Fixing the lack of depth: Medical

[Remie Richards]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Code: Select all

//TODO
//specific steps for some surgeries (fluff text)
//R&D researching new surgeries (especially for non-humans)
//more interesting failure options
//randomised complications //Remie note: this is basically the "dynamic events" that cedar wants.
//more surgeries!
//add a probability modifier for the state of the surgeon- health, twitching, etc. blindness, god forbid.
//helper for converting a zone_sel.selecting to body part (for damage) //Remie note: this is done, no idea why the comment still exists.

[FantasticFwoosh]

But can you see what i mean, "OH SO RANDOM, WE NEED A PLASMA CUTTER SCAPEL LEVEL TWO FROM SCIENCE TO DEAL WITH THIS PROBLEM OR THEY WILL SURELY DIE" doesn't actually address the problem.

Most of the other stuff i can get behind such as expansion of surgery types (never hurt as long as its not just a upgrade to existing types), some failure conditions as to direct intervention (you slip and cut a artery etc, this is why the clown never should do surgery with clumsyness)

[Remie Richards]

Nowhere does it say you need advanced tools, you have the reading comprehension of a dead potato.
The todo says "researchable surgeries", which you've completely misinterpreted.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Nowhere does it say you need advanced tools, you have the reading comprehension of a dead potato.
The todo says "researchable surgeries", which you've completely misinterpreted.

It might be that its written down too open ended because there's no concrete ideas behind what you're treating literally. Its just a dev goal and not at all relevant to the current state of affairs of medbay working for changes we can make today which is what we are actively discussing in this thread (#1). Little wonder i might have misinterpreted it.

Can you honestly answer how you are going to deliver the knowledge of surgeries (because it implies that unless there's a individual progression tree in which people must practice and waste time doing a job people in medical don't interact with for atleast 1 every 5 rounds) from science to medical, it ceases to be relevant and creates a lot of contrivance in bothering research for even more things to act on random circumstances that can also occur in surgery.

- Downloads the data chip "I know surgery-fu" (Surgery can be done anywhere with a sheet and tools, therefore without carrying it with the person you have to assign that knowledge to the player's ckey, which then creates exclusivity who can do a op)

- We can't treat your heart artery blockage because nobody is manning R&D to deliver us our medical data cards.

(#1) - It might be better placed in the coding thread or in its own suggestion thread rather than hiking on the back of this one.

[Remie Richards]

A:"Add more depth to medical"
B:"Here are the current dev goals for more depth"
A:"Oh those aren't relevant get out of the thread"

What??

[Haevacht]

A:"Add more depth to medical"
B:"Here are the current dev goals for more depth"
A:"Oh those aren't relevant get out of the thread"

What??

It's fwoosh, you expect anything they ever say to make sense?

I do like the surgeon modifiers being a thing. And potentially more antagonistic option for surgery would always be nice, such as rendering a limb useless without amptuation, so the AI may confuse them for a fully functioning mob when they have the abilities of a dead potato.

[FantasticFwoosh]

I mean i would be more convinced with a conceptual WIP PR or github milestone project, there's no idea backing on how to actually implement those other than just the idea (I respect the flawed idea but to actually say how its going to be done is considerably more helpful)

> Dwarf fortress level of "Yeah there's going to be flying bears, When asked about it in dev Q&A "Yeah we don't know we'll get to it on our timescale schedule or maybe drop it later, yeah."

If its really that big of a thing and you come up with a basis of how to actually constructively put it together then i mean there's no reason to spat about this further and everyone can have a level conversation about its flaws & good points.

- People currently have suggested things we can just swap out & change, this is kind of ethereal and baseless even if its a contributive idea.

I don't mean to patronise or antagonise you deliberately Remie, im just saying you could come forward with something a bit more concrete so its just a decision of talking it out and "when to merge" if its approved. I didn't say i hate all of it, just that i dislike certain parts of a idea that has no concrete basis of execution in the game.

[Remie Richards]

Dude, I've said I'd make it, I said I have an implementation in my head already.
Not to be fucking Neo over here but I see the matrix, all those todo items are -trivial- less than 2 hours work, and that's if the developer of it is being lazy/runs into issues.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Share your thoughts how, then please if it is locked inside your cranium. Then i have nothing to argue about.

[Remie Richards]

How what?

[FantasticFwoosh]

... To implement research specifically, and or thoughts on surgeries/failures as your to do list dictates. etc. that you already have a implentation in mind of.

