The Eternal 'Port Baymed' Thread

[Alex Crimson]

Bottom post of the previous page:

You can be cloned and sent on your way with a clean SE within minutes if the medical team are not derps. What you are describing isnt a problem with the medical system, its an incompetent medical team. You are going to encounter that no matter what. A medical system with more depth would just make it more fun for the guys healing you.

[Steelpoint]

The main problem I'm seeing is that some people dislike a medical system where the player is not in control.

The proposed systems put the responsibility of healing far more on the MD and away from the victim than we have currently.

[Stephie]

That's why I really like Skorvy's idea of making surgery more MGS3-like, as opposed to shifting the spotlight to surgeons or making chemistry incredibly complicated.

/vg/ also has some nice ideas. For example, you can stop internal organ damage by eating lots and lots of bicaridine there. That still leaves you relying on medbay, but having an alternative to praying that the surgeon is competent and alive still helps, somewhat.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

You can be cloned and sent on your way with a clean SE within minutes if the medical team are not derps. What you are describing isnt a problem with the medical system, its an incompetent medical team. You are going to encounter that no matter what. A medical system with more depth would just make it more fun for the guys healing you.

Incompetence of other players should not remove people from the round. My point stands.

May be we should also make setting up the engine incredibly complex and in depth instead of couple of clicks which it currently is. Would you not like that?

The thing is, the engine would not be set up half of the time.

[Steelpoint]

Setting up the singularity is more complex and in depth than medical is currently.

[Alex Crimson]

You can be cloned and sent on your way with a clean SE within minutes if the medical team are not derps. What you are describing isnt a problem with the medical system, its an incompetent medical team. You are going to encounter that no matter what. A medical system with more depth would just make it more fun for the guys healing you.

Incompetence of other players should not remove people from the round. My point stands.

May be we should also make setting up the engine incredibly complex and in depth instead of couple of clicks which it currently is. Would you not like that?

The thing is, the engine would not be set up half of the time.

SS13 has always suffered from incompetent players, or people making mistakes. It does not matter if you make the game more complicated or dumb it down. Engineers still mess up the engine or flood their department with plasma. Medical doctors forget about people in cryo tubes or let people die for stupid reasons. This is never going to change. Your "point" is just player error, which i do not see as a valid reason to not change game mechanics.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Setting up the singularity is more complex and in depth than medical is currently.

It is nothing more than clicking on things in certain order. You don't really need an understanding of how it works to set it up.

SS13 has always suffered from incompetent players, or people making mistakes. It does not matter if you make the game more complicated or dumb it down. Engineers still mess up the engine or flood their department with plasma. Medical doctors forget about people in cryo tubes or let people die for stupid reasons. This is never going to change. Your "point" is just player error, which i do not see as a valid reason to not change game mechanics.

This post is funny. First of all, it's nothing more than opinion, while what I say is a fact. It is a fact that baymed can easily leave people unable to do anything about their injuries. Hell, remember that thing about breaking bones of a changeling? It is also a fact that you REQUIRE other peoples' help to get treatment. It is a fact that being healed is of no fun to patient. It is a fact that healing takes more time in baymed. Therefore, from all this, we can conclude that people will be forