/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

Yeah i don't think i ever got an assistant to follow any orders that they didn't want to do in the first place.

Arete wrote:

Cipher3 wrote:Why not just

The Game wrote:You are the Assistant.
As the Assistant you answer directly to absolutely everyone. Special circumstances may change this.

Enforce things that already exist?

The wiki says pretty much the opposite of that.

Because the wiki is an opinionated source on how things currently are. The in-game message is how things were intended to be.

Cipher3 wrote:

Arete wrote:

Cipher3 wrote:Why not just

The Game wrote:You are the Assistant.
As the Assistant you answer directly to absolutely everyone. Special circumstances may change this.

Enforce things that already exist?

The wiki says pretty much the opposite of that.

Because the wiki is an opinionated source on how things currently are. The in-game message is how things were intended to be.

If people really are this dumb and don't realize how things AREN'T supposed to really in the game be and take the wiki 100% literally and seriously, we can edit all the humor out of every page. This page especially was one of those pages which you know is true, but know it shouldn't be true, and would find humor in it because it's horrible but it's true.

But that's only obvious because we aren't new. To a newbie there's no indication that Assistants are supposed to assist... at all. Sarcasm doesn't carry that well over text.

The article's mostly fine (though the antag part is laughably naive) but it ought to at least mention how things ought to be.

Cipher3 wrote: Because the wiki is an opinionated source on how things currently are. The in-game message is how things were intended to be.

This, the wiki is by no means a dedicated source of information on how to play, but I think it should be rewritten since it was written in a time of even more hip to be grey.

wouldn't it be awesome if there was a thread dedicated to wiki improvement

oh wait

http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=550

it'd be even more awesome if anyone could edit a wiki oh wait

Cipher3 wrote:Why not just

The Game wrote:You are the Assistant.
As the Assistant you answer directly to absolutely everyone. Special circumstances may change this.

Enforce things that already exist?

>implying the whole Assistant issue doesn't stem largely from Admins who cover everything but OOC and only the most extreme cases of griff in 'IC, not my problem'

We need an integrated system in this case, not periphery rules and obligations that are regularly ignored by admins who don't give a shit/are multitasking and afk.

tunderchief wrote:

Cipher3 wrote:Why not just

The Game wrote:You are the Assistant.
As the Assistant you answer directly to absolutely everyone. Special circumstances may change this.

Enforce things that already exist?

>implying the whole Assistant issue doesn't stem largely from Admins who cover everything but OOC and only the most extreme cases of griff in 'IC, not my problem'

We need an integrated system in this case, not periphery rules and obligations that are regularly ignored by admins who don't give a shit/are multitasking and afk.

The enforcement wouldn't be OOC though. It would be IC. As in, this assistant is not doing their job (that's a phrase that feels odd to type), arrest them.

Cipher3 wrote:The enforcement wouldn't be OOC though. It would be IC. As in, this assistant is not doing their job (that's a phrase that feels odd to type), arrest them.

People who consistently do other jobs badly get job banned.

I play a lot of assistant, and the only reason is RNG. Why should I be punished simply for not being picked for one of the five jobs I felt like playing?

That's one problem.

Another is you fail to realize how integral assistants are to the station. Without a great number of what are essentially civilians, the station would feel empty at all times. The halls would always be quiet and this would ruin a lot of what little RP we have left. No bar brawls, no maint forts, no odd little projects, and less for security to do for the first twenty minutes.

Assistants create far more enjoyment than they detract and should remain as they are: The lowest class in a hierarchy that despises but needs them.

The only reason I can see for this change is either bitterly punishing them for greytide (Which won't stop it) or so 'Us real players get more antag' which is a selfish reason to make a harmful change.

Stickymayhem wrote:less for security to do for the first twenty minutes

Can we stop using this as a reason to not fix things?
People raise this point like people play security because they enjoy running from one end of the station to the other catching people stabbing eachother's eyes out with screwdrivers, despite the fact that our security population is at an all time low.