Ok moving on because (muh evasiveness to simple direct questions)

I'm wary of any medical overhaul that wants to just shove surgery in more things on account of how clunky and tedious surgery is to actually do. Artificially extending how much time each patient takes to treat isn't the best way to add more depth

Well that's kind of case by case really, in such a thing that *cough*cough* you had random events such as a burst artery to fix by first by clamping the bleeders in to halt the flow, then using a scalpel to fix the artery and cauterise that mid surgery, and then downloading "Surgery for dummies" guides via medial disk into the medical computer that let you commit to surgery fu with alternative surgery route using your R&D made abductor scalpel that also cauterises the wounds when it goes through to reduce the chance of accidents because success chance without sterilizine is terrible.

- Muuuuuuuch liiiiiikeee baystation's laaaaaser scaaaalllpeeelll, shhhh don't tell anybody.

Oh-shit they bled to death while the surgery was going on and are dead. Oh well, lets sling them in the cloner because death & old bodies doesn't matter anyway and they'll get a fresh new & fully intact body. Basically mercy killing at the surgery table with bad tools & conduct just heals them in a roundabout way.

[cedarbridge]

Code: Select all

//TODO
//specific steps for some surgeries (fluff text)
//R&D researching new surgeries (especially for non-humans)
//more interesting failure options
//randomised complications //Remie note: this is basically the "dynamic events" that cedar wants.
//more surgeries!
//add a probability modifier for the state of the surgeon- health, twitching, etc. blindness, god forbid.
//helper for converting a zone_sel.selecting to body part (for damage) //Remie note: this is done, no idea why the comment still exists.

Yeah, I'm going to take a test stab at it over spring break next week and see if I can't get something simple like an "oh no they're bleeding!" complication to work that requires gauze or something and move to more interesting things from there.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Thanks cedar. Lets just hope goof hasn't forgot.

[Screemonster]

See, when I read "research new surgeries", I didn't read it as "well the patient's come in and is gonna die because R&D didn't get biotech high enough this shift", I read it as things like cosmetic and elective surgeries like augments and the like.

At worst I read it as "if you break your leg then basic surgery can set it so the leg is usable at all but has penalties, but upgraded surgery can restore it to as if it were never broken".

[Remie Richards]

See, when I read "research new surgeries", I didn't read it as "well the patient's come in and is gonna die because R&D didn't get biotech high enough this shift", I read it as things like cosmetic and elective surgeries like augments and the like.

At worst I read it as "if you break your leg then basic surgery can set it so the leg is usable at all but has penalties, but upgraded surgery can restore it to as if it were never broken".

This.

Thanks cedar. Lets just hope goof hasn't forgot.

>5 year term maintainer offers to do feature
>Lol fuck you this idea is dumb
>Admin (no offence) offers to do feature
>Thank you thank you thank you ur my god

That's it, I've finally seen sense like most people: Ignore Fwoosh.

[FantasticFwoosh]

I mean they actually settled on what they wanted to do constructively rather than beat around the bush. You're wasting as much of our time as im wasting yours.

- I've told you my input (already raised my concerns, done and dusted) but i didn't like the lack of pragmatism going into actually saying what you were going to do. Cedar just off the bat said they were going to strive to add this & this involving a gauze as a practical step as a thing which is in game terms ok, in that they are making a condition to create bleeding and will probably be successful implementation without fuss unless the PR is done badly in which case it can be altered.

But inevitably screemonster, the top statement will lead into the lower worst case scenario statement if its true, you cannot do the said upgraded survey without the research.

[cedarbridge]

See, when I read "research new surgeries", I didn't read it as "well the patient's come in and is gonna die because R&D didn't get biotech high enough this shift", I read it as things like cosmetic and elective surgeries like augments and the like.

At worst I read it as "if you break your leg then basic surgery can set it so the leg is usable at all but has penalties, but upgraded surgery can restore it to as if it were never broken".

This.

I thought we more or less had this with researchable tiers of implants and eventual alien alloy surgical tools.

And yeah, its pretty amazing being praised for saying I'm going to take a bumble at the code when somebody who probably has a much better idea and shorter time table than mine also expressed interest.

[Wyzack]

will fwoosh ever learn to read?

[Gun Hog]

We can trust RemRem. If she says she can do it, she can do it, usually! I am concerned about making surgery harder when people (in my observations) rarely do it outside of brain removals and prosthetic replacements, though. Will this change make surgery more interesting and commonly done?

