/tg/Station 13

I dunno, maybe it'll at least cut down on rounds ending literally 5 minutes in.

Or maybe it will just make people whine that antag roulette is more difficult and have them sit around and waste time for 15~ minutes until they fail the roll and go braindead anyway.

Probably should only apply to traitors/DA specifically.

huh
might actually be a good idea

there's probably some concerns regarding power balance for some things, but it is worth discussing this

This seems like it would just delay the inveitable by 15 minutes. Plus, I dont see how it would work in LORE

TrustyGun wrote:This seems like it would just delay the inveitable by 15 minutes. Plus, I dont see how it would work in LORE

Sleeper agents being activated after having infiltrated the station

Also the whole point is to delay the inevitable, or at least give players some level of attachment to the round so they don't feel quite as inclined to end it 5 minutes in.

>Be 18 minutes in
>Sec are being shitters and arresting people for dumb shit
>Be thrown in the brig and have your stuff "confiscated", including your PDA
>"You are a traitor!"
>Kill yourself

This sounds very obnoxious, like when revheads would get activated while they were in line waiting to get executed/implanted by sec before that was fixed.

Alternatively

>Be virologist/sci/miner
>Spend 20 minutes passing out ubergear
>Everyone has it
>"You are a traitor!"
>Have fun trying to beat a crew with hysterically powerful gear

If you have no PDA on your person your headset automatically becomes an uplink.
If you are without a headset you get a pen.

14 minutes in - Mass surge of players waiting in lobby suddenly ready up in the last 30 seconds and validhunting security arming up outside the shuttle entrance

FantasticFwoosh wrote:14 minutes in - Mass surge of players waiting in lobby suddenly ready up in the last 30 seconds and validhunting security arming up outside the shuttle entrance

except now it's fifteen minutes after joining that you are notified whether or not you are a traitor

I mean, if it mass triggers, getting in BEFORE it activates could give you a better roll and displace the current RNG for who gets traitor out of the selection of people already playing is sort of what i was going towards. And of course meta-aware and validhunting sec will fully arm themselves totally for the 15 minute mark.

Secretly being antagonist and just not knowing is shit because you're wasting time in the earlygame and if you suddenly kill someone as antag before you are, without knowing (manslaughter, self defence etc) there's no way to defend any action without admins literally checking whether you have objectives in advance. It would be a ban lottery with everyone greytiding in the hopes they dont fail and were non-antag and if they are they are allowed to do it.

No admins on, got 15 minutes to grief murder and steal to my hearts content until i get vindicated with objective redtext indeterminately between 15-20 mins whether i am antag or not or bannu. Lol get good scrub.

When has not being a antagonist (and even just encouraged with the possibility you could be) ever stopped people from greytiding & repeated capital level (theft, murder, kidnapping command & officers) crimes?

No, setting up good traitor plans already requires enough time as it is.

How fast are they vs anti traitor plans? Such as hiding all objective items in 100 cheeses.

Have it trigger 5+1d10 minutes in.

Dunno, I'd enjoy it as the traitor. We're sleeper agents with memory implants, so it completely fits the premise. Encourages covert play and/or creates dramatic & memorable moments if it prompts someone to immediately go loud. It does add a bit of extra challenge, undoubtedly, but that's fine. The one thing it really screws over is the "steal the high-risk item 3 minutes in with an emag" strategy, which seems like an improvement.

The one thing it would alter is departments figuring out what they do at roundstart. Could suck if people started trying to claim a given are of sci every round in case they wind up being traitor. Then again, plenty of people only want to do one thing anyway, so I'm probably overthinking that one.

I like the idea.

if anything it would make people suiciding at roundstart because they didnt role antag stop being a thing.

How would you treat people being shit before it activates?

Is grief considered valid if they win the RNG roulette?

A lot of plans depend on using the station unpreparedness. If anything this will just make people become more easily armed/prepared to kill rather than do try to minimize deaths or do something covert.

I like this idea, but the activation time should have a random offset (kinda like blob) so that at 14:59 everyone doesn't just rush to maint and wait for the antag lottery.

