/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:15 pm**

So, a few weeks ago, a person broke precedent 5 of rule 2.
The result, a few kneejerk PRs were made to remove telescience entirely. The eventual ruling was to have this rarely used item commented out, pending a goofballing by goofball.
There are a few issues with this.
1, this is coderbus enforcing the rules, which was already enforced by the admins with a ban.
2, telescience is rarely used, due to it being a non-roundstart machine.
3, we can fix this issue a different way.
I propose that to stop people from fucking over ops, we make the nuke anchored to the shuttle floor at round-start. For ops that don't want to make a return trip after having grabbed the disk, we have the station nuke given a round-start code, which the ops are made aware of. (It can be the same as the op nuke, or it could be different, as long as the ops know both.)
With the ops given 2 protections against fuckery, we can bring back telescience, sans goofballing.
if not enough people are using the device, we can have a built-in telescience calculator orderable from cargo, or we can make the console accept either xy-coords, or offsets if you want to do a little math.

Posted: **Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:18 pm**

Tsci was trash.

Posted: **Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:20 pm**

Not an argument.
Also, wrong opinion.

Posted: **Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:21 pm**

very very very few people will want telescience back, don't dismiss people with "your opinion is wrong" (though D&B's post didn't exactly contribute much)

Posted: **Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:25 pm**

It was impossible to balance because it was basically a free get out of jail card that had zero effort besides getting the materials (which if you're science is zero effort because minerals will get brought by miners.)

It was not counterable unless you knew in advance TSCI was being built and even then you could not bust it down without good cause. It required no effort in game to seek or look at locations because there were third party calculators for it.

It was garbage, it still is garbage, and unless it gets reworked, it won't stop being garbage

Posted: **Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:30 pm**

>Zero counters

Move, either yourself or whatever they're targeting. Congratulations, you've defeated telesci.

Posted: **Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:37 pm**

I see the issue here.
You do not know what goofball plans to do to telescience.
"here's what I'm going to do

telesci can only transport people
telesci can only teleport to space ruin z-levels
space ruins get random "faint signal" style markers for use with telesci to flag down ruins
ruin budget increased
science gets buildable fulton setups for use to pull loot and stuff back to the station"
Quote directly from the GitHub.
This makes telescience ambulances impossible. (Which I made)
Balance did exist, which is why this situation of someone telescience-ing the nuke took over a few years since it's introduction to occur. You have to do rnd (which happens only in 40% of rounds) you also have to have miners bring back materials or get someone to do xenobio (mining has an 60% chance to get materials, xenobio has a 30% chance to get you the required slimes)
And then you needed someone who actually knew how to do telescience properly, and also knew how to build a machine/console.
And, because using the calculator takes time and then there's the delay of the telepad itself, anyone who keeps themselves mobile can avoid fuckery.
Besides, if it gets goofballed, then we have it for a month or two before it goes the way of the gateway.

Posted: **Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:55 pm**

I want telescience, too.

Posted: **Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:16 pm**

ShadowDimentio wrote:>Zero counters

Move, either yourself or whatever they're targeting. Congratulations, you've defeated telesci.

This. The secret to countering telesci was to move yourself or anything else exactly 1 tile in any direction. The AI never had an excuse because telesci is still a machine that requires a console and pad with power. Press one magic malf button to defeat telesci forever.

Posted: **Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:22 pm**

Telesci doesn't need exact coordinates to drop a proxy-bomb in your general location.

Pretty bad gameplay if the one main counter to people using it to kill/steal shit is "move all of the important shit 1-2 tiles in a random directly at round-start to counter tele-theft."

Posted: **Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:49 pm**

[youtube]FE6RuZuvjMs[/youtube]

Posted: **Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:30 am**

MMMiracles wrote:Telesci doesn't need exact coordinates to drop a proxy-bomb in your general location.

Pretty bad gameplay if the one main counter to people using it to kill/steal shit is "move all of the important shit 1-2 tiles in a random directly at round-start to counter tele-theft."

Also there's the armory where IIRC people have been bwoinked for hiding/locking up the guns round start.

Posted: **Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:33 am**

Let's see them space ruins.

Also, fultons in space?

Posted: **Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:36 am**

Jacough wrote:
MMMiracles wrote:Telesci doesn't need exact coordinates to drop a proxy-bomb in your general location.