"HA HA HA BUT WE NEED SHITTERS ITS THE ONLY REASON ANYONE PLAYS SECURITY"

Even if it's true, even if the only reason people currently play security is because they like cracking random greyshirt skulls for being shit, it's like you either completely forgot why people used to play security and why we used to have a lot more security players.

It's both a bad reason to keep things the way they are and a bad reason to want to play security.

I'd rather listen to the ten or twenty so regular sec players we used to have and ask them why they stopped playing then listen to the five or so people we still have for why they keep doing it.
Can you believe once upon a time we used to have a full sec force running around? People used to actually be able to hang out in the sec break room eating donuts, drink coffees, and watch the cameras?

The most interaction I have with people in the brig, outside of stuffing them into cells, is having random people walk up and ask me for security gear because nobody else is here to use it.

An0n3 wrote:

Stickymayhem wrote:less for security to do for the first twenty minutes

Can we stop using this as a reason to not fix things?
People raise this point like people play security because they enjoy running from one end of the station to the other catching people stabbing eachother's eyes out with screwdrivers, despite the fact that our security population is at an all time low.

"HA HA HA BUT WE NEED SHITTERS ITS THE ONLY REASON ANYONE PLAYS SECURITY"

Even if it's true, even if the only reason people currently play security is because they like cracking random greyshirt skulls for being shit, it's like you either completely forgot why people used to play security and why we used to have a lot more security players.

It's both a bad reason to keep things the way they are and a bad reason to want to play security.

I'd rather listen to the ten or twenty so regular sec players we used to have and ask them why they stopped playing then listen to the five or so people we still have for why they keep doing it.
Can you believe once upon a time we used to have a full sec force running around? People used to actually be able to hang out in the sec break room eating donuts, drink coffees, and watch the cameras?

The most interaction I have with people in the brig, outside of stuffing them into cells, is having random people walk up and ask me for security gear because nobody else is here to use it.

As far as this goes, I'm still an advocate for being a bit less strict on security. I remember playing HoS and getting bwoinked for putting an assistant in a cell for more than 10 minutes when he committed numerous crimes and killed someone in 'self defense' when they were in their department.

I've done the tide, I've done security, and I gotta say its' a lot more gratifying to be greytide than security. You do more, can stick it to the man, and at the end of the day you can be the hero everyone appreciates or hates. If you're security then you have to deal with whatever awful late term abortion thinks he's funny by invading medbay, getting ahelped a dozen times a round for so much as flashing your egun on lethal to scare people away from rioting at the brig, and argue with lawyers/warden/other 'cool' security members as to what laws this person broke by forcefeeding people anti-tox and unstable mutagen laced donuts.

Now we've come to an odd point where security is denied any chance of being antag and their antithesis is free to roam the station and fuck shit up. Despite the fact that the alert level is blue and IC that allows random searches, people still cry metagame when security so much as looks at them funny. The entire point I imagined that we still had the alert level set to blue at round start was to start the game off on a good level of reasonable suspicion and to give security the go ahead to start cracking down on possible antag behavior.

So I don't think assistants should have reduced antag status, but the real problem is that they're allowed and almost entitled to be total shitlers. Security doesn't want to deal with them, every department getting stolen from doesn't want to deal with them, and the HoP, Captain, and CMO most certainly don't want to deal with them. Open up more job slots, stop cracking down on security for 'metagaming' when doing things like securing the armory and randomly searching people in the hallways is justified by Blue Alert, hold assistants accountable IC and OOC for not doing their job (just like an engineer that fucks off to the derelict every round instead of setting up the engine is jobbanned), and if someone can't be useful being an assistant or ANY other job, and they manage to get jobbanned from EVERYTHING, then let them be banned.

It's even worse when someone's being legitimately helpful as an assistant or at least nonharmful and they get lumped in as a greytide.

Stickymayhem wrote:The halls would always be quiet and this would ruin a lot of what little RP we have left. No bar brawls, no maint forts, no odd little projects, and less for security to do for the first twenty minutes.

Assistants create far more enjoyment than they detract and should remain as they are: The lowest class in a hierarchy that despises but needs them.