For the scenarios myself & cosmic put up happening, then people moaning and crying about it afterwards. I think...

I think i would legitimately quit the server because it is a bad decision but that's my opinion. I can't see any good coming from publicizing too, a static (wait until antag) timer is almost as a hidden one since it will be meta-learnt eventually and a random timer within minutes 1 - 30 would mean that people still follow the examples which have been set and go completely off the rails until 30 minutes and then ghost out.

- Its a barrier to administration, since if admins can't see if you're antag and later after the 30 mins are up you are suddenly antag, your past actions are now valid or you will be banned for all your accumulative ahelps, its basically a 30 minute delay tactic in which the shitter has 30 minutes to go completely ape & trash the server majorly before copping the ban then reloading in on a separate evasion account. The current method works better in that respect.

Station maintainability is a good point, nice catch CS most of the time traitors who arrived earlier than you & rolled earlier than you will want to leave after they've murderboned the station as to escape alone or alive. (Okay i got my objective and murderboned everyone currently present, i can't be bothered to kill the janitor who just shipped in so im going to use this stolen ID to call)

FantasticFwoosh wrote:I think i would legitimately quit the server

Implement posthaste.

ShadowDimentio wrote:>Be 18 minutes in
>Sec are being imperfect people playing an imperfect game and arresting people for dumb shit
>Be thrown in the brig and have your stuff "confiscated", including your PDA
>"You are a traitor!"
>Kill yourself

This sounds very obnoxious, like when revheads would get activated while they were in line waiting to get executed/implanted by sec before that was fixed.

If you start shit and get arrested as nonantag you deserve to get traitored without pda tbh.

ShadowDimentio wrote:Alternatively

>Be virologist/sci/miner
>Spend 20 minutes passing out ubergear
>Everyone has it
>"You are a traitor!"
>Have fun trying to beat a crew with hysterically powerful gear

In 5-15 minutes there's not going to be ubergear around. And the only players that would lose from it are those that start murderboning roundstart when everyone's unprepared, which would be good riddance.

hasn't this been suggested 7 and a half times
also
>set main job to sec officer
>be assistant if not available
>oh shit, sec can't be antag, therefore I didn't get my antag roll
>go braindead in sec locker

confused rock wrote:hasn't this been suggested 7 and a half times
also
>set main job to sec officer
>be assistant if not available
>oh shit, sec can't be antag, therefore I didn't get my antag roll
>go braindead in sec locker

How would this be any different from now? You can already roll sec and go braindead if you don't get antag.

the difference is people are still going to suicide as nonantag AND they will take sec jobs

Then they can be punished for that, they're taking job spots for the sole purpose of rolling antags. Assistants suiciding is fine since they're not particularly important jobs.

if its fine then this suggestion is pointless.

XDTM wrote:
In 5-15 minutes there's not going to be ubergear around. And the only players that would lose from it are those that start murderboning roundstart when everyone's unprepared, which would be good riddance.

You are not giving out ubergear!! you must be antag!!

Oh trust me miners can solo a dragon easy, and get stuff in 15 minutes with KA's (which are also a solid weapon in depressure, throw a syndiebomb and then unload your KA). Casual gearchecks against traitors would be insane.

Isn't the current system for antag picking currently "pick antags > check if they have antag-restricted role > switch them to non-restricted role if so"? Wouldn't people who prefer security roles be a bit suspicious if they spawn in as non-security with a non-full staff?

Besides if you want to want rounds to last longer don't just trap people together, develop the jobs so they're actually engaging.

All jobs can be maxed in 20 minutes.

MMMiracles wrote:Isn't the current system for antag picking currently "pick antags > check if they have antag-restricted role > switch them to non-restricted role if so"? Wouldn't people who prefer security roles be a bit suspicious if they spawn in as non-security with a non-full staff?

They already are.

confused rock wrote:if its fine then this suggestion is pointless.