[oranges]

can we trust her though?

Really makes my almonds carbon activated.

[PKPenguin321]

add broken bones for limbs, they are effectively dismembered (cant use them) but aren't actually severed and can be temporarily fixed with a stint or something and fully repaired in medbay

[cedarbridge]

We can trust RemRem. If she says she can do it, she can do it, usually! I am concerned about making surgery harder when people (in my observations) rarely do it outside of brain removals and prosthetic replacements, though. Will this change make surgery more interesting and commonly done?

You make something more commonly done by either making it required more often, more beneficial to do, or more rewarding to do. Surgical complications falls into the last category for medstaff as you have done something that requires your specific skilled input and doing it correctly gets you that little shot of "I did it" and that's rewarding on its own.

What makes something more "interesting" depends on what the player is looking for. Dismemberment actually made debrainings easier but less interesting since its easier to just decap and tap a head. Making surgery more dynamic means that surprising things can happen that disrupt mere routine. Rote routine is boring most of the time. SS13 has always been a game about unknowns and incomplete information. Medical should be that way too. You should not always know exactly how a surgery will go and merely using the right tool should not always make surgery 100% perfect. The comments to surgery also mention something interesting. Why does a doctor that "winces" or "twitches" perform perfect surgery? In a lot of cases, spessmen are too perfect. And characters that are innately too good at things are boring. Dynamic events and complications also means we get to make surgery more difficult and require special knowledge without just crutching on RNG failure rates, which we have, but which are also out of players' hands past the point of gear prep. Being interesting in this case is also involved in the surgeon being an active participant in the healing and treating process instead of merely "the guy who clicks the tools in order."

add broken bones for limbs, they are effectively dismembered (cant use them) but aren't actually severed and can be temporarily fixed with a stint or something and fully repaired in medbay

I kinda like the idea of "if you try to run with a broken leg you scream and fall over."

[Remie Richards]

I've considered bones for a while.
Never actually did it as I didn't want to just shoehorn it in.

[Gun Hog]

Remember that roboticists are responsible for augmentation surgeries (and often limb replacements). The only medical tools available to them are medibots. It will be a problem if they cannot perform their duties without killing their patients.

[Remie Richards]

I would class surgery tools as medical tools, would you not?

[WarbossLincoln]

I like the sound of the changes.

Can we also add wheelchairs and the ability to start missing limbs? I got yelled at one time by an admin on either bay or paradise for being a legless sec officer who chased down autists in a wheelchair. Fuck me for having fun I guess. I think /tg/ would be more appropriate for that until some assistant dumps me out of the chair and steals my taser.

[cedarbridge]

Remember that roboticists are responsible for augmentation surgeries (and often limb replacements). The only medical tools available to them are medibots. It will be a problem if they cannot perform their duties without killing their patients.

Each operation is its own section of the code so each operation will have its own share of different possible complications tied to whatever it was you were doing at the time. Generally speaking, these complications will require tools generally available to the department that would be doing them. Its not outside reason to expect anyone performing surgery to find or have medical gauze on hand to stop sudden internal bleeding, for example. Otherwise, missed cuts can be cauterized, fat/skin encroaching on the work area can be move with a retractor, almost leaving something inside the patient that shouldn't be forgotten after the last step in surgery can be remedied with the hemostat, etc. These are all generic ideas, but none of them require specialist tools that a doctor or roboticist wouldn't already be expected to have access to.

[Gun Hog]

I would class surgery tools as medical tools, would you not?

Clarification: Non-surgery medical tools. Medical supplies. Patches, healing chemicals, etc.

@Cedarbridge: As long as what you state remains the case in practice, I am fine with it. Do note that Roboticists do not start with medical gauze.

[cedarbridge]

I would class surgery tools as medical tools, would you not?

Clarification: Non-surgery medical tools. Medical supplies. Patches, healing chemicals, etc.

@Cedarbridge: As long as what you state remains the case in practice, I am fine with it. Do note that Roboticists do not start with medical gauze.

Its readily and easily acquirable and next to no effort to add a small stack to robotics tool tables.

[Supermichael777]

>necro due to medbay still being terrible

more than puddle depth to healing would be nice. Might cut down of the valid hunt if getting cracked on the head with an oxy tank actually meant something.