I know this small, constant chaos on the station has a certain charm to it, it would be perfect if it was minor and contained but it's just getting out of hand.

Today I woke up to see what's going on on Sybil... I saw 16 assistants online, there were many many other jobs available and only 2 security officers + HoS + warden online. I'm fairly sure I'm not the only one who's thinking "I'd like to be a sec officer and be useful... but not with 16 assistants". I know shit is going down and I don't wanna be part of it. It's extremely probable that it's not going to be fun as security officer.

Raven776 wrote:I've done the tide, I've done security, and I gotta say its' a lot more gratifying to be greytide than security. You do more, can stick it to the man, and at the end of the day you can be the hero everyone appreciates or hates. If you're security then you have to deal with whatever awful late term abortion thinks he's funny by invading medbay...

The problem is right here. It's not complicated; it's simply too much fun to be an assistant when compared to any other job. Removing fun of course sounds horrible, but if we're looking to balance the game, I see only two options: make every other job as fun as assistant; which would be an unrealistic amount of work for developers and coders, or bring assistant down a notch to balance it out with the rest of the game.

Assistants don't have a job. The admins are trying to cut back on greytiding, but they can't be everywhere. The idea of reducing/removing antag assistants is to punish those shitlers who greytide rather than actually assist.

Other jobs being funner is a great idea but probably something for another thread. Hint: If you make one, identify what makes job x unfun rather than "well it'd be cool if".

kosmos wrote: 'm fairly sure I'm not the only one who's thinking "I'd like to be a sec officer and be useful... but not with 16 assistants". I know shit is going down and I don't wanna be part of it. It's extremely probable that it's not going to be fun as security officer.

I'm pretty sure most people's stance is "I don't want to be security, fuck that shit," and is independent of the number of station assistants.

Hard to say since the assistant number is always high.

"Yeah I think I am not playing security today."-Me

Antimattercarp wrote:

ss13 greyplauge.png

"Yeah I think I am not playing security today."-Me

Fucking THIS.


It doesn't matter if one in every four assistants is actually a decent player some of the time. Greytide is every round now. Greytide is ruining the game. We can pick up the pieces later, but for now it NEEDS to be dealt with, and the only people defending it are those who partake in the greytide and don't want the party to end.

This poll is rigged. Poll question does not directly correspond with the poll answers. Regardless why should any job have less of a chance of being traitor? Its already completely shit that security can't be antag anymore. Just remove antags already. Extended for everyone!

Phalanx300 wrote:This poll is rigged. Poll question does not directly correspond with the poll answers. Regardless why should any job have less of a chance of being traitor? Its already completely shit that security can't be antag anymore. Just remove antags already. Extended for everyone!

Obvious strawman is obvious...

Poll is fine if people read the option they choose. I think the question used to be worded poorly, though. It's hardly fucking "rigged" but maybe should be restarted with different wording.

The poll means jack shit, but there's been plenty of arguments for reducing antag status. Go read the thread before asking "why". It's been answered many times.

And there are arguments for why it's a shitty solution that will just cause more problems. Worse problems.

We can all agree this is a hot topic, and the division is clear. Yet it seems that when it comes to policy and major changes, all roads lead to Rome nowhere.

(We can do the Rome thing too, though. That'd be great.)

Scott wrote:And there are arguments for why it's a shitty solution that will just cause more problems. Worse problems.

But that's the thing, there aren't many arguments as to why the proposed solution is shitty. The only pro-greyshit arguments have been debunked multiple times, whereas there are multiple good arguments in favor of limiting the antag status of Assistants.

1.'muh meta', or 'B-but then everyone will know that Assistants aren't antags!'