The point is not to just reduce antag-or-suicide, it's also to give people some time to get started and involved in their roles instead of having the token roundstart bomber disrupting the station from roundstart.
Plus it might lead to new strategies. Normally when i roll traitor i don't feel like, for example, doing RnD, for fear of ending up wasting my antag round in preparations then getting killed or shuttlecalled before i have a chance to act. Whereas if i'm already underway with it i have a whole array of tools to use for my traitor plans once i get traitored.

XDTM wrote:

MMMiracles wrote:Isn't the current system for antag picking currently "pick antags > check if they have antag-restricted role > switch them to non-restricted role if so"? Wouldn't people who prefer security roles be a bit suspicious if they spawn in as non-security with a non-full staff?

They already are.

Yeah but with the current system they spawn in and immediately get antag. In this system either you remove that feature entirely or you have people walking around knowing they're going to get antag in the next 10-15 minutes and all you've really done is stall them while they wait for their valid card.

Which may or may not never come, If admins need to know (as illustrated by my point of if you do antag things in the time frame and dont roll lucky you get banned if admins cannot read antagonist picks beforehand as per a hidden var trigger) they should and people will just Ahelp!

(shitty 1 hour byond account): AMI A TATOR TOT OR NOT I WANNA KILL SOME DUUUDES HAHAHA AND UPLOAD THE MAYMAYS OF ME TROLLING HTE SERVER VALID ON YOUTUUUBEZ

MMMiracles wrote:

XDTM wrote:

MMMiracles wrote:Isn't the current system for antag picking currently "pick antags > check if they have antag-restricted role > switch them to non-restricted role if so"? Wouldn't people who prefer security roles be a bit suspicious if they spawn in as non-security with a non-full staff?

They already are.

Yeah but with the current system they spawn in and immediately get antag. In this system either you remove that feature entirely or you have people walking around knowing they're going to get antag in the next 10-15 minutes and all you've really done is stall them while they wait for their valid card.

Oh, i see the issue now. The solutions i can think of are

- Giving false positives to sec officers, making them change jobs sometimes without antag. Which heavily sucks for people who just want to play sec.
- No antag roll for people who play sec. Which would just make even people interested in sec not play the role, due to missing out on antag.
- Re-enable antag security. Controversial, and i don't know the ramifications it would have.
- Accept that sec antag-rollers know that they're going to be antags from roundstart, allowing them to prepare far earlier than other traitors, giving them a heavy advantage. It's not good, but it might end up making more people play security, which is usually understaffed if what i hear is true.

None of these solutions is perfect, but i'd go with the third or the fourth if we were to implement this.

You could just make the delay before knowing you're a traitor much shorter/wider variable, to the point that some traitors will know round start, while others might only find out after 10 minutes or so.
Then people who would otherwise be sec can just default to knowing immediately since they would meta know already.

Any period of not knowing will either incite chaos or boredom/inactivity.

Hahahaha, i just killed a man because im totally a traitor but i just dont know it right hahaha... "Nervous Laughter"

FantasticFwoosh wrote:Any period of not knowing will either incite chaos or boredom/inactivity.

Hahahaha, i just killed a man because im totally a traitor but i just dont know it right hahaha... "Nervous Laughter"

Unlike extended rounds where people already finished doing their jobs, people do have tasks and stuff to do in the first minutes of a round. And i'm sure people behaving like antags before being antags is not ok.

Its never stopped them before, rolling for antagonist just gets longer in a period of not knowing. People ROLL for antag.

This is waiting for the dice to land or the coin to stop flipping in the air.

It's a good thing that we can explain it as you being brainwashed remotely and whatnot so admins can say "you weren't a traitor at the time you killed this guy, therefore DING DONG BANNU"

problems i see with this:
by 15 minutes in half the steal objectives will be gone anyways. especially the hand teles, antique laser gun, blueprints, hypospray, etc
by 15 minutes security will want to call the shuttle due to the amount of greytide that tends to happen when no antagonists have shown themselves within ten seconds of roundstart

BeeSting12 wrote:problems i see with this:
by 15 minutes in half the steal objectives will be gone anyways. especially the hand teles, antique laser gun, blueprints, hypospray, etc
by 15 minutes security will want to call the shuttle due to the amount of greytide that tends to happen when no antagonists have shown themselves within ten seconds of roundstart

there is nothing more disgusting than captains unzipping their antiques at roundstart

BeeSting12 wrote:problems i see with this:
by 15 minutes in half the steal objectives will be gone anyways. especially the hand teles, antique laser gun, blueprints, hypospray, etc
by 15 minutes security will want to call the shuttle due to the amount of minor IC crime that tends to happen when no antagonists have shown themselves within ten seconds of roundstart

Extended somehow lasts one-two hours, so i think there wouldn't be too much chaos.

