/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

This is the correct place for discussing a certain topic: but that does not mean that it is the right place to find people who agree with you.

LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:23 pm 5. I don't think they'll be discouraged by people not liking a map, or mappers "catching flak" (you wanna see flak, look at the replies to this very post, which are 90% ragebait attention whoring with nothing even remotely worth acknowledging, hence my abrasive response upon seeing what I thought was more of the same from a Head Admin of all people) so much as they'll be discouraged by people talking up how much of a herculean task it is to create a map, which I don't doubt, for the record. In fact, considered mapping, myself, at one point, until I saw aeons of testimony basically saying "It's suffering, don't do it".

I feel the need to zoom in on this point specifically, because I worry this is a common sentiment amongst the community and I really, really need to talk about it. Full soapbox moment, sure, but this is important.

As my fellow maintainers have previously noted, making a map takes a lot of time, effort and patience (my own project recently celebrated its 3 year anniversary, and it's still not even remotely close to full completion), and notably, fighting against an upstream current to even get your work accepted, both by the codebase and then afterwards by the community. You note yourself that you were discouraged from even trying to work on mapping because "it's suffering"- perhaps you should ask yourself where such a perception comes from? Because in my experience as the head honcho for maps here, a large part of people not wanting to work on mapping is because they see how our community responds to new projects- they're ripped to shreds unless they are absolutely perfect, and that attitude has borne us almost complete stagnation in terms of mapping. To bring up my own project again, I'm terrified every time I go to write a new update, or even when I think about its eventual release, because I have seen how maps get treated. I've seen the response to tramstation, and kilostation, and donutstation, and everything going back before that. I've seen the graveyard we've left behind by continually removing our maps because they don't get the same response as the old guard stations (ironically, even metastation was disliked at launch, despite having much the same layout until 2019-ish- guess it took a while for people to come round). I've seen the vitriol, the roundstart mass suicides, the active sabotage attempts. I've also been on the receiving end of some of it myself for stuff I've worked on, although I've fortunately dodged the worst of it.

This stagnation has made us, ironically, one of the worst codebases for mapping talent, not in terms of quality, but of manpower. We presently have a tiny mapping team, less than 10 people by a charitable estimate and less than 5 who I would call the sort to take on large projects like making a full station map. We get less contributions in this area of development than even our smallest, most niche downstreams. In 4 years, we've had 2 new map projects make it to completion, and about 3 attempts made that I would describe as having made it over the initial hurdle of "mapping is hard" that everyone goes through. For reference, Skyrat has had about the same in 1 year, and it has a smaller overall developer count by a fair margin. For the number of monthly contributions TG gets, that's a pitiful quantity, and if we're seen to be not only a tough place for mappers in terms of community response and development environment (which I really must talk about more publically at some point), but also in being unwilling to stand up for our contributors and their work, then we're going to find ourselves even deeper in the shit.

Basically, to answer this, and sum it up, I'll back up what's been said previously- I won't be removing tramstation unless I see a replacement worthy of the job. As callous as it may seem, I feel the need to advocate for my mappers, even where that may run contrary to community feedback, because I need them to know that their work is going to be protected, especially after I've already signed it off. I understand that you're having technical issues with tramstation, but a removal is a last resort if those can't be fixed.

san7890 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 3:08 am This is the correct place for discussing a certain topic: but that does not mean that it is the right place to find people who agree with you.

My intention was never to have an echochamber, sir, it was to see people discussing the performance of tram on the whole, get a wide range of perspectives. Not have dead memes and attention whores shoved down my throat while one or two people
A, completely miss the point and just say "I like tram" (which is a fine position to hold, but adds nothing to the discussion)
B, actually give me some insight, see posts like your own or that of TheFinalPotato, or this recent one by EOBgames.

Some good points made here that make me see the matter differently. I was also on the remove tram train (no pun intended).

That said there are some very problematic issues with the design that just make it hard to enjoy. For instance when a tiny part of the map is spaced, it feels like the entire station gets spaced. I don't know how or why, but it only happens on Tram, and others have noticed it too. The last time it happened I couldn't even see where the spaced section was. When the power fails, also, the tram stops working, which makes the whole map incredibly tedious to traverse.

Power failure is too common of an occurrence to make the main intended mode of transit on a station unusable, and the atmospherics flow for whatever reason makes Tram liable to getting spaced. EVA is on the very left side of the station, on most it's in the center. All of these things in combination make the map quite unfun when anything goes wrong (and things going wrong is supposed to be what makes SS13 fun).

Trams pipe net is horrid. Refilling areas sucks without a pump sucks. And also the power net sucks

I believe some are making a huge deal about something that is not clear at all. If you can’t run tram on your PC, how about you get a better one or, even better, protest for performance changes to tram rather than out right removal? Tram is cool. It presents a gimmick, and I think most other maps should have one. But I also think the power net and atmosphere pipes is a bit messed up, but it’s not a mess. Show the issues to maptainers, show how it can be improved, and let actual work on the map be done.

Have people who hate the map? Ask them /what/ is wrong with it. Get a better understanding of what can be improved instead of imagining a mess that needs to be removed. I’m sure map makers and developers, who spend hours after hours on working with on maps , would take the time to make tram even *better*, than just throwing away tram as a whole.

Just a opinion.

Im fine with everything on tram except the tram itself.

It's a stupid gimmick that makes getting around the map an annoying hassle and has no real purpose.

If the tram were an optional way to quickly travel longer distances that would be fine. However, the map ended up being designed specifically so that you have to use the tram to move around or get run over by it unless someone goes through the effort of opening the side passages. It was basically designed knowing no one would use the tram if they didn't have to because it's annoying.

It has crossing lights now. Just don't cross when they're blinking red. Or do you often get hit by cars on the street?

