas laser fire only gives people cloudy vision).

Anyway, I think there's a nice easy solution that's better than this. Shove the riot shotguns already in the armoury full of slugs, instead of partially full of that most unhelpful of all shots, beanbag. Fill the ammunition locker in the armoury with a couple more boxes of slugs, instead of strewn around beanbag shells. And that's it. These shotguns can already be held on the exosuit slot for armour, they'll do 60 damage thus loaded, they're relatively clunky to provide a tradeoff with laser, and if you want they can be sawn off in the transfer centre. Sorted.

They're still kept in the armory though.

The point is they need default sidearms.

Stechkins. 1 spare clip in each office, unlocked via sec ID or busting open the case.

Zilenan91 wrote:

Tornadium wrote:

Cheimon wrote:Laser guns are actually pretty easy to get as a sec officer. You just go to the warden, say "can I get a laser weapon, because [INSERT CURRENT ANTAGONIST] is too dangerous to fight without one" and so long as that's true (which it is for almost anything but traitor) you're allowed it.

In any case, at 25 brute stetchkins are more deadly than a laser, since they would crit in 4 shots not 5. Besides that, bullets deal 'bullet' damage that's less normally armoured against than 'laser' damage, and the results of a shooting will make people bleed (whereas laser fire only gives people cloudy vision).

Anyway, I think there's a nice easy solution that's better than this. Shove the riot shotguns already in the armoury full of slugs, instead of partially full of that most unhelpful of all shots, beanbag. Fill the ammunition locker in the armoury with a couple more boxes of slugs, instead of strewn around beanbag shells. And that's it. These shotguns can already be held on the exosuit slot for armour, they'll do 60 damage thus loaded, they're relatively clunky to provide a tradeoff with laser, and if you want they can be sawn off in the transfer centre. Sorted.

They're still kept in the armory though.

The point is they need default sidearms.

Stechkins. 1 spare clip in each office, unlocked via sec ID or busting open the case.

Seems good to me as long as they spawn with officers.

Then why ever buy a sketchkin for half your TC when literally every fucking guard on the station has one and copious amounts of ammo? Why buy a double esword for 16 TC when every officer will just switch to their sketchkin and shit on you, remove the entire allure of the weapon? Nuke ops would be shit on with this change, they have very even winrates, yet with a free sketchkin for all the guards you end up with a huge advantage for crew, being able to effectively ignore the super expensive eshields, range constraints, and firepower constraints enmasse, like some sort of mini ops squad.

I keep saying it, but standard sidearms are going to cause so many fucking balance issues it's not worth it. Slugs in the shotguns? Sure, that's fine I suppose, so long as there is limited ammo and not a trillion slugs in the brig. But standard non-energy sidearms is just gonna cause more problems than it'll solve.

If you give stetchkins to sec officers, don't forget to remove the objectively worse, fewer-in-number 20 burn lasers from the armory. And also give all antag armor +50 bullet resist because fucking hell.

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:If you give stetchkins to sec officers, don't forget to remove the objectively worse, fewer-in-number 20 burn lasers from the armory. And also give all antag armor +50 bullet resist because fucking hell.

This is another thing. We have some sort of quaint balance where nothing has great bullet resistance, while it's the type most used by syndies, with the drawback of non-rechargeable ammo, no stun, and loud/obvious illegal usage, so that a tator CAN feasibly deal with high priority targets with expensive ammunition effectively, justifying their cost and use of a lethal weapon above, say, a taser. This is another aspect in that it'll fuck up that part of the balance in the game - we'd need to buff antagonist armor somehow, which, to a certain extent, comes down to buffing sec's armor too, since most antags only source of armor is from looting checkpoints or sec corpses. Thus, these tools become effectively severely nerfed just because with the TC cost unchanged, nerfing tators even more than they already are.

It's a terrible idea in every sense. So much of the current, tenuous balance is built on sec having access primarily to energy weapons, and only a scant supply of bullets.