XDTM wrote:

BeeSting12 wrote:problems i see with this:
by 15 minutes in half the steal objectives will be gone anyways. especially the hand teles, antique laser gun, blueprints, hypospray, etc
by 15 minutes security will want to call the shuttle due to the amount of minor IC crime that tends to happen when no antagonists have shown themselves within ten seconds of roundstart

Extended somehow lasts one-two hours, so i think there wouldn't be too much chaos.

You ever played extended in high pop?

It's always a shitshow

D&B wrote:

XDTM wrote:

BeeSting12 wrote:problems i see with this:
by 15 minutes in half the steal objectives will be gone anyways. especially the hand teles, antique laser gun, blueprints, hypospray, etc
by 15 minutes security will want to call the shuttle due to the amount of minor IC crime that tends to happen when no antagonists have shown themselves within ten seconds of roundstart

Extended somehow lasts one-two hours, so i think there wouldn't be too much chaos.

You ever played extended in high pop?

It's always a shitshow

At least the shitshows are more interesting than 2 hours of nothing happening.

BeeSting12 wrote:problems i see with this:
by 15 minutes in half the steal objectives will be gone anyways. especially the hand teles, antique laser gun, blueprints, hypospray, etc

This? This attitude infuriates me. I see it from time to time, and it's infuriating.

They're not "gone." Unless someone literally cremated all the antag objectives at roundstart (which is bannable), they are not gone. Someone took them. As a traitor, it is your job to find out who, and get it from that person, by force if necessary. It might involve (gasp) talking to people to find out who. It might involve surveillance, or getting fingerprints, or the like. It might, depending on what the objective is, involve cargo. It will probably involve killing for a reason other than murderbone. But traitors crying because their objective stopped being piss-easy is one of the worst developments of the server imo

bandit wrote:

BeeSting12 wrote:problems i see with this:
by 15 minutes in half the steal objectives will be gone anyways. especially the hand teles, antique laser gun, blueprints, hypospray, etc

This? This attitude infuriates me. I see it from time to time, and it's infuriating.

They're not "gone." Unless someone literally cremated all the antag objectives at roundstart (which is bannable), they are not gone. Someone took them. As a traitor, it is your job to find out who, and get it from that person, by force if necessary. It might involve (gasp) talking to people to find out who. It might involve surveillance, or getting fingerprints, or the like. It might, depending on what the objective is, involve cargo. It will probably involve killing for a reason other than murderbone. But traitors crying because their objective stopped being piss-easy is one of the worst developments of the server imo

whenever i get my tator objective i hide it in one of 200 remote areas that are almost impossible to find.

so tough luck finding that.

bandit wrote:

BeeSting12 wrote:problems i see with this:
by 15 minutes in half the steal objectives will be gone anyways. especially the hand teles, antique laser gun, blueprints, hypospray, etc

This? This attitude infuriates me. I see it from time to time, and it's infuriating.