Pretty bad gameplay if the one main counter to people using it to kill/steal shit is "move all of the important shit 1-2 tiles in a random directly at round-start to counter tele-theft."
Also there's the armory where IIRC people have been bwoinked for hiding/locking up the guns round start.

You can't reach the boxstation armory with telesci without super capacitors.

Posted: **Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:11 am**

D&B wrote:Tsci was trash.

Posted: **Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:29 am**

cedarbridge wrote:
Jacough wrote:
MMMiracles wrote:Telesci doesn't need exact coordinates to drop a proxy-bomb in your general location.

Pretty bad gameplay if the one main counter to people using it to kill/steal shit is "move all of the important shit 1-2 tiles in a random directly at round-start to counter tele-theft."
Also there's the armory where IIRC people have been bwoinked for hiding/locking up the guns round start.
You can't reach the boxstation armory with telesci without super capacitors.

Fair enough considering the research requirements I suppose. The idea Goof is taking that Christ cited sounds a lot better than just bringing Telesci back as is though.

christ110 wrote:I see the issue here.
You do not know what goofball plans to do to telescience.
"here's what I'm going to do

telesci can only transport people
telesci can only teleport to space ruin z-levels
space ruins get random "faint signal" style markers for use with telesci to flag down ruins
ruin budget increased
science gets buildable fulton setups for use to pull loot and stuff back to the station"
Quote directly from the GitHub.

Sounds like it'd give the space ruins some more love. Be good if it could teleport people from lavalands though as a means of quickly extracting wounded or dead miners. Something that could be added to go along with it could be a distress beacon for miners that they could buy with points. Simply slap it on a dead or dying miner (alternatively yourself if you've got time to do so before you bite the dust) and it'd send a message to science with the miner's coordinates so they could be teleported up and quickly dragged to cloning or medical

Posted: **Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:29 am**

to give space ruins some love, you don't have to nerf telescience to being unusable on the station. again, it still have purposes, like fighting against malf AIs, and whatnot.
giving science fulton beacons, and maybe even a reason to go to space ruins, like for the advancement of xenobio/rnd, is a fantastic idea. i just want it to be able to act like it used to. i like my telescience ambulance, its fun.

Posted: **Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:39 am**

It might work if it only works on people. That way even if you say, teleport into the armory to loot all the guns or the captain's office to steal his antique laser you still need a plan and appropriate gear to bust your way out instead of just being able to directly teleport everything to you. We might need some sort of jamming devices or something like that for say, the AI core. Otherwise people might just use it to teleport right next to the AI and kill it before its turrets can even activate.

Posted: **Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:26 am**

>when you have to agree with Repukan

why did you do that OP

Posted: **Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:38 am**

its easy to make you agree with a horrible person, when you are also horrible, and have poor opinions.
although, making it only teleport people and mechs (mechs should be able to be teleported) is an acceptable compromise.

Posted: **Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:08 am**

Eh, if nothing else I still really like the concept of using it to explore deep space ruins. Last time I played it seemed like lavalands was getting all the love when it came to exploration. Putting some more emphasis on exploring space ruins could be nice. Hell, it'd definitely be something I'd be interested in doing on the side as a miner if I manage to get my hands on a hardsuit or space suit or some shit. Be like Captain Kirk getting beamed down by Scotty or some shit

Posted: **Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:13 am**

christ110 wrote:its easy to make you agree with a horrible person, when you are also horrible, and have poor opinions.
although, making it only teleport people and mechs (mechs should be able to be teleported) is an acceptable compromise.

well now I"m gonna grudge you and my opinions hold more weight than yours. should have kept your tongue in your mouth

Posted: **Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:21 am**

oranges wrote:>when you have to agree with Repukan

why did you do that OP

<3

Posted: **Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:56 am**

oranges wrote:
christ110 wrote:its easy to make you agree with a horrible person, when you are also horrible, and have poor opinions.
although, making it only teleport people and mechs (mechs should be able to be teleported) is an acceptable compromise.
well now I"m gonna grudge you and my opinions hold more weight than yours. should have kept your tongue in your mouth

In case you didn't notice, me saying poor, or wrong opinion is a joke. Mainly because having an opinion be wrong, is by definition impossible. My apologies if it wasn't clear enough.
Regardless, can we get less coderbus trying to adminbus? This was a player issue, not a code issue, and could be solved in ways that didn't involve removing something from our already painfully shallow codebase. Besides, if it gets limited to ruins, then it's just going to be away missions 2.0

Posted: **Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:05 am**

ShadowDimentio wrote:>Zero counters

Move, either yourself or whatever they're targeting. Congratulations, you've defeated telesci.

