/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

Steelpoint wrote:Hence why these discussions never get anything done, any good ideas get ignored down the line and forgotten.

Steelpoint wrote:My concern with walking will be how sluggish it feels, with the current move speed it feels slightly fluid, whereas when you walk you notice how you keep stopping and starting with each tile you move.

ShadowDimentio wrote:
Also why the fuck do you want to molest movespeed? That sounds god awful.

MisterPerson wrote:

Steelpoint wrote:My concern with walking will be how sluggish it feels, with the current move speed it feels slightly fluid, whereas when you walk you notice how you keep stopping and starting with each tile you move.

I tried to fix this and people complained that they proffered the jittery movement over smooth movement.

IcePacks wrote:make it so that damage causes you to get up (and heals stamina damage if you're going to do nothing about the bullshit of disablers)

remove (or nerf) disablers (into line with tasers) because stamina damage is stuns on crack(we don't need ranged slowdowns nor do we need ranged variable/potentially endless length stuns)

make cablecuffs (not handcuffs) break when the mob is attacked too much

i won't deny stun and done is bullshit but actually fixing it will be tricky

lzimann wrote:

MisterPerson wrote:

Steelpoint wrote:My concern with walking will be how sluggish it feels, with the current move speed it feels slightly fluid, whereas when you walk you notice how you keep stopping and starting with each tile you move.

I tried to fix this and people complained that they proffered the jittery movement over smooth movement.

To be fair, the last "smooth" movemnet someone attempted ended up with an even bigger jittered movement.

Steelpoint wrote:Well the problem is more so you need someone to be actually willing to code the idea.

The only person was was willing wanted to go in a different direction than what is being proposed in this thread, so there's that.

Kor wrote:I'm not sure we can even move away from stuns at this point, since one guy being able to kill ten other people at once is the crutch that is holding up all our conversion modes in which security is outnumbered/our answer to bad scaling.

Lumbermancer wrote:

Nabski wrote:

CPTANT wrote:I already tried this:

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 70#p154970

Did it ever move past that thread?

I'm pretty sure it was tested on servers for at least a day.

beerobot wrote:paprika made a thing that made melee combat way more intuitive, where it would find the nearest mob in the range of your mouse direction and then target them.

I tested it with them a few times and it playe dreally nice

Xhuis wrote:If other people are on the fence about changing our combat system, I'd do it my damn self.

beerobot wrote:paprika made a thing that made melee combat way more intuitive, where it would find the nearest mob in the range of your mouse direction and then target them.

I tested it with them a few times and it playe dreally nice

Remie Richards wrote:

beerobot wrote:paprika made a thing that made melee combat way more intuitive, where it would find the nearest mob in the range of your mouse direction and then target them.

I tested it with them a few times and it playe dreally nice

Won't work, paprika's idea was just my PR (that was in turn MrPerson's Idea) that unearthed the Tactical Chairs meme.
people went ballistic (cos they're idiots)

Remie Richards wrote:

beerobot wrote:paprika made a thing that made melee combat way more intuitive, where it would find the nearest mob in the range of your mouse direction and then target them.

I tested it with them a few times and it playe dreally nice

Won't work, paprika's idea was just my PR (that was in turn MrPerson's Idea) that unearthed the Tactical Chairs meme.
people went ballistic (cos they're idiots)

MisterPerson wrote:

Remie Richards wrote:

beerobot wrote:paprika made a thing that made melee combat way more intuitive, where it would find the nearest mob in the range of your mouse direction and then target them.

I tested it with them a few times and it playe dreally nice

Won't work, paprika's idea was just my PR (that was in turn MrPerson's Idea) that unearthed the Tactical Chairs meme.
people went ballistic (cos they're idiots)

At this point I'm willing to try again.

I still giggle at tactical chairs btw, it's the best meme.

CPTANT wrote:While we are on the subject:

nerf handcuffs, they are a large part of the stun=dead mechanic.

cedarbridge wrote:

CPTANT wrote:While we are on the subject:

nerf handcuffs, they are a large part of the stun=dead mechanic.

How do you actually propose to do this without removing their function as hand cuffs?

IcePacks wrote:you guys

if you scroll on back to the post me and steelpoint have been shilling you'd know that i also had a similar angle for stun+cuff killings

also can anyone in favor of a stamina-based damage system inform me of how stamina does anything but make the problem worse

IcePacks wrote:make it so that damage causes you to get up (and heals stamina damage if you're going to do nothing about the bullshit of disablers)

remove (or nerf) disablers (into line with tasers) because stamina damage is stuns on crack(we don't need ranged slowdowns nor do we need ranged variable/potentially endless length stuns)

make cablecuffs (not handcuffs) break when the mob is attacked too much

i won't deny stun and done is bullshit but actually fixing it will be tricky

IcePacks wrote: Slow is not fun. We already have people popping full-body hardsuits on and off just to move faster through our large station designs. Why would you make everyone slower as a result? The speed of the game is what makes combat with other players thrilling; two (or more) people running around trying to get an attack in on each other, with successive blows slowing each other down. The part that seems to bother people the most is when this comes to an abrupt end when one player just stuns the other and beats them to death. What would slowing everyone down do to change that, besides making the encounters less intense?