The whole idea is to draw the experienced people who want antag roles away from greytiding as Assistants, as they are flagrantly abusing a job without expectations designed to acclimate new players to the game and server culture. If a type of metaknowledge develops wherein department players realize that since an assistant cannot be an antag, he is in all likelihood a curious newbie who is sincere about wanting to learn more about being an Engineer/Doctor/Roboticist, and isn't just trying to get you to open the door so he can steal shit/assault you/start ransacking your lab like in the current meta, they will be more likely to teach that person the ropes of a given real job, and propagate a solid training system so we aren't drowning in people who don't know how to equip internals or pull objects, like we are now. Also, Antagproofing did great for Sec, and made it much more playable than it was before. The main issue making Sec unenjoyable is joining the game to see 10-20 Assistant slots taken up, and very few of anything else.



2.'LEAVE MY FUN ALONE'

If your sole argument is that antagproofing Assistants will damage your playing experience, you are part of the problem. You are choosing, in a role playing game based around complex, in-depth jobs of all shapes and sizes, to pick no job and fuck off into maint/steal things/grief the people who do the right thing and get a real job. You are playing the wrong game, and most certainly the wrong server, if you think that hijacking a job meant for beginners is an acceptable course of action. You want all of the benefits but none of the expectations. You don't deserve the same bonuses as those of us who play dedicated department jobs and make an effort to keep the station running. Assistant should be 'no risk, no reward', and you shitters have abused the role in it's current state so much that the community at large is tired of greytiding, so it will be soon.




3.'But some folks just prefer Assistant for harmless RP/helping the station with minor contributions/dicking around etc, and shouldn't be penalized for the actions of shitters.'

If this is true, and it isn't just self-aware shitters trying to protect the status quo, then these normal players make up quite a small percentage of Assistants compared to the tiders, and do not select Assistant for the Antag chance, but for what they see as playability and cooperation, and should have no problems whatsoever transferring to a department like Engineering or Medbay, using the same skills and RP abilities in a different jumpsuit.


Assistants were never an issue because players used to understand that the point of Assistant was to git gud and move on up the job ladder. We are now besieged by the SS13 equivalent of welfare NEETs, who refuse to take responsibility for themselves, and more often than not are raising hell by harassing departments and Sec, preventing those folks from doing their real jobs.


Are there exceptions? Sure there are. But it's either amputate the toe or lose the whole leg, at this point, and the only sensible option is to nerf Assistant, hope the good people move on and the shitlers change their ways or get banned, and wait for the quality of play to improve.

tunderchief wrote: But it's either amputate the toe or lose the whole leg, at this point.

More like amputate the whole leg because the toe looks iffy.

Antimattercarp wrote:

ss13 greyplauge.png

"Yeah I think I am not playing security today."-Me

To be fair, even if as many assistants as possible filled in the open positions, there'd still be 10 assistants with nowhere else to go. If we're going to make playing assistant less attractive to experienced players, it might be necessary to expand the station too if we don't want to drive some of those experienced players away.

tunderchief wrote:

Scott wrote:And there are arguments for why it's a shitty solution that will just cause more problems. Worse problems.

But that's the thing, there aren't many arguments as to why the proposed solution is shitty.

There are if you read the thread. People will just start taking job slots and not do their jobs. It's already a problem now, it will be even worse. And people getting assigned to assistant because the jobs they wanted were taken should not be penalized with even less fun.

tunderchief wrote:The only people defending it are those who partake in the greytide and don't want the party to end.

Citation very fucking much needed. I'm defending it. Am I one of those people? Name names or shut up.

tunderchief wrote:If this is true, and it isn't just self-aware shitters trying to protect the status quo, then these normal players make up quite a small percentage of Assistants compared to the tiders, and do not select Assistant for the Antag chance, but for what they see as playability and cooperation, and should have no problems whatsoever transferring to a department like Engineering or Medbay, using the same skills and RP abilities in a different jumpsuit.

I play Assistant when I can't be trusted not to have to fuck off because of work and/or my connection, or if I just want to have fun and relax. Engineering requires you to be always on to fix the station. Medbay requires you to be always on to heal patients. Why do you want people to become shit engineers or doctors, when they can take a role that doesn't require them to do anything?

tunderchief wrote:Assistants were never an issue because players used to understand that the point of Assistant was to git gud and move on up the job ladder.

Funny, I remember the term "graytiding" being coined because Assistants used to be very much a fucking issue. But sure, blame it on the mythical new shit players.