[Anonmare]

I'd like some more depth as well. Cause there's nothing more that annoys me than a bunch of autists breaking down the emdbay window to grab a brute patch for the splinter on their pinky, and I'm the one in the wrong when I say:
"Hey could you not do that and use this perfectly serviceable sleeper instead?"
To which their reply is:
"REEEEEE YOU MIGHT MORPHINE ME REEEEEEE"


I think permanent injuries that require surgery would be the obvious step, mechanically they'd reduce a limb's max health and only surgery can restore it to what it was. To not fuck over solo traitors, I'd suggest giving them a purchasable medkit, not on the expensive side, that'd be able to restore a limb's functionality. Different limbs would be affected differently by the permanent injuries and have different levels of fucked up-ness.

• Head - Concussion. Random stumbling and a permenant confusion effect. As well as the short-sighted vision effect ( don't know what it's called) to show them as being hazy and unaware of their enviroment. At the highest level of damage, the patient starts randomly passing out every 30 seconds or so.
• Arms - Difficulty grasping. May take several attempts to pick up an objects, weakened melee/throwforce damage and throw range. Chance of dropping a weapon after it's fired with the injured arm. Chances of failure increase and melee damage lowered with damage level.
• Legs - Obviously slowdown. Progressively worse with each damage level. Two damaged legs has a chance of forcing a patient to randomly collapse (again increasing in chance with both leg's damage levels).
• Body - A damaged body leaves you weaker and more vulnerable to damage. Being hit in the chest has a higher chance of weakening. At the highest damage level: take 2x damage to anything that hits the chest.

Slowing down dragspeed as well would be a good idea. To compensate, give the medical the same thing a mediborg has that let's it fold up a roller bed into its inventory and give each roller bed an integrated IV stand, as well as giving medical vendors Saline IV drips for treating bloodloss rapidly.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Possibly mentally unstable greyshirt acts irrational causing greif to get a medkit because they are scared of morphine, in a minor crime that would be deserving of quick jab of morphine to calm them down, get them in the sleeper and thrown out already showing they didn't think it through and probably have a iq of 80

:THINKING:

You could probably achieve the same thing anomare (did i just call you nylons? I swear your avatars are so alike) by just having breakable organ parts on limbs that aren't straightforward to repair, like hands and feet. Get busted up and your hands broke & bent in any such way and unless you really really don't mind agonizingly setting it back into place on a long timer for a hit of brute damage that might finish you off without being stablised then i guess you need to see medbay.

Punching someone enough in the face to break their nose (det is immune to this as a feature or has a special nose band/splint or whatever) puts your voice slightly in italics. And then of course certain races & conditions (underformed clones etc) will mean that some ckeys won't have a nose, hands,feet in the first place and need amputation & replacements.

[Dr_bee]

You could probably achieve the same thing anomare (did i just call you nylons? I swear your avatars are so alike) by just having breakable organ parts on limbs that aren't straightforward to repair, like hands and feet. Get busted up and your hands broke & bent in any such way and unless you really really don't mind agonizingly setting it back into place on a long timer for a hit of brute damage that might finish you off without being stablised then i guess you need to see medbay.

Punching someone enough in the face to break their nose (det is immune to this as a feature or has a special nose band/splint or whatever) puts your voice slightly in italics. And then of course certain races & conditions (underformed clones etc) will mean that some ckeys won't have a nose, hands,feet in the first place and need amputation & replacements.

have damage to an area damage every organ in that area, or a random organ in that area. put organs in every part, give them HP that get depleated.. It would have side effect of making head damage STUPIDLY DEADLY like it should be. you take enough blows to the head you start having a harder time seeing and hearing, and get brain damage. heart and lung damage leads to blood regen lowering and oxygen damage respectively (we dont have livers so I guess the heart would work instead)

heal the organs via surgery or a chem, probably should make it rezadone, as it is already a super heal chem that is hard to make.

[Dax Dupont]

We just dial back the roundstart regen. It was a fairly recent change to allow roundstart chem dispensors to produce an almost instantly recharging amount of chems. They required stockparts upgrades like the sleepers do to reach full power potential (capacitors as I remember.) Just dial back the recharge rate to mean chemists have to strike a balance between doing their job properly and turning the chem locker into a meth den.

Please don't do this, chemistry is fine as is, if anything this will only lead to botanist tiding chemistry when you say no to their unstable mutagen refill and shit like that.

