Soft Crit/Hard Crit

[onleavedontatme]

I would like it someone coded the following:

Critical condition is split into hard/soft crit

Soft crit would be from 0 to -30 health, hard crit from -30 to death


Soft crit:

Would prevent speaking in anything above a whisper

Prevent you from moving or using items

Would start the crit overlay/loss of vision

Would allow you to succumb

Hard crit:

Would render you unconcious

Cause you to take oxyloss every tick


Why: I think our rules and gameplay would benefit from a way to render people unable to fight (and still able to communicate) without it being indistinguishable from murder.

[Wyzack]

Sounds like a cool idea, and will allow me to give sad monologues as i die

please code

[ShadowDimentio]

Goon has the same thing and it's extremely annoying, you think you've shot someone dead and wander off only for them to whip out some meds, heal back and screech over comms.

I'd be okay with trying this if it forced you to be prone like having your legs cut off and move at that speed, you'd never be able to beat the guy that dunked you but there's the slightest chance you could crawl away to help.

[onleavedontatme]

I forgot to say that soft crit prevents you from moving or using items, whoops.

[ShadowDimentio]

I say let them move, but extremely slowly and you die faster.

[kevinz000]

Right before a feature freeze Mr kor.

[onleavedontatme]

Better hurry then

[PKPenguin321]

I like it except for the fact that somebody in soft crit never ever dies, feels like it would be used as a pseudo perma stun like N2O only easier to apply. Maybe make soft crit make you still slowly suffocate, but at a much much slower rate so it's still inherently harmful.

[Qbopper]

it means there might be less dumb ahelps over escalation so i like it

[Steelpoint]

Goon has the same thing and it's extremely annoying, you think you've shot someone dead and wander off only for them to whip out some meds, heal back and screech over comms.

I'd be okay with trying this if it forced you to be prone like having your legs cut off and move at that speed, you'd never be able to beat the guy that dunked you but there's the slightest chance you could crawl away to help.

Goon crit, last I checked, let you move around very, very slowly, but you would constantly fall down in pain and you could not speak. Also last I checked you could not use any items in your hands at all, let alone medical items. Though you can drag things behind you, letting you drag someone else to medbay, very slowly.

On topic, I don't see the point of this system. The health difference between soft and hard crit is so small that it seems near meaningless. It might be more useful if there is a larger gap between hard and soft crit.

[onleavedontatme]

I like it except for the fact that somebody in soft crit never ever dies, feels like it would be used as a pseudo perma stun like N2O only easier to apply. Maybe make soft crit make you still slowly suffocate, but at a much much slower rate so it's still inherently harmful.

Permastun is kind of the point.

But unlike n20 they can still hear/see/whisper/succumb

[Luke Cox]

This would make a lot more sense than literally beating someone into a coma in order to win a fight. +1

[PKPenguin321]

I like it except for the fact that somebody in soft crit never ever dies, feels like it would be used as a pseudo perma stun like N2O only easier to apply. Maybe make soft crit make you still slowly suffocate, but at a much much slower rate so it's still inherently harmful.

Permastun is kind of the point.

But unlike n20 they can still hear/see/whisper/succumb

but also unlike n2o you can apply it by sticking a baton or a welder onto somebody like 10~ times
i envision a permabrig that's just a locker with people at a perpetual 100 damage

[D&B]

Finally I can beat greytiders to a pulp

[imblyings]

3.png (24 KiB) Viewed 11702 times

[Luke Cox]

What if you slowly recovered from soft crit?

[Steelpoint]

What if you slowly recovered from soft crit?

[Gun Hog]

Perhaps we should make it continue to cause oxyloss, but with the stun intact. You should still die if something crits you, but you have nothing healing you or anyone helping you.

[Saegrimr]

Why: I think our rules and gameplay would benefit from a way to render people unable to fight (and still able to communicate) without it being indistinguishable from murder.

So how is this supposed to help if a "soft crit" still kills you eventually anyway? It's just the same thing but marginally slower.

Did anybody here even read the "why"?

[Shaps-cloud]

Because then you can tell the person you just softcritted to fuck off while taking them to medbay or dropping them on someone else to handle, very slow oxyloss would probably be preferable to getting softcritted in maint on a shocked door and spending the rest of the round locked there waiting for help since someone might come around the corner to save you the second you succumb

If you just leave them softcritted in a dark place no one would have found them anyway, that's still basically on the same level of being a dick as killing them or locking them in a room

[Saegrimr]

Because then you can tell the person you just softcritted to fuck off while taking them to medbay or dropping them on someone else to handle, very slow oxyloss would probably be preferable to getting softcritted in maint on a shocked door and spending the rest of the round locked there waiting for help since someone might come around the corner to save you the second you succumb

If you just leave them softcritted in a dark place no one would have found them anyway, that's still basically on the same level of being a dick as killing them or locking them in a room

So currently: Crit someone in maint, they die. This is bannable.
Proposed: Crit someone in maint, they die, a little slower. This is not bannable.
Just as bad but not proposed: Crit someone in maint, they don't die, but might as well be for how long they've been out. This is bannable.
Something everybody seems to be ignoring: Crit someone in maint, they slowly heal back just enough to limp to medbay eventually. This is bad and we can't have this?