A little after I added priority-based job selection, there was a bug in it. I'm pretty sure it was the result of someone else's changes, but that's all waaaay in the past now.
... Jeezum crow, that was back in September 2011 or so. Wow.

Anyway regardless of blame, the bug was making people be assistant when it shouldn't have been. For a few days it was common for most of the station to be assistants. These groups of unwilling assistants naturally looked for fun, in massive tides. Hence the term.

Sadly, certain people found this unexpected lack of responsibility liberating. The issue was rapidly patched (I don't feel like checking by who) but the phenomenon was already self-sustaining. And that's why everything's shit now!

Anyway enough storytime, people should play the goddamn roles instead of shitting around in hobo mode. Nobody cares if you do a shit job as long as you make some token effort. And the job selection system exists so that if you don't like a job, you can set it to "low". Setting all but a handful of jobs to "never" is abusing the system. It's admitting to an utter lack of creativity and/or interest in the game's social framework.

Just allow engineer! The engine will get set up, you can watch if you want, and then you can fuck off and do whatever - but with coworkers and a leader. Vital social framework.

Also applies to librarian, clown, mime, botanist, chef, bartender, cargo tech, medical doctor, janitor. Doing a token amount of working and interacting with coworkers takes like 5 minutes tops, then you're free to do whatever the fuck it is you're so eager to do instead. You've probably even interacted with people, which will be useful if your secret plan involves other players in any way.

I know what it's like to not want to commit to a 1-2 hour session (except it's more like 30 minutes now I guess?). That's why I play fucking botanist! If work needs me or the round goes long, bam, braindead. Nobody cares. That pretty much applies to any roles except antags, heads, and sec.

I bet a few weeks of removing the assistant would fix this stupid runaway phenomenon, just like a couple days spawned it.

Stickymayhem wrote:

tunderchief wrote: But it's either amputate the toe or lose the whole leg, at this point.

More like amputate the whole leg because the toe looks iffy.

Hold your horses right here.

Can you people stop implying that antag status is all there is to the game? If you do that, you're part of the problem we're trying to solve here.

Reducing antag chances in no fucking way changes regular experience as the job. Please stop saying otherwise. Anyone who plays assistant to build/roleplay/be nice is in no way damaged. This basically eliminates arguments 2 and 3 of tunderchief's post. Number 1 is eliminated by reducing chances instead of eliminating them.

Scott wrote:People will just start taking job slots and not do their jobs.

Then people will get jobbanned (ways to track it are already coded) and enjoy their reduced antag status because they can't bother with setting up singuloth.

Scott wrote:And people getting assigned to assistant because the jobs they wanted were taken should not be penalized with even less fun.

You have the option to pick a random job. Don't act like it's really shitty, I do this all the time. Take your pick, not playing jobs or antagonist status, because you don't deserve one if you don't do another.

bandit wrote:I play Assistant when I can't be trusted not to have to fuck off because of work and/or my connection, or if I just want to have fun and relax.

If that requires you to roll for antag, you are part of the problem.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:

Stickymayhem wrote:

tunderchief wrote: But it's either amputate the toe or lose the whole leg, at this point.

More like amputate the whole leg because the toe looks iffy.

Hold your horses right here.

Can you people stop implying that antag status is all there is to the game? If you do that, you're part of the problem we're trying to solve here.

Reducing antag chances in no fucking way changes regular experience as the job. Please stop saying otherwise. Anyone who plays assistant to build/roleplay/be nice is in no way damaged. This basically eliminates arguments 2 and 3 of tunderchief's post. Number 1 is eliminated by reducing chances instead of eliminating them.

Scott wrote:People will just start taking job slots and not do their jobs.

Then people will get jobbanned (ways to track it are already coded) and enjoy their reduced antag status because they can't bother with setting up singuloth.

Scott wrote:And people getting assigned to assistant because the jobs they wanted were taken should not be penalized with even less fun.