Aside from that:
While I like more in depth stuff, you'll probably need to tone back some damage dealing stuff as well since some things are balanced with OH ITS EASY TO FIX as well.

Also, this system sounds like medbay gets bombed or the only doctor gets murdered on low pop == round over though.
This is gonna lead to way shorter rounds I think.

Anyways, I'd like these changes as in the design document, but I'm conservative and I feel like a lot of test merging and playtesting is gonna be required.
If plenty of testing is done and it works I'll be more than happy with it.

Another thing, if this is implemented I would appreciate help with making guides to deal with injuries. Learning this solely ingame is probably gonna be extremely hard since of the chaotic nature medbay will become.

[Steelpoint]

I do think our medical system needs some depth to it, right now the best medbay is one where you either break into the backroom and loot bandages or the chemist shits out enough patches to make any medical issues a moot point. Either way it turns Medical Doctors into Assistants but with white uniforms.

I think if you strike a balance with medical so that professional Doctors who administer healing can quickly alleviate most injuries in short time. Yet if you attempt to heal yourself, or get healed by someone with sub-standard tools, that you still will be healed in the long term, but it'll take far longer to be healed.

The system does not need to be Bay level of if you get hit with a baton one too many times, and there's no Doctor around, then you get to sit in a corner with a collapsed lung for the rest of the round, but it can be a little more indepth than what we have now.

Our medical system does not even have the depth of a puddle, it has the depth of a drop of water. Because that drop of liquid will heal all your injuries and then some.

[Qbopper]

"Hey could you not do that and use this perfectly serviceable sleeper instead?"
To which their reply is:
"REEEEEE YOU MIGHT MORPHINE ME REEEEEEE"

you say that as if anyone breaking into medbay storage has any idea what a sleeper does or what it could possibly be used to harm them

seriously nothing angers me more than when the round is going fine and medbay is powered and some shit-for-brains smashes their way in and steals the supplies, and EVERY TIME THIS HAPPENS later in the round something goes down and I can't heal people in the field, especially when it comes to charcoal

FUCK

[Anonmare]

It's especially annoying if the chemists, for once, actually make you new medical supplies to restock the medkits and then more greytiders rush in and run off with the whole damn kit.

If I was an antagonist, I'd replace the medkit patches with poisoned ones every round.

Actually, I just had a thought, make it possible to dip a patch in containers so you can poison patches, like they soak up 5u of whatever you dip it in. That way, I can leave out decoy kits with morphine-soaked patches in them.

[Screemonster]

I'd just put one patch in every medkit that's entirely morphine and tell medical channel not to use the last patch in a kit

[Anonmare]

Yeah when you use the chem master to make medicine, it prompts you for a name and, by default, it gives you the name of the reagent in it and how much is in it (I.e. Bicardine (25u))

Patches have a 50u capacity and I think pills have a 40u capacity. Bottles are 30u.

Bear in mind, some medicines applied one way are poisonous or ineffective if not prescribed the way they're meant to. Synthflesh does nothing if ingested but instantly recovers it's Xu amount of brute/burn damage instantly.

[kevinz000]

Ew dumb necroers

[Anonmare]

Ew dumb necroers

Oh look it's SLOW Kevinz

[bman]

i like what i see

[bman]

also if you're gonna do this why dont you just import baymed

or take baymed then dumb it down cause you're too autistic to be a man and eat the pain

[Hikurac]

I'm wary of any medical overhaul that wants to just shove surgery in more things on account of how clunky and tedious surgery is to actually do. Artificially extending how much time each patient takes to treat isn't the best way to add more depth

While I'm all up for a more in-depth medical system, I'm afraid that it might just not be good for tg, given how fast our rounds usually go on higher pop. It'd just worsen the load the medbay would get in a crisis.

I wouldn't mind if more types of injuries required surgery, so long as the player themselves could perform some basic surgeries on themselves. I'm talking about very light stuff, more along the lines of limb replacement, rather than full on invasive surgery of course.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Pop your broken arm back in your socket etc, would be a very simple slow self-medicating action and of course if you have two broken arms you can't really do anything about it until someone else does it for you.

Its actually very rare that i see people using the embed menu to actually remove things, if broken arms/legs were added to this kind of category where you have to self inspect, click on the red text to initiate putting it back into place or with the appropriate area on the target doll, click on a "broken limb" status symbol at the top right of the screen to start fixing yourself it would generally work.