Fixing the lack of depth: Medical

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:34 am #268406

Bottom post of the previous page:

cedarbridge wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:I'll PR this tonight
Goof you promised!

life happens

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:42 am #268418

iamgoofball wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:I'll PR this tonight
Goof you promised!
life happens

Life is overrated

Post by **Armhulen** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:41 am #268431

Luke Cox wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:I'll PR this tonight
Goof you promised!
life happens
Life is overrated

Life is strange

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:38 am #268436

here's my concern

I spend 3-6 weeks focusing on this project because forum memelords demand it

I PR it

Everyone bitches during the test merge

It gets closed after a month of proposed changes

What feature does this sound like and why is it guncrafting?

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:58 am #268438

People were fine with the armory and weapon system before guncrafting. Medical is widely regarded as the most shallow and useless department (why do you think CMO is the least played head?) and people have been clamoring for a rework for ages. Unlike guncrafting, there is demand for this.

Post by **oranges** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:51 am #268442

goof knows in his heart what will happen

calzilla1 · Post by **calzilla1** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:55 pm #268490

Armhulen wrote:
Luke Cox wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:I'll PR this tonight
Goof you promised!
life happens
Life is overrated
Life is strange

Life is Tumblr

Lumbermancer · Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:12 pm

Luke Cox wrote:useless department.

It's the most used department on the station.

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:54 pm #268509

I have read the entire medical document. I am thinking it was written by a HRP server player or someone who likes medical shows. I fear everything may be too complex for our average players. Remember that a change to medical is a blanket balance change to all human involved combat. My biggest concern lies with surgery. I do not believe this is a well liked system for the tedium involved.

To support a system like this, the general lethality of the station may need to be reduced. I fear your document, if implemented as written, would bring us to a very low rate of survival, or a significant increase of being in a critical-like state. How long, on average, would it take for a patient who was spaced and brought into the medbay in crit to be healed? Space exposure does three types of damage (burn, brute, oxy), so would he need chems for brainloss (due to severe oxyloss), surgery for the brute, and need to be kept near a heater for the burns?

How fun will this new system be for the patients? How are you going to balance this such that the overall net change in "fun" (as "fun" is abstract, it cannot be objectively measured) is positive? Specifically, will your medical changes create enough "fun" for Medical Doctor and 'ghetto' doctor players to offset the loss in "fun" experienced by the players outside the medical department? Input from both Medical and Security players would be more important here as they are the most affected groups.

FantasticFwoosh · Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:59 pm

> Suggestive resolution - Fixing internal injuries via surgery as opposed to just spamming chemicals for critical condition wounds should be firstmost without blatently going all baymed on them with actually simulating injuries.

> Go into red critical damage = reduce all chem effectiveness by half making chems expensive to drink a lot of and slow recovery compared to getting fixed on surgery table. More about stabilising the damage you have rather than repairing yourself to full by chugging cocktails of different healing chems at critical/severe health.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:31 pm #268528

Gun Hog wrote:How fun will this new system be for the patients? How are you going to balance this such that the overall net change in "fun" (as "fun" is abstract, it cannot be objectively measured) is positive? Specifically, will your medical changes create enough "fun" for Medical Doctor and 'ghetto' doctor players to offset the loss in "fun" experienced by the players outside the medical department? Input from both Medical and Security players would be more important here as they are the most affected groups.

Roughly as much fun as dismemberment.

If you don't want to have to spend time being healed maybe you should also take precautions to avoid being injured. That doesn't mean you have to hide and avoid all human contact etc etc but it does mean that people will stop jumping naked into hull breaches. The rework as proposed does represent an uptick in lethality that we'll have to adjust other departments (viro) around but we've been living in a current med version that is painfully easy to avoid death while doing stupid things.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:35 pm #268530

Luke Cox wrote:People were fine with the chemistry and medical system before goofchem. Cargo is widely regarded as the most shallow and useless department (why do you think QM is the least played head?) and people have been clamoring for a rework for ages. Unlike goofchem, there is demand for this.

ShadowDimentio · Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:42 pm

Medical is rather boring, but making damage extremely annoying to heal with the high action expected on TG won't mesh well.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:44 pm #268536

ShadowDimentio wrote:Medical is rather boring, but making damage extremely annoying to heal with the high action expected on TG won't mesh well.