Armor is fine There was a round where I was a nuke op. I purchased the spesnatz pyro kit, and then proceeded to try and attack the crew exclusively from space. I spent forever in a pissing match with the AI while my team was slaughtered, losing literally all of my weapons in the process. As the crew was escaping, I ran to escape in combat mode and saxxed around trying to disarm people. I managed to kill one guy with his shotgun and willingly stood in place to trade shotgun shots with crewmen because I knew I had better armor. I lasted for an extremely long time, finally succumbing to a taser shot, although I was unable to really kill anybody since most of the shotguns I acquired from disarming were empty. I was a nuke operative surrounded by about twenty crewmen with extremely powerful armor. It still took them awhile to kill me.

There's already a solid divide between armor classes; regular armor protects you in an okay-ish manner and buys you some time in trouble and allows you to maintain speed. Riot armor makes you extremely resistant to brute damage but slows you down significantly. Bulletproof and reflective vests give you protection against two different types of projectiles. These are already well-defined classes of armor, you should leave them as they are and focus on the actual problem here: stuns.

Most importantly, stamina sucks. Stamina is an addition to the stun system. Just about everything about stamina is annoying -- it's indistinguishable from health damage, it slows you to the point where you're a sitting duck, and it adds a stunning component to attacks that include damage, making stun done even worse. When you finally get up from a reasonably lengthy stun, you're still painfully slow, making most efforts to resist whatever your attacker has in mind futile.

Disablers make this even worse. Hybrid tasers can fire a whopping 20 disabler shots; at two shots the target is slowed down to the point where there's very little that they can do, both in terms of escape and fighting back. A third shot stuns them, and you can continually shoot them with whatever remains in your unnecessarily large ammo capacity to keep them stunned with very little fear of running out, unlike tasers. Since damage stacks with stamina damage, you will remain stunned up until your demise if your attacker decides to just beat you to death. Finally, couple this with a long range and the ability to shoot through glass (which there is an abundance of) and you have an utterly broken stunning tool. Disablers pretty clearly demonstrate everything that's wrong with stamina, why would you want to outright replace regular stuns with stamina stuns, which make getting attacked even more deadly and more stun-y?

I strongly urge we go with my idea, for the following reasons:

There should be a second chance if you're being killed. When you're stunned, that's usually it if someone wants to kill you, doubly so if you're restrained since you can't move. If a target begins taking damage when stunned, the damage should reduce the time that they're stunned. This would creative a divide between stuns and lethality, since simply stunning and handcuffing them would cause you to wait for the whole stun. A divide between stuns and lethality should be our ultimate goal, here.

Make non-security methods of restraint even less powerful. If someone decides to try and murder you, a really easy way to do this is to just knock you over, ziptie you, drag you off, and kill you. What I propose is that we give zipties a durability limit. When you take enough damage, your binds break, again creating a divide from stuns and lethality and preventing you from being helpless when restrained. For now I think we should keep the limit on zipties and cable restraints and keep it off of (or increase the limit on) handcuffs, which are harder to obtain and break out of.

Damage should heal stamina damage. Damage stun chains with stamina are the most obnoxious shit ever. They make an already annoying mechanic that much more deadly. What I propose is that we remove the stacking and reverse it so that just unloading a few disablers and switching to lasers doesn't kill a guy instantly. Preserving the divide, et cetera.

Also, space can stunlock you to your death if you take stamina damage. True facts!

Nerf those fucking disablers. I'll let you figure this one out. I honestly think we should just remove them, but that's just me.

Steelpoint wrote:Stamina damage was a mistake, born out of a heated conflict during a unchanged feature proposal that was never finished properly. I'm half certain stamina damage is still bugged with projectile weapons.

The common theme I'm getting here is this.

• Remove Disablers and Disable settings from all weapons.
• Any stun weapon, Taser or Baton, do not stack or reset stun time when applied after someone is already stunned.
• Taking damage will cancel the effect of stuns. Likely it'll be a damage threshold so being accidently hit by a pen won't get you up.
• Nerf non-security related method of restraing. Such as making cable cuffs break when damage is taken to the victim.
• MAYBE buff some lethal ranged weapons to deal more damage???
• Movement speeds remain the same

This seems to want to aim to create a system where stun weapons are for capturing and restraining people, whereas if you want to kill someone your better off sticking to your energy guns lethal setting.

oranges wrote:basically you either accept security lethally detains people who run, or you accept less lethal stuns