Yeah and then you get bwoinked.

It's like saying "AI plasmaflood is counterable" but putting the counter in place gets you in shit.

Posted: **Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:36 am**

D&B wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:>Zero counters

Move, either yourself or whatever they're targeting. Congratulations, you've defeated telesci.
Yeah and then you get bwoinked.

It's like saying "AI plasmaflood is counterable" but putting the counter in place gets you in shit.

Apply the ai logic to telescience. If you're the warden, use the damn sec console for once, and check science, or walk over there, or listen to the radio about it. If you see a telepad, then go nuts, otherwise, your character has no reason to think it exists...

Posted: **Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:04 am**

christ110 wrote:
D&B wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:>Zero counters

Move, either yourself or whatever they're targeting. Congratulations, you've defeated telesci.
Yeah and then you get bwoinked.

It's like saying "AI plasmaflood is counterable" but putting the counter in place gets you in shit.
Apply the ai logic to telescience. If you're the warden, use the damn sec console for once, and check science, or walk over there, or listen to the radio about it. If you see a telepad, then go nuts, otherwise, your character has no reason to think it exists...

Unless you arrest then for building the teleporter itself which I'm pretty sure would be kind of a no no, you're probably not gonna know they're using it for no good until after they've started stealing shit with it or teleported a max cap bomb into the brig and by the time you get down there you're up against one or more assholes armed with every gun in the armory and probably an ablative vest to top it off.

Posted: **Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:20 pm**

Jacough wrote:
christ110 wrote:
D&B wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:>Zero counters

Move, either yourself or whatever they're targeting. Congratulations, you've defeated telesci.
Yeah and then you get bwoinked.

It's like saying "AI plasmaflood is counterable" but putting the counter in place gets you in shit.
Apply the ai logic to telescience. If you're the warden, use the damn sec console for once, and check science, or walk over there, or listen to the radio about it. If you see a telepad, then go nuts, otherwise, your character has no reason to think it exists...
Unless you arrest then for building the teleporter itself which I'm pretty sure would be kind of a no no, you're probably not gonna know they're using it for no good until after they've started stealing shit with it or teleported a max cap bomb into the brig and by the time you get down there you're up against one or more assholes armed with every gun in the armory and probably an ablative vest to top it off.

>bad things happen when sec entirely ignores one of the most destructive departments on the station
No kidding?

Posted: **Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:00 pm**

I loved telescience but ultimately it was just free loot, and was detrimental.

Posted: **Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:06 pm**

Bluespace wrote:I loved telescience but ultimately it was just free loot, and was detrimental.

That was before space ruins randomization

Posted: **Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:08 pm**

I like telescience and agree with cedarbridge that there were plenty of counters, people just forgot to use them. But goof's idea seems ok

Posted: **Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:03 pm**

D&B wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:>Zero counters

Move, either yourself or whatever they're targeting. Congratulations, you've defeated telesci.
Yeah and then you get bwoinked.

Moving down a hall isn't going to get you banned and is a 100% counter to telesci. Regardless, telesci virtually never comes up in play as it takes like 30 minutes of work to set up.

Posted: **Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:05 pm**

ShadowDimentio wrote:
D&B wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:>Zero counters

Move, either yourself or whatever they're targeting. Congratulations, you've defeated telesci.
Yeah and then you get bwoinked.
Moving down a hall isn't going to get you banned and is a 100% counter to telesci. Regardless, telesci virtually never comes up in play as it takes like 30 minutes of work to set up.

I was going to ask about that too. Name a time an admin has banned you for moving to avoid telesci.

Posted: **Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:51 pm**

I figured it would get the same treatment it gets on other servers where you're not allowed to move armory or others unless you have exact evidence of wrongdoing.

And exactly how do you counter a maxcap being teleported near your location?

Posted: **Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:49 pm**

D&B wrote:I figured it would get the same treatment it gets on other servers where you're not allowed to move armory or others unless you have exact evidence of wrongdoing.

And exactly how do you counter a maxcap being teleported near your location?