I'm not following here.

[confused rock]

Why not just add pulling punches or stam damage to blunt weapons

[Wyzack]

In most situations where someone is in soft crit they will also be bleeding, and eventually bleed out.

I like the idea of not being able to use any items but being able to slowly crawl, maybe at the risk of bleeding a little faster

I dont think this is going to magically solve all our escalation problems but i do think it will help, and even if it doesn't it would still be cool to have

[Qbopper]

Being able to crawl very slowly would be cool

I think there would need to be some more thought put in before this idea reaches github but it's a promising concept imo

[onleavedontatme]

Because then you can tell the person you just softcritted to fuck off while taking them to medbay or dropping them on someone else to handle, very slow oxyloss would probably be preferable to getting softcritted in maint on a shocked door and spending the rest of the round locked there waiting for help since someone might come around the corner to save you the second you succumb

If you just leave them softcritted in a dark place no one would have found them anyway, that's still basically on the same level of being a dick as killing them or locking them in a room

So currently: Crit someone in maint, they die. This is bannable.
Proposed: Crit someone in maint, they die, a little slower. This is not bannable.
Just as bad but not proposed: Crit someone in maint, they don't die, but might as well be for how long they've been out. This is bannable.
Something everybody seems to be ignoring: Crit someone in maint, they slowly heal back just enough to limp to medbay eventually. This is bad and we can't have this?

I'm not following here.

Not sure who you are responding to, but in my OP the oxyloss doesn't kick in until hard crit. It's basically a permamute/permastun.

Obviously if you just left them like that forever where nobody could help them that'd still be treated as an OOC thing the same way welding someone into a maint closet with no radio is

[IcePacks]

crit is currently a slap on the wrist, though

[cedarbridge]

stam damage to blunt weapons

Because stamina as it currently exists is still kinda bad. Its functionally just a better stun that takes more than one hit to KD but just about never ends.

[Armhulen]

crit is currently a slap on the wrist, though

is this because death is a slap on the wrist

[cedarbridge]

crit is currently a slap on the wrist, though

is this because death is a slap on the wrist

More like because healing back from crit is stupidly easy.

[Armhulen]

crit is currently a slap on the wrist, though

is this because death is a slap on the wrist

More like because healing back from crit is stupidly easy.

Also true

[Shaps-cloud]

I've implemented a simple incapacitation feature that has its own separate threshold from full crit (incap being at 0 health and full crit being at -30 by default for now), and basically you're unable to move or interact with anything once you hit incapacitation, and are restricted to stuttered whispers. I'll be fleshing this out more after the feature freeze, since I really can't do much with it until that's done with

[Cobby]

I'm not a big fan of seemingly-indefinite stuns [IE straightjacket and/or n2o] that don't require the individual to monitor the user. If they did something to deserve forever rendering them unable to do anything, just kill them. If they didn't, why are you beating them until they're horizontal in the first place? I honestly can't think of a reason to permanently disable a character from doing anything, or think of a reason why that somehow makes for good gameplay.

Adding a super long almost indefinite stun is also kinda odd when I was under the impression the general consensus was we don't like stuns.

IDK I think i'd be more mad at someone leaving me in forever stun land instead of just killing me so I can work on syndicate tutorial island or something. I think it's really good the game forces one to say "you cannot wait anymore" so people can have fun in other ways [observing or playing a ghost role] rather than waiting for the rest of the round /hoping/ someone would find them.

I would be ok with a babycrit that slowly heals them to barely alive [assuming nothing else is wrong with them like bleeding] as Saeg proposed.

[Wyzack]

eh, i prefer slowly dying but can crawl slowly. That way it still has the similar consequences to death if left unchecked but prevents it being used to perma trap people

[Qbopper]

eh, i prefer slowly dying but can crawl slowly. That way it still has the similar consequences to death if left unchecked but prevents it being used to perma trap people

pretty much, just make it a way for there to be half a chance you can drag yourself into a hallway before properly passing out if the murderer ignores you

[Super Aggro Crag]

What about firm crit and liquid crit

[ShadowDimentio]

Betting knocked to crit and literally never dying unless you're bleeding or in a hostile environment is stupid.

[Nilons]

This sounds like a really good idea, because if someones on the ground bleeding it makes you need to get bandages on them, and would allow for more complicated care than slap him in the sleeper in future prs if they were deemed appropriate

[bandit]

I'm not a big fan of seemingly-indefinite stuns [IE straightjacket and/or n2o] that don't require the individual to monitor the user. If they did something to deserve forever rendering them unable to do anything, just kill them. If they didn't, why are you beating them until they're horizontal in the first place? I honestly can't think of a reason to permanently disable a character from doing anything, or think of a reason why that somehow makes for good gameplay.