You have the option to pick a random job. Don't act like it's really shitty, I do this all the time. Take your pick, not playing jobs or antagonist status, because you don't deserve one if you don't do another.

bandit wrote:I play Assistant when I can't be trusted not to have to fuck off because of work and/or my connection, or if I just want to have fun and relax.

If that requires you to roll for antag, you are part of the problem.

Extended is considered the most boring round for most of the people. You want to make a extended round for a large part of the players this way. Stop making the game boring, please.

Extended is boring due to lack of antagonists, not because people don't get to play antagonists.

You can safely walk away now, because we all know how you think this game is only about antagonists.

If a round requires 14 traitors, 14 players will be made traitors even if they're all assistants. That will not change even if this idea goes through. The idea is just that ~7 non-assistant players will get first pick, then the last 7 slots can be anyone, including assistants and over 7 if less than 7 people were not made traitors in the last step (lots of jobbans, lots of people with traitor off, w/e). Sounds fair?

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:

Stickymayhem wrote:

tunderchief wrote: But it's either amputate the toe or lose the whole leg, at this point.

More like amputate the whole leg because the toe looks iffy.

Hold your horses right here.

Can you people stop implying that antag status is all there is to the game? If you do that, you're part of the problem we're trying to solve here.

Reducing antag chances in no fucking way changes regular experience as the job. Please stop saying otherwise. Anyone who plays assistant to build/roleplay/be nice is in no way damaged. This basically eliminates arguments 2 and 3 of tunderchief's post. Number 1 is eliminated by reducing chances instead of eliminating them.

Scott wrote:People will just start taking job slots and not do their jobs.

Then people will get jobbanned (ways to track it are already coded) and enjoy their reduced antag status because they can't bother with setting up singuloth.

Scott wrote:And people getting assigned to assistant because the jobs they wanted were taken should not be penalized with even less fun.

You have the option to pick a random job. Don't act like it's really shitty, I do this all the time. Take your pick, not playing jobs or antagonist status, because you don't deserve one if you don't do another.

bandit wrote:I play Assistant when I can't be trusted not to have to fuck off because of work and/or my connection, or if I just want to have fun and relax.

If that requires you to roll for antag, you are part of the problem.

Guess what, if I land on a job I am not feeling like playing at all, I'll just be a wasted slot for that job. I am not here to play what you want me to play, I am here to have fun.

Well then you'll get less chances of getting antag. I think it's perfectly fair.

You know, I feel like if this topic was named "increase antag chances for real jobs", the discussion would go in a different way. Even though it's really the same fucking thing. There is absolutely no difference at all. So stop your fucking "oh let's just remove antags extended sux blah blah blah coderbus nerfs".

There are exactly 54 jobs on station, of which only 9 cannot be antagonists (Sec+Cap), meaning there are 45 jobs by default that can be a antagonist. The average player's on the server ranges, according to the statistics page, from 27 people to 54 people (Bit of a outlier, tends to be around 45-48). This means there are usually enough player slots on the server to play that can be a antagonist before having to select an assistant.

I like MisterPerson's explanation of how such a system would work.

Also if you land a job you don't like? Tough luck, just go ask the HoP for a job change.

Final word, if someone gets around to making it that your antag chance is determined before your job position, then there are even further fewer reasons to disallow assistants having antag rights removed since everyone would have equal antag chance irrespective of their job.

But it doesn't matter if slots run out. Then assistants just get antag as usual.

Amelius wrote:Most of what I'm getting from this thread is in the complete opposite direction as I hoped, a shame really.