>medical is rather boring
>propose to make medical less boring
>but muh action combat simulator

You can either complain that medical is boring or propose a way to make it less boring. This, as proposed, does exactly that.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:58 pm #268570

cedarbridge wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:Medical is rather boring, but making damage extremely annoying to heal with the high action expected on TG won't mesh well.
>medical is rather boring
>propose to make medical less boring
>but muh action combat simulator

You can either complain that medical is boring or propose a way to make it less boring. This, as proposed, does exactly that.

That's the problem. They won't accept anything that changes the norm.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:07 pm #268580

iamgoofball wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:Medical is rather boring, but making damage extremely annoying to heal with the high action expected on TG won't mesh well.
>medical is rather boring
>propose to make medical less boring
>but muh action combat simulator

You can either complain that medical is boring or propose a way to make it less boring. This, as proposed, does exactly that.
That's the problem. They won't accept anything that changes the norm.

Its as was discussed though, this is a pretty needed change that's been a long time coming. Players are entirely too used to self-service, push button medical and it severely hurts game depth while robbing away design space.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:12 pm #268582

cedarbridge wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:Medical is rather boring, but making damage extremely annoying to heal with the high action expected on TG won't mesh well.
>medical is rather boring
>propose to make medical less boring
>but muh action combat simulator

You can either complain that medical is boring or propose a way to make it less boring. This, as proposed, does exactly that.
That's the problem. They won't accept anything that changes the norm.
Its as was discussed though, this is a pretty needed change that's been a long time coming. Players are entirely too used to self-service, push button medical and it severely hurts game depth while robbing away design space.

And I'm not wasting another 3 months of my spare time coding something because forum warriors bitched for it and then have those same forum warriors bitch about it existing get it closed. Maybe someday.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:27 pm #268590

If goof won't do the rework proposed in the doc I will (maybe, time dependent) learn SS13 coding (I have BYOND experience but never fucked with SS13) and try and do this

Once I finish what I'm working on now anyways

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:29 pm #268591

Qbopper wrote:If goof won't do the rework proposed in the doc I will (maybe, time dependent) learn SS13 coding (I have BYOND experience but never fucked with SS13) and try and do this

Once I finish what I'm working on now anyways

Don't waste your time, man.

The amount of coding needed for this is not a beginner's task. You have to rework the entirety of how damage works.

You'll just code it all and then admins will throw a shitfit because lol cant bandaid everything and the players will whine because autism is known to cause problems with accepting change.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:32 pm #268593

iamgoofball wrote:
Qbopper wrote:If goof won't do the rework proposed in the doc I will (maybe, time dependent) learn SS13 coding (I have BYOND experience but never fucked with SS13) and try and do this

Once I finish what I'm working on now anyways
Don't waste your time, man.

The amount of coding needed for this is not a beginner's task. You have to rework the entirety of how damage works.

You'll just code it all and then admins will throw a shitfit because lol cant bandaid everything and the players will whine because autism is known to cause problems with accepting change.

I'm well aware of the changes required, I never said it would be easy/I'd do it any time soon - I have programming experience beyond BYOND (heh) so I'm not some starry eyed noob believing I can redo an entire system in a day or two

also I literally just had to deal with a "coders don't listen to feedback" esque storm so I'm ot inclined to take that last point seriously/their point seriously at all

coders and players need to both remove their head from their asses when it comes to feedback, end of story, I won't comment further EDIT: obviously not everyone is like this but it's a major mentality problem I see on both ends

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:05 pm #268616

here's the thing

i spent 3 months trying to cope with feedback all while being told that my feedback listening wasn't wanted

i get muted in OOC for talking with players about my features because "its shilling"

i get punished for talking to players

i talk to the players the most out of all the coders

telling me i need to get my head out of my ass after being treated like shit for trying to do my job is fucking hillarious

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:14 pm #268626

I know I said I wouldn't comment further but the fact that you ignored the "and players" part is probably a good example of behaviour people find annoying

FantasticFwoosh · Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:31 pm

FantasticFwoosh wrote:> Suggestive resolution - Fixing internal injuries via surgery as opposed to just spamming chemicals for critical condition wounds should be firstmost without blatently going all baymed on them with actually simulating injuries.

> Go into red critical damage = reduce all chem effectiveness by half making chems expensive to drink a lot of and slow recovery compared to getting fixed on surgery table. More about stabilising the damage you have rather than repairing yourself to full by chugging cocktails of different healing chems at critical/severe health.