By posting an officer in the science guard post and doing what sec is supposed to do. Protect the different departments of the station. I mean, I know where you're going with this, but answer your own base assumptions. How do you counter a maxcap being put into a backpack and run to middle of medbay?

Posted: **Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:07 pm**

D&B wrote:I figured it would get the same treatment it gets on other servers where you're not allowed to move armory or others unless you have exact evidence of wrongdoing.

And exactly how do you counter a maxcap being teleported near your location?

the thing, is that /tg/ isn't other servers, we for some asinine reason enable the autism of validhunting. but exact evidence of wrongdoing isn't required for you to take preventative measures.
If you see a blue apc, that could be an ai hack, or an emag. regardless of wether or not it is the ai, doesn't matter, you now have an excuse to go to atmo and add hand-valves to the pipes.
Same thing applies to telescience, or toxins, or genetics, or viro. If you're the warden/hos/captain, use the camera console, ask your officers, listen to the comms. If you see anything amiss, you now have an excuse to go put the armory in a locker, and drag it into the permabrig... or some random room in maint. It requires being proactive, a little. Although i would argue thats within the confines of your job description, as sec officer/warden/hos/captain/AI.
To counter a maxcap being teleported to your location is simple, be proactive, or run. Its almost like an indirect version of our combat system "'how do you counter a stun from an e-bow being shot at you?' 'you prevent the guy from getting the e-bow, you keep away from him, you get a CNS rebooter from sci, you... etc'"

Posted: **Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:48 am**

I once sealed myself in telescience and teleported maxcaps around the station.
By the time anyone broke in, the station was a mess.

Posted: **Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:55 am**

The fact that it relied entirely on 3rd party maps and calculators was just horrible design.

The game should be played inside the game itself.

Posted: **Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:10 am**

CPTANT wrote:The fact that it relied entirely on 3rd party maps and calculators was just horrible design.

The game should be played inside the game itself.

Don't act like this was unique. Chemistry is still 99% checking a wiki

Posted: **Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:10 pm**

PKPenguin321 wrote:
CPTANT wrote:The fact that it relied entirely on 3rd party maps and calculators was just horrible design.

The game should be played inside the game itself.
Don't act like this was unique. Chemistry is still 99% checking a wiki

True to a certain extent, but I do feel there are differences. The more you do chemistry the more you learn those recipes and you require the wiki less and less. You never have that with telescience (unless you are some math savant). The wiki is also available in game.

Posted: **Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:33 pm**

Make it place short-lived (or toggled on-off) two-way portals instead of just "send/grab the thing" and at least you'll have to physically go to a location to steal shit there, and if the owner of the shit objects they can chase you back through it and kick your ass right there in the telesci lab

Posted: **Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:44 pm**

Easy fix.
Use the same code Kor did for the asteroid shuttle to offset itself from a specific position to a radius around that for each of the nuke op shuttle locations. So it's never the same.

Posted: **Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:46 pm**

so you're saying telesci is supposed to be imprecise?

Posted: **Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:02 pm**

Alipheese wrote:Easy fix.
Use the same code Kor did for the asteroid shuttle to offset itself from a specific position to a radius around that for each of the nuke op shuttle locations. So it's never the same.

Then it would make its more fun uses (snagging dead people by their suit sensor coords) literally impossible.

Posted: **Mon May 01, 2017 1:27 am**

christ110 wrote: 1, this is coderbus enforcing the rules, which was already enforced by the admins with a ban.

For the record, this isn't true. The entire reason telesci isn't around roundstart anymore is precisely because admins were complaining nonstop about issues stemming from it. And not all the complaints were about things that lead to bans. There were discussions precisely about moving everything in the armory into a locker at roundstart, for example.

Posted: **Mon May 01, 2017 2:36 am**

cedarbridge wrote:
Alipheese wrote:Easy fix.
Use the same code Kor did for the asteroid shuttle to offset itself from a specific position to a radius around that for each of the nuke op shuttle locations. So it's never the same.
Then it would make its more fun uses (snagging dead people by their suit sensor coords) literally impossible.

Not offset telesci. Offset the shuttle for the nuke ops. So lie one time it's 7 tiles to the left and 3 down. Then another time it's 3 tiles right and 2 up.

/tg/Station 13

Anchor the nuke, and bring back telescience.

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