They're not "gone." Unless someone literally cremated all the antag objectives at roundstart (which is bannable), they are not gone. Someone took them. As a traitor, it is your job to find out who, and get it from that person, by force if necessary. It might involve (gasp) talking to people to find out who. It might involve surveillance, or getting fingerprints, or the like. It might, depending on what the objective is, involve cargo. It will probably involve killing for a reason other than murderbone. But traitors crying because their objective stopped being piss-easy is one of the worst developments of the server imo

By gone I mean extremely hard to find. Obviously it is still possible, but read point two, and you'll see why that's a complaint. Nowadays I see the shuttle called fairly early leaving little time for traitors to do stuff such as go on a wild goose chase for their steal objective which is probably on an assistant who fucked off to space and died at the Syndicate salvage ruin. I don't even have this attitude because I don't care about greentexting as a traitor, I'm just pointing out possible problems with this idea and that struck me as one of them. Roundstart traitors have time to plan out how they can get their objective, and 15 minute in traitors can't surveill a target or plan out the theft of an object they don't know they have until 15 minutes in.

bman wrote:whenever i get my tator objective i hide it in one of 200 remote areas that are almost impossible to find.

so tough luck finding that.

let me guess it's the linen boxes

By gone I mean extremely hard to find. Obviously it is still possible, but read point two, and you'll see why that's a complaint. Nowadays I see the shuttle called fairly early leaving little time for traitors to do stuff such as go on a wild goose chase for their steal objective which is probably on an assistant who fucked off to space and died at the Syndicate salvage ruin. I don't even have this attitude because I don't care about greentexting as a traitor, I'm just pointing out possible problems with this idea and that struck me as one of them. Roundstart traitors have time to plan out how they can get their objective, and 15 minute in traitors can't surveill a target or plan out the theft of an object they don't know they have until 15 minutes in.

maybe you should git gud, if you need more time then recall the shuttle

80% of tators ignore their objectives anyway. :^)

Also speaking of steal objectives, I've always thought that a more interesting way of going about it would be to have multiple tators after the one item. Fluff wise it can be agents belonging to different syndie factions wanting the same shit for political/gloating/research purposes. Then let them buy a special pinpointer that points to their target item, but isn't quite as precise, ie: points to the item when far away, but when close just tells you that it's nearby instead.
That gives you a solution to not being able to find the item at all, as well as a good reason for (non murderbone) killing.

bandit wrote:

bman wrote:whenever i get my tator objective i hide it in one of 200 remote areas that are almost impossible to find.

so tough luck finding that.

let me guess it's the linen boxes

I was thinking Toilet cistern.

I like this idea, it feels frustrating when you finish your jobs role path only to immediately get on the shuttle, while extended is too boring. This is a really good idea for spicing things up.

bandit wrote:

BeeSting12 wrote:problems i see with this:
by 15 minutes in half the steal objectives will be gone anyways. especially the hand teles, antique laser gun, blueprints, hypospray, etc

This? This attitude infuriates me. I see it from time to time, and it's infuriating.

They're not "gone." Unless someone literally cremated all the antag objectives at roundstart (which is bannable), they are not gone. Someone took them. As a traitor, it is your job to find out who, and get it from that person, by force if necessary. It might involve (gasp) talking to people to find out who. It might involve surveillance, or getting fingerprints, or the like. It might, depending on what the objective is, involve cargo. It will probably involve killing for a reason other than murderbone. But traitors crying because their objective stopped being piss-easy is one of the worst developments of the server imo

dude they're basically gone. Unless you murderbone the entire station of 60-70 people and search them you aren't going to find it. "talking to people to find out who" If you asked about a traitor objective that isn't something people want to steal like the laser gun or hand tele then sec is probably going to valid you because "lol he wanted the station blueprints, he must be tator". Those are the kinds of players we have.

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:

bandit wrote:

bman wrote:whenever i get my tator objective i hide it in one of 200 remote areas that are almost impossible to find.

so tough luck finding that.

let me guess it's the linen boxes

I was thinking Toilet cistern.

oh man dude, there's one time I'm convinced that someone had a meta buddy as a ghost who saw me hide something in a toilet. It was a document exchange round, the exchange went great, neither of us has the objective to get both sets of documents. About 5 minutes later I swapped clothes just in case and went to a toilet. I made sure no one following me, checked every locker on the way, etc. I hid my docs in the toilet along with a revolver in case sec searched me for some reason. I came back later and the fucking toilet was open, no other toilets were open, it was the only one someone checked. Unless I got incredibly unlucky and some goon was checking all the toilets I have no idea how they found it.