The solution is decidedly not to make assistants unappealing like most of you seem to think, but to make other roles more appealing and fun. Who, as a veteran player, wants to set up singuloth for the umpteenth time? How about doing research that you've done so many times you can do it from memory and effeciently, to the point where it's mind-numbingly boring to execute? How about setting up that cryomix and pumping out the normal bic, derm, and tric pills like some sort of mindless automoton? What about spending 20 minutes to (mostly) repair 60 seconds worth of damage, only to have the shuttle come less than a half hour later? Variety is the spice of life, yet many of /tg/s jobs have a dearth of available creativity, and rely on people doing the exact same robotic unfun things, over and over again, round-to-round, only so that other people can kill them is farcical at best. With no payoff, that is, antag status, and a high likelihood that your work will go down the drain early on, or you'll be murdered in the process, many people don't find it worth the trouble most of the time to play an active role in the round. That is the crux of the issue that everyone has averted their eyes from. Where is the goon-esque mechanic, providing room for much creativity and fun throughout the station? What about general exploration? How about real R&D where you research artifacts that have compositionally-generated effects? Aside from the pure roleplaying, helping folk, validhunting, and crafting construction projects that go perpetually unfinished, where is the fun in actually 'doing your job'?

As a direct result, many people choose a role with no such responsibilites, so that they can do what they want, if they want, whenever they want, roleplaying within the constraints of the rules. This is one of the biggest problems with a couple of the game modes as well, namely blob, monkey, and sometimes even wizard, whereupon the crew goes about doing the same actions without any variation or even strategy, or the round becomes extended 5 minutes in, in the case of the latter two. Simply put, in a word, - they're repetitive and tend to be boring. Of course, we're talking about Sybil here, so the rounds tend to be a lot faster paced, and not very roleplaying focused.

This isn't a problem that needs to be resolved by making assistant less desirable, all that would be doing is briefly quelling a symptom of a greater, structural problem. Squash this here for the sake of it, and cracks will appear elsewhere. Fix it at the root, or the next problem will be 'yellow tide', then 'white tide', ad infinitum until the changes are reverted. It's a tough problem to tackle, but this is a problem that will take a while to fix. It's not like the greytides are new, anyway, and there isn't and shouldn't be a major rush.

I agree with this.

Greytiding is already bannable. It can result in serverbans and jobban from assistant. I have banned people for it.

Regarding access, I think everyone should have access to maint. This would make sec more fun, assistants could no longer escape officers in 10 seconds either.
Doing all kinds of things and going around the station is the point of the game, and maint is a big part of that. When I get a job that cant go into maint its a major bummer.

An existing problem might be the common "identity" of assistants. A small psychological change could be randomizing the colour of their starting jumpsuit.

Scott wrote:

Stickymayhem wrote:

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:You've certainly got a point. However, there's a fundamental flaw in your logic.

Making all other jobs more fun and desirable will require immense amount of work. So much work, it's not realistically achievable.

So your solution is to deliberately make something else less fun?

Hey we removed the parapen, that definitely seems to be the philosophy here.

>pen
>fun

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Extended is boring due to lack of antagonists, not because people don't get to play antagonists.

You can safely walk away now, because we all know how you think this game is only about antagonists.

Not only about antagonists, but they are the major part of it. At the moment we are light-RP, and I dont think a shift would begin here.
If you kill part of the fun, it wont create more fun elsewhere.

Steelpoint wrote: Also if you land a job you don't like? Tough luck, just go ask the HoP for a job change.

HoPs are unreliable, I dont think we should make them more central than they are now.
Earlier I had an idea, heads could have a box of IDs in their locker, similar to prisoner IDs in the brig, for example IDs that say "Assistant Engineer #01" or something similar, that they can hand out (maybe with a stamped paper so they can prove that it is legit).

Is there not a box of space IDs on the bridge? All heads of staff have access to the ID Console and can hand out access they have.

Now that I think about it, I wonder if HoS's can hand out maint access?

leibniz wrote:Regarding access, I think everyone should have access to maint. This would make sec more fun, assistants could no longer escape officers in 10 seconds either.
Doing all kinds of things and going around the station is the point of the game, and maint is a big part of that. When I get a job that cant go into maint its a major bummer.

Then maint just becomes another hallway, only without lights, cameras, or pretty floor.

leibniz wrote:Not only about antagonists, but they are the major part of it. At the moment we are light-RP, and I dont think a shift would begin here.
If you kill part of the fun, it wont create more fun elsewhere.

How does shifting antags to people who actually contribute something to the round kill part of the fun?