Selfquote, just to highlight and re-iterate if the design doc goes through, there's still a MASSIVE shortage of surgical work to be doing since robotics parts outclasses whatever natural organ harvesting we can do, and unless you are veering on removing organisms like alien larva, you may as well depower surgery because the RP & tense doctor = patient thing is gone and lost.

> We should steer away from robotic implants or add negative reprecussions to being augged or otherwise having a augg part forcefully merged onto your body

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:33 pm #268664

Gun Hog wrote:How fun will this new system be for the patients? How are you going to balance this such that the overall net change in "fun" (as "fun" is abstract, it cannot be objectively measured) is positive? Specifically, will your medical changes create enough "fun" for Medical Doctor and 'ghetto' doctor players to offset the loss in "fun" experienced by the players outside the medical department? Input from both Medical and Security players would be more important here as they are the most affected groups.

It's not supposed to be fun for the patient. Don't get hurt so you don't have to deal with treating injuries. The goal here is to make wounds have some real consequences.

cedarbridge · Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:38 pm

FantasticFwoosh wrote:
FantasticFwoosh wrote:> Suggestive resolution - Fixing internal injuries via surgery as opposed to just spamming chemicals for critical condition wounds should be firstmost without blatently going all baymed on them with actually simulating injuries.

> Go into red critical damage = reduce all chem effectiveness by half making chems expensive to drink a lot of and slow recovery compared to getting fixed on surgery table. More about stabilising the damage you have rather than repairing yourself to full by chugging cocktails of different healing chems at critical/severe health.
Selfquote, just to highlight and re-iterate if the design doc goes through, there's still a MASSIVE shortage of surgical work to be doing since robotics parts outclasses whatever natural organ harvesting we can do, and unless you are veering on removing organisms like alien larva, you may as well depower surgery because the RP & tense doctor = patient thing is gone and lost.

> We should steer away from robotic implants or add negative reprecussions to being augged or otherwise having a augg part forcefully merged onto your body

Robotics augs are already countered by the ready access to emp and ion weapons. I have no problem with keeping the current suite of robotics augs and maybe including other interesting utility augments later on. We need more Deus Ex memes tbh.

As far as surgical depth goes, even robotics aug surgery will be included in whatever random events other operations will incur. Its probably possible to make more complex or higher tier augs require more complex or difficult operations to implant without complications.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:48 pm #268707

I'm thinking that surgeries for more mundane wounds (deep cuts, broken bones, etc.) should be really simple, maybe 2-3 steps with each step having a high chance of success done off an operating table.

FantasticFwoosh · Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:05 pm

Luke Cox wrote:I'm thinking that surgeries for more mundane wounds (deep cuts, broken bones, etc.) should be really simple, maybe 2-3 steps with each step having a high chance of success done off an operating table.

Walking into bay territory of broken bones there, I've already mentioned a system where surgey would be standard for treating (if you've played CM server/bay you know its a absolute pain in the ass to walk around creaking with bones in a self destructive manner, and getting hurt from as much as a fly touching you)

> Sit inside sleeper forever because no 0 to full cryotubes anymore or someone dragged in bloody and barely kept alive by epipen has to be whisked into the surgery immediately or they will die = first a procedure to stop the internal bleeding, which will allow them to regain blood naturally (after a threshold of damage blood regen is cut off) and a second operation to fix internal damage (deal some direct healing & release the cap to recieve effective chemicals) allowing them to make a full recovery.

Shouldn't be as easy as slapping on a synthflesh pad to instantly bring them up to yellow health out of deep red. Adrenaline should also be extremely functional for keeping someone in the red functional if their normal ability is impaired on red internal damage.

Lumbermancer · Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:15 pm

I like CM model but it wouldn't work here.

FantasticFwoosh · Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:52 pm

But that's not CM model, CM model is just baymed with the broken bones. My surgical method would synergise with cryo statis & existing epi-pen stablisiation so they are atleast not dying immediately over you while you conduct non-specific (brute - internal damage, blood loss - internal bleeding, just two types) damage. If you got burnt then i guess you look like a cooked ham but can synthflesh it up like normal.

> By work here you mean there's so many meta-players that actually relying on a doctor to fix superheavy/critical damage efficiently is so culturally unacceptable as opposed to healing from 0 to full heath by stealing a entire medical first aid kit = FIRST AID KIT FOR SMALL/MEDIUM WOUNDS. The metaplayer alternative would be to shoot up with adrenaline/endraphine or miners salve so you can press on like nothing happened.