Adding a super long almost indefinite stun is also kinda odd when I was under the impression the general consensus was we don't like stuns.

IDK I think i'd be more mad at someone leaving me in forever stun land instead of just killing me so I can work on syndicate tutorial island or something. I think it's really good the game forces one to say "you cannot wait anymore" so people can have fun in other ways [observing or playing a ghost role] rather than waiting for the rest of the round /hoping/ someone would find them.

I would be ok with a babycrit that slowly heals them to barely alive [assuming nothing else is wrong with them like bleeding] as Saeg proposed.

Not to emptyquote but I can't really improve on this.

[Armhulen]

I think if I'm going to execute them, a humane, non-ai-triggering way is n2o. It just feels nice, man.

[onleavedontatme]

IDK I think i'd be more mad at someone leaving me in forever stun land instead of just killing me

Just succumb then?

And yes the consensus is we dislike stuns, but we need a way for players to be able to disable one another without it being the equivalent of imminent murder that isn't stun prod + cablecuff instant death

[bandit]

Given that there is a widespread perception that succumbing means you cannot ahelp (which is stupid), the indefinite soft crit described here will only exacerbate the situation.

[onleavedontatme]

Given that there is a widespread perception that succumbing means you cannot ahelp (which is stupid), the indefinite soft crit described here will only exacerbate the situation.

We have timestamps on every attack and on succumbing, the difference between "guy succumbed after he was left in maint for 5 minutes" vs "guy succumbed in 5 seconds while the other person was calling security" should be apparent to any admin paying attention, the same as if someone had used cablecuffs to leave a guy without a radio for 5 minutes vs to take them to security

[Cobby]

Just succumb then?

But people don't just succumb, they would rather wait indefinitely because they hope to get back into the round with that same character.

It's why some people don't just ghost when they get N2O'd, straightjacket, or to a lesser degree Perma'd and it's why I hate the concept of an indefinite stun. It plays a really shitty mind game on someone just looking to meme on 2d spacemens without giving them any resolve.

we need a way for players to be able to disable one another without it being the equivalent of imminent murder that isn't stun prod + cablecuff instant death

How does softcrit, an INDEFINITE stun added to the game, fix any of that?

I'm unsure if this statement implies softcrit is suppose to be a way for people to avoid bans for critting in general, but I can tell you this won't fix any of that. admins will move the goal post in kind with this addition to the game.

IDK I just don't see how this adds anything of value to the game except people who want to knock the clown out for not wearing shoes without copping a ban because "it's softcrit so it's ok" [sorry robustin I had to take my jab]. It just doesn't seem like a very enjoyable feature or a fix to the supposed problems at any degree.

[Wyzack]

To all the people complaining about how it is an infinite stun, how is it any more of a stun than our current crit? All it does is give people more options for conflict that do not involve strict murder. All the doomsaying in the world is fucking pointless if we just give it a testmerge and see how it works

[Dr_bee]

Let people recover from soft crit then, or be able to move very slowly like on goonstation.

If putting someone in a long term slow with progressive damage doesnt end the threat you are better off killing them anyway.

[Cobby]

To all the people complaining about how it is an infinite stun, how is it any more of a stun than our current crit? All it does is give people more options for conflict that do not involve strict murder. All the doomsaying in the world is fucking pointless if we just give it a testmerge and see how it works

Current crit eventually kills you and says "ok you lost now, go play on tutorial island". This does not and leaves the individual to indefinitely hope to be saved as I've said several times already.

That's a huge difference.

[onleavedontatme]

How does softcrit, an INDEFINITE stun added to the game, fix any of that?

Because it takes something like 8-10 hits to down people with a regular weapon vs a stun prod which takes one. Either way is an indefinite disable but the reason people hate stuns is that it reaches that disable in one hit.

>n20/straightjacket

The difference is that if you ghost you can never be cloned. There is no such issue with succumbing from soft crit.

[Nilons]

make it so soft crit can crawl very slowly after 2 minutes, icly as they get used to their wounds and build resolve.

[Armhulen]

make it so soft crit can crawl very slowly after 2 minutes, icly as they get used to their wounds and build resolve.

make it so the hos is a complete badass and can start crawling immediately

[Cobby]

How does softcrit, an INDEFINITE stun added to the game, fix any of that?

Because it takes something like 8-10 hits to down people with a regular weapon vs a stun prod which takes one. Either way is an indefinite disable but the reason people hate stuns is that it reaches that disable in one hit.

>n20/straightjacket

The difference is that if you ghost you can never be cloned. There is no such issue with succumbing from soft crit.

While true, I don't think people stay there because they can't be cloned otherwise people would just ghost and go on ghost roles since those too do not get you cloned. It's just a mind game it plays on people, if you can see through that then great for you but I've seen several people who just sit there indefinitely and it's miserable.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree with the realization that you have more say, I just think stuns with no / very long resolves are not enjoyable and should not be in the game.