Lo6a4evskiy wrote: How does shifting antags to people who actually contribute something to the round kill part of the fun?

Don't be an idiot. All players can contribute or not to the round, regardless of job.

Scott wrote:

Lo6a4evskiy wrote: How does shifting antags to people who actually contribute something to the round kill part of the fun?

Don't be an idiot. All players can contribute or not to the round, regardless of job.

That does not answer the question, under this suggestion only Assistants would lose their antag rights meaning more contributing crew members would be selected to be a antag.

Meh, misread who said something

Steelpoint wrote:

Scott wrote:

Lo6a4evskiy wrote: How does shifting antags to people who actually contribute something to the round kill part of the fun?

Don't be an idiot. All players can contribute or not to the round, regardless of job.

That does not answer the question, under this suggestion only Assistants would lose their antag rights meaning more contributing crew members would be selected to be a antag.

All players can contribute or not to the round regardless of their job.

Before editing your post...

While all rolls can contribute to the round, however Assistants are not obligated to contribute to the round in a meaningful way. Hence the very nature of the Assistant.

By your logic, an assistant made antag is now useful and contributes to the round, so removing assistant antag or reducing the chance for assistants to get antag is against what you desire.

Unless you're full of shit, of course.

An Assistant Antag is essentially a Assistant that can legally grey tide.

Anyway, all you did was further reinforce the point that Assistants contribute very little to the round and that their main call to arms is their chance of being selected for antag status.

The proposed system simply shifts the antag rolls away from assistants and gives it to non-assistants. Assistants would get antag status if all eligible rolls are filled.

Scott wrote:All players can contribute or not to the round regardless of their job.

Scott wrote:can

Bingo.

Regardless, the question is not about this at all and you're just attacking the wording. Good luck with that.

So, how does this suggestion kill part of fun?

A lot of experienced players don't want to get real jobs because it's tedious as fuck and annoying, because most of the time you'll be surrounded by a fuckton of incompetent players, and worse, you'll be relying on them. I used to like playing as a medical doctor, but then it was more and more annoying to not have chemist make a proper cryo mix, to have people dragging the players out of your hands into cryo when they can be healed in the sleeper, into sleeper when they need cryo, using ointments and bruise packs for 5 damage, geneticists being idiots and not knowing how to clone people, etc, etc.

I found my niche by playing silicons, but their slots are very limited, and I often end up as an assistant. So you are saying that I should never be allowed to get a human antagonist role?

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:

bandit wrote:I play Assistant when I can't be trusted not to have to fuck off because of work and/or my connection, or if I just want to have fun and relax.

If that requires you to roll for antag, you are part of the problem.

What problem? The problem I see people mentioning is graytiding. Nowhere does this make me part of that problem. Or do you mean the problem of other people's playstyle being compromised? If I disconnect in the middle of setting up the singularity or being a security officer or the AI, that's bad news for everyone else. (A few rounds ago I was lagging like fuck as AI, and it ended up making the captain think I was rogue and bad stuff happen.) If I disconnect in the middle of antagging, then it really only screws me over.

Or do you mean the problem of wanting to actually have fun and put real life first? If so, fuck you.

I know what it's like to not want to commit to a 1-2 hour session (except it's more like 30 minutes now I guess?). That's why I play fucking botanist! If work needs me or the round goes long, bam, braindead. Nobody cares.

I play botanist a lot, but the problem is botany gets old too. The chef will ask for ingredients maybe one-third of the time, and even then it's usually just wheat and shit. After that there are only so many times you can grow grass or walking mushrooms or 100-potency bananas before that gets old too. And botany is a job where if you go braindead for about 5 minutes or so all your work is undone.

bandit wrote:If I disconnect in the middle of setting up the singularity or being a security officer or the AI, that's bad news for everyone else. (A few rounds ago I was lagging like fuck as AI, and it ended up making the captain think I was rogue and bad stuff happen.) If I disconnect in the middle of antagging, then it really only screws me over.

Okay, can you clarify this part please? I really didn't get it. Are you saying that you cannot play anything but assistant because you can disconnect or what?