> Miners particularly it would be important since you are going to need some time out for your miner buddy to properly do some ghetto work on the mining pod if a goliath REALLY screws up your insides like a tin of spaghetti-o's.

Mark my words the metaplayers are going to fight medbay changes that feature convenience heal all or 'just dump to heal' to the very end. This medical change also nerfs antagonists like wizards from living forever off stolen medic kits & ointments.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:56 am #268849

FantasticFwoosh wrote:But that's not CM model, CM model is just baymed with the broken bones. My surgical method would synergise with cryo statis & existing epi-pen stablisiation so they are atleast not dying immediately over you while you conduct non-specific (brute - internal damage, blood loss - internal bleeding, just two types) damage. If you got burnt then i guess you look like a cooked ham but can synthflesh it up like normal.

> By work here you mean there's so many meta-players that actually relying on a doctor to fix superheavy/critical damage efficiently is so culturally unacceptable as opposed to healing from 0 to full heath by stealing a entire medical first aid kit = FIRST AID KIT FOR SMALL/MEDIUM WOUNDS. The metaplayer alternative would be to shoot up with adrenaline/endraphine or miners salve so you can press on like nothing happened.

> Miners particularly it would be important since you are going to need some time out for your miner buddy to properly do some ghetto work on the mining pod if a goliath REALLY screws up your insides like a tin of spaghetti-o's.

Mark my words the metaplayers are going to fight medbay changes that feature convenience heal all or 'just dump to heal' to the very end. This medical change also nerfs antagonists like wizards from living forever off stolen medic kits & ointments.

Wizards already have strong options for healing and such aggressive mobility/damage options that I don't think their inability to stay 100% with stolen medkits is going to be the turning point.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:22 am #268864

If this change does go through, we should look at making certain clothing items protect from certain injuries. Hardsuits should protect from deep cuts, for example.

onleavedontatme · Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:25 am

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/25190

I fixed medical

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:31 am #268870

Kor you absolute madman

FantasticFwoosh · Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:30 am

POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOINTS!

(I still think my medical lathe was a good idea for more domestic stuff like a supply of ointment and medical gauzes by consuming cloth, especially since this goes full autism throwing out syndicate medi-borgs and shit.)

Also what the fuck Kor, when i suggest points for security too which works in pretty much the identical format & abusability as this (literally just blueprint change the name of a healing room) with arresting criminals its branded as trash but this is just as bad.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:25 pm #269049

Kor wrote:https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/25190

I fixed medical

This is my fault

What the fuck have I done

Jesus christ

FantasticFwoosh · Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:27 pm

You can confortably retire now methinks, my security points thread was better.

Post by **oranges** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:30 am #271006

Is this going anywhere? the proposed document was suprisingly agreeable.

Remie Richards · Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:41 am

I'd like to try my hand at the dynamic surgery events thing.
Even have a first pass implementation in my head.

I'm a bit busy (MultiZ, Femsprites tool) but I'll get to it if nobody beats me (to it? or actually beats me? dun dun!)

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:07 pm #271026

oranges wrote:Is this going anywhere? the proposed document was suprisingly agreeable.

Goof said he wasn't interested in making it, but remies post has given me hope

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:36 pm #271097

oranges wrote:Is this going anywhere? the proposed document was suprisingly agreeable.

the doom and gloom "its just going to get reverted anyway" that you encouraged kinda killed the one volunteer we had for the overall project.

Post by **oranges** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:09 pm #271185

That's because goof is not good at making pr's, not a criticism of the system itself.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:19 am #271275

I don't think it's a good idea to have that mentality towards anyone, even goof

It doesn't help anyone improve and it doesn't address why "it'll get reverted anyways", it just makes people double down

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:33 am #271344

Remie Richards wrote:I'd like to try my hand at the dynamic surgery events thing.
Even have a first pass implementation in my head.

I'm a bit busy (MultiZ, Femsprites tool) but I'll get to it if nobody beats me (to it? or actually beats me? dun dun!)

I'm also going to take a look at this one. Literally only ever coded something once before (and didn't PR it) but conceptually this shouldn't be TOO hard.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:47 am #271351

Qbopper wrote:I don't think it's a good idea to have that mentality towards anyone, even goof

It doesn't help anyone improve and it doesn't address why "it'll get reverted anyways", it just makes people double down

Goof gets way more shit than he deserves imo. He makes an honest effort to make new, interesting content and he's always honest about his intentions. If a PR is shit, just close it and explain why.