SkeletalElite wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:12 am Im fine with everything on tram except the tram itself.

It's a stupid gimmick that makes getting around the map an annoying hassle and has no real purpose.

If the tram were an optional way to quickly travel longer distances that would be fine. However, the map ended up being designed specifically so that you have to use the tram to move around or get run over by it unless someone goes through the effort of opening the side passages. It was basically designed knowing no one would use the tram if they didn't have to because it's annoying.

Be careful what you wish for.

Tram is cool, but they need to ditch the chemistry gimmick on the map.

The underpass is a cool area. I like the genpop gimmick on the map. The only thing that kind of sucks is the whole southwest section. Besides the fact that it gets reworked every week, no one can ever find the library, or the chapel.

I have said this before and I will say it again - We could go back to having nothing but Meta and people would still want it removed.

If it wasn't Tram, it'd be Delta or Kilo or IceBox.

As far as actual criticism on Tram, some of the areas are kind of annoying to get around, but the tram itself has never been a problem for me unless the power goes out or some cunt breaks it.

The tram is fine it just feels pointless and has no real purpose because it goes a short distance. It was a good step forward when it was made faster than just walking, but it still goes too short of a distance. After the time spent waiting for the tram, then walking in and clicking the computer and clicking send, and finally waiting for the doors to open once you get there, it ends up taking the same amount of time as just walking there. I still think it needs to have a bigger distance to make it worth it.

im just saying if i one day snap and make the tram tunnel twice as long the fault will lie on all of you

Reminder that this thread wasn't made for actual tram feedback, but as a non-serious removal petition to test the waters and see the consensus for who else wanted tram removed because of the lag it generated.

And on that topic, I have an old toaster that I haven't been able to upgrade for some time and it runs perfectly fine.

MMMiracles wrote: ↑Thu Nov 10, 2022 11:01 pm im just saying if i one day snap and make the tram tunnel twice as long the fault will lie on all of you

I don't see how this would be bad. What's more, I think I recall listing it as a bullet point in one thread as one of the things I personally wanted to see implemented, just like swapping Bridge/sec with Service, which was done long ago (thanks for that btw)

I think making it faster to send the tram would be better than making it longer which could cause people to get upset. However it would require some coding because some sort of bug is making the computer slow to use.

Nah we need a Black Mesa tour in space.

A different station using the tram tech for a loop would be nice. Each department is a section and gets its own stop. Square or rectangle shaped loop. Maybe two different trams on parallel tracks.

... then again could the same tram travel on a new axis? Like it goes east to west, but also north to south? Hmmm.

san7890 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:10 pm

LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:01 pm

san7890 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 5:49 pmNo. Sorry :/

Is there a single member of staff who won't pointlessly throw snark at me for the crime of trying to gauge interest in the removal of a map? We get it, you're untouchable, you needn't flaunt it in the most senselessly dickish way possible. You can, but it isn't necessary.

Do you understand how many man-hours over how many years have gone into the creation of a map? I would be shocked if it was less than a thousand man-hours collectively. The first iterations of Tram were being made in August 2017! (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12729) This doesn't even include the amount of coding that had to go into making the Tram (and then making the Tram better). Do you understand just how much effort was put in by talented people to keep the map at a steady state? Do you understand just how harmful it is to this content creators to keep demanding the removal of a map because you just don't like it? What you see as "snark" is absolutely nothing compared to the level of noxious thought being propagated here.

this has enlightened me to realize "wow, i should not advocate for the removal of a map that had passion & love put into it" like i realyl should have realized way earlier
i still have issues with the map but this mellows my dislike of tram by a good amount

We should put a tram on Metastation.‮‮‮‮‮

Just to give people a rough idea of the ordeal with extending the tunnel: This is the amount of shifting required to expand each tunnel segment by 6 tiles, to a total of 36 tiles between each platform. Any further out and this starts putting the map concerningly close to the z-level edge on the segments like the bomb testing site. This is a more difficult feat now that maintenance itself is comprised of multiple modules instead of being static and requires additional work to fill in new gaps so it doesn't feel as empty.

Is it doable? Sure. But it isn't an easy project.

I know this is a meme thread but I felt obligated to give people an idea the kind of work that goes into a request as simple as 'just make the tunnel longer'. I'll still probably end up doing it anyway because it gives me an excuse to do some other stuff I've been putting off.

saprasam wrote: ↑Fri Nov 11, 2022 9:20 am -snip-

this has enlightened me to realize "wow, i should not advocate for the removal of a map that had passion & love put into it" like i realyl should have realized way earlier
i still have issues with the map but this mellows my dislike of tram by a good amount

It’s not your fault for not knowing this earlier to be completely fair, most people just don’t engage with coding/mapping/spriting to understand just how much of a labor-of-love some projects are… and creating a Full-Station Map from nothing is genuinely the most work-intensive thing in the field of mapping.

It’s both a blessing and a curse that our mappers are as engrained in the overall community as they are. Blessing in that they can solicit genuine feedback / helpful constructive criticism (it’s okay to criticize if you aren’t being insufferable to talk to), the curse part occurs is when your work (as well as the work that several other people have put in to take the map off the ground, Tram is notable in this aspect) is taken for granted.

I’m glad you’re now aware of it, at least. Maps don’t come out of the aether to irritate you, they’re made by people who want to explore and flesh out the boundaries of their artform and make something impressive.

People might say they hate tram but in reality a world without tram is a world not worth living in

TheSmallBlue wrote: ↑Fri Nov 11, 2022 9:24 pm People might say they hate tram but in reality a world without tram is a world not worth living in

The bigger problem is, in that world there would be no tram to jump in front of

Personally, I just want rock the vote removed.

Tram more like Tramendously good