P.S. Laser weapons serve a purpose, in having renewable ammunition sources. They need to stay otherwise sec is 100% dependent on metal and cargo for basic operation in conversion roundtypes, especially.

just replace tasers with pulse rifles.

Septavius wrote:just replace tasers with PULSE DESTROYERS.

ftfy

>not m1911-ps

come on if you want to go pulse there's only one non-pleb option

how about instead of giving sec a default lethal weapon we make the "lethal" weapon they have not suck?

lasers are easily the worst lethals in the game.

20 damage, 10 shots, bolts move slow as shit, can't be quickly reloaded, causes burn damage.

The syndicate "side arm" the stetchkin is superior in every way to the main security laser rifle.


The only reason that it isnt noticed that much that lasers suck is because the security taser/baton/flashbang stuns completely dominates fights against humanoids.

lasers 20 -> 25 damage
laser shots 10 ->14

remove the department and issue the general crew with weapons

I agree that any lethal weapon officers get as standard issue should be energy based.

I still think a sort of hybrid Taser with a lethal setting might be interesting if tied to the station's alert status.

But ultimantly I think buffing Laser guns would be a better way forward, having them deal about 30+ damage per shot and increasing their ammo capacity to 20 or 30 rounds would be a good buff, counter it with a longer recharge time if you must.

Are lasers slower than bullets?
I thought all projectiles traveled at the same speed?

Steelpoint wrote:I agree that any lethal weapon officers get as standard issue should be energy based.

I still think a sort of hybrid Taser with a lethal setting might be interesting if tied to the station's alert status.

But ultimantly I think buffing Laser guns would be a better way forward, having them deal about 30+ damage per shot and increasing their ammo capacity to 20 or 30 rounds would be a good buff, counter it with a longer recharge time if you must.

The buff wouldn't do shit, At least with the current Nuke meta.

Can we at least try having a ballistic side arm?

Security Officers are already loot piñatas; giving them a ballistic sidearm, whilst undoubtedly useful, would cause even more balance problems.

TheNightingale wrote:Security Officers are already loot piñatas; giving them a ballistic sidearm, whilst undoubtedly useful, would cause even more balance problems.

I don't think it would, Especially considering against any serious threat lasers straight up don't cut it.

Lasers should be buffed.

Either ammo capacity or damage.

As they stand now I'd rather just beat someone with a baton and deal with all the risk that brings, until you get the stun off

Takeguru wrote:Lasers should be buffed.

Either ammo capacity or damage.

As they stand now I'd rather just beat someone with a baton and deal with all the risk that brings, until you get the stun off

They need to have higher damage and 100% energy resist needs to go.

There is no 100% energy resist.

All damage resist caps at 90%, and you only really get that consistently with melee.

Now, you can prevent the energy weapon from ever hitting you by using dual e-sword, but you can't use range yourself while doing it which opens you up to a lucky baton hit.

Or a flashbang. Or teargas/pepperspray , if you're particularly ill-equipped.
Or breaking out the riot shotties.

Still, higher damage for lasers I could get behind.

CPTANT wrote:how about instead of giving sec a default lethal weapon we make the "lethal" weapon they have not suck?

lasers are easily the worst lethals in the game.

20 damage, 10 shots, bolts move slow as shit, can't be quickly reloaded, causes burn damage.

The syndicate "side arm" the stetchkin is superior in every way to the main security laser rifle.


The only reason that it isnt noticed that much that lasers suck is because the security taser/baton/flashbang stuns completely dominates fights against humanoids.

lasers 20 -> 25 damage
laser shots 10 ->14

Do this. I have no idea why lasers haven't been buffed yet. It's really stupid that you need to recharge after critting one person, due to armor, inaccuracy, and so forth.

Opinion: Despite the presence of a brig, security should, primarily, be for station defence; that is to say, when external threats come along, security gears up, smacks the captain's hand away from the stubbed toe button, and deals with it, rather than fleeing or primarily focusing on micromanagement of the crew.

Problem: Security's equipment is optimised for subduing the crew, including rogue elements ie. stun weapons.

Solution: Give security access to more lethal weapons, with which to better protect the station from external elements.