Back on topic, it's great to see that so many coders are interested in this. In the future, we could look into making weaponless combat more stamina based rather than health based (i.e. you beat each other until someone gets knocked out), which would allow actual injuries to be much more severe

Remie Richards · Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:55 am

cedarbridge wrote:
Remie Richards wrote:I'd like to try my hand at the dynamic surgery events thing.
Even have a first pass implementation in my head.

I'm a bit busy (MultiZ, Femsprites tool) but I'll get to it if nobody beats me (to it? or actually beats me? dun dun!)
I'm also going to take a look at this one. Literally only ever coded something once before (and didn't PR it) but conceptually this shouldn't be TOO hard.

You ever used the surgery system?
It's fairly straight forward.

FantasticFwoosh · Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:05 am

Remie Richards wrote:
FantasticFwoosh wrote:But that's not CM model, CM model is just baymed with the broken bones. My surgical method would synergise with cryo statis & existing epi-pen stablisiation so they are atleast not dying immediately over you while you conduct non-specific (brute - internal damage, blood loss - internal bleeding, just two types) damage. If you got burnt then i guess you look like a cooked ham but can synthflesh it up like normal.

Snip ~ Talking about how medkits can heal your presumably only external wounds from 0 to full with enough medication spamming, as well as how 'convenient' it is just to pile chems into people so they metabolise and heal ALL internal & external injuries unrealistically.

Snip ~ Miners insides being reduced to goop from strong mob attacks, deliberately endorsing use of adrenaline to keep them moving

Snip ~ Wiznerds stealing medkits nerf here
You ever used the surgery system?
It's fairly straight forward.

Yes, too straight forward with the right tools and helpful intent to actually indent any kind of technical skill other than memory, the use of sterilizine to raise effective chance. Perhaps if surgery tools were made just slightly less reliable for clean surgery,if there were more kinds of injuries *COUGH*COUGH* fixing generic internal damage induced at mandatory red critical levels etc.

> I have suggested operations such as a lobotomy to deliberately cause damage to mandate the use of sterilizine in order to raise successive chances of causing little *additional & nonintentional* damage without totally murdering your patient on the table.

Remie Richards · Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:06 am

I'm talking about the code nitwit.

FantasticFwoosh · Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:10 am

I mean i was on topic, its quite literally the case that surgery success is 100% with proper tools.

Remie Richards · Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:11 am

Yes, so why do you think we're adding dynamic events to surgeries?
There's also a nice //todo in the surgery folder with some good ideas.

FantasticFwoosh · Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:16 am

Remie Richards wrote:Yes, so why do you think we're adding dynamic events to surgeries?
There's also a nice //todo in the surgery folder with some good ideas.

I dont see what dynamic events actually details at all, i was looking and talking about the actual thread title to being on content. A link to the DM would be helpful please for convenience and to show others what you're talking about. (i might have seen it but i was focusing on something else while cruising through there)

Oh the face of it blind to this 'to do list'

- Events to complicate surgery for fluff is a admission that there's nothing to do during surgery because its too straightfoward with the tools & incentive you are given, if you want to play frankenstien then thats the most imaginative use for it, but like my own bit of a suggestion we don't actually interact with surgery for actively fixing injuries.

- If it ain't broke but is kinda shit, make a event for it so people can be suprised and annoyed once every three rounds.

- If not handled well its going to make mortality rate of surgery higher, and even more unappealing to people.

Nvm got it here

A impressive but seemingly impractical list of stuff.

- Researching surgeries (you mean tools and or supporting machines right? Because there's nothing more annoying that guranteed death out of science incompetence)

- //randomised complications (I was correct, if handled badly this will be bullshit)

- //add a probability modifier for the state of the surgeon- health, twitching, etc. blindness, god forbid. (This is just failure chance/damage chance that can be negated by sterilizine, what the fuck)

I mean those are my biggest complaints that will be the most annoying to players for the sake of fluff and non-engagement with the rest of surgery.

Remie Richards · Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:22 am

Code: Select all

//TODO
//specific steps for some surgeries (fluff text)
//R&D researching new surgeries (especially for non-humans)
//more interesting failure options
//randomised complications //Remie note: this is basically the "dynamic events" that cedar wants.
//more surgeries!
//add a probability modifier for the state of the surgeon- health, twitching, etc. blindness, god forbid.
//helper for converting a zone_sel.selecting to body part (for damage) //Remie note: this is done, no idea why the comment still exists.