Problem: Security's current focus on crew management will inevitably result in lethal response to crew misdemeanours.

Solution: Improve security policy, so that security members will quickly be made aware that crewmen that need to be taken care of (and infiltrators) are to be stunned and subdued (as only the captain can authorise executions in the majority of cases), whilst external threats are reasonable to use deadly force on.

> bwoink security more for dealing with onstation shitters

Are you 100% serious right now?

Wyzack wrote:> bwoink security more for dealing with onstation shitters

Are you 100% serious right now?

This entire thread is one step forward, two steps back.

AnonymousNow wrote: Solution: Improve security policy, so that security members will quickly be made aware that crewmen that need to be taken care of (and infiltrators) are to be stunned and subdued (as only the captain can authorise executions in the majority of cases), whilst external threats are reasonable to use deadly force on.

Spoiler:

Yes, I'm still annoyed about the time where a security officer found me (as a traitor) changing into a different jumpsuit in maintenance (my first traitorous act), stunned me, stripped me of my earpiece, looked into my recently-unlocked PDA, spawned an energy sword, killed me with it, stole the rest of my equipment, put my body into a locker and left, all without saying a word (and being proven by the end-of-round report not to be an antagonist of any sort). That's bad conduct for a security force.

No! Fuck you sheepy, I finally convinced the headmins to remove that stupid asinine policy and I sure as Hell don't want to see it again.

As for your spoiler, git gud faggot.
Sometimes you just lose.

Yes, yes, very constructive.

It goes without saying that there are instances where "screw the captain, shit's going down" will happen, and be acceptable. But security is, and has been for some time, the secondary antagonist to most modes, and that is terrible.

AnonymousNow wrote: But security is, and has been for some time, the secondary antagonist to most modes, and that is terrible.

can i get some examples

Scones wrote:

AnonymousNow wrote: But security is, and has been for some time, the secondary antagonist to most modes, and that is terrible.

can i get some examples

It's simple - every instance is based around a combination of power tripping and paranoia.

Extended, Traitor, Changeling, Traitorchan, Double Agent: I've lost track of the amount of times security has followed a tipoff to an illogical conclusion, with various flavours of lone or groups of officers deciding to act on vague suggestions or even their own "gut feelings" to get random people arrested, beaten or both. Since they have the guns, they must be the supreme authority, right? I'll never forget the time when security ordered a full-on raid into my HoP office five minutes into the round, suspecting me of being a changeling because I didn't have a loyalty implant - I was later beaten to death in prison by a cyborg sent to execute me, screaming "LAW ONE!" with no headset. More recent examples have included people slow on the uptake regarding random searches getting uppity when you're busy in your department and not standing around when there's people dying around you, and the straight-up "permabrig him until we think of something better" arseholes.
More to it is that Space Station 13 makes people paranoid, and people with weapons get disproportionately paranoid. It feels like saying "DON'T BE A DICK" in bolder letters to security officers doesn't always stop them from being hypersensitive to "suspicious" behaviour.
Bonus - there have been many cases where cyborgs preventing the beating of prisoners have been destroyed for being obstructive.
Wizard: An odd one, but an instance I encountered - security beat the wizard to death, and then spaced his body. When the round wasn't ending, their scrutiny fell on the crew in such a bludgeoning manner that it literally turned into a witchhunt, and security began hording the bodies they were making instead of letting them get cloned.
Revolution: At least at one point, people could be deconverted by being beaten really hard in the head. I've seen instances where, if it didn't work, people were happy to leave the dying around. Admittedly that was a long time ago.

Essentially, security have a tendency towards disproportionate response which can hamper their ability to aid the crew in instances where there are other antagonists to deal with.

Sounds like a negative outlook on your part

Security is not a secondary antagonist

Scones wrote:Sounds like a negative outlook on your part

Security is not a secondary antagonist

It's a negative outlook formed and reinforced over about five years.

Every round, I have to try and make sure security doesn't randomly fuck me over for no raisins, no matter what my role is. I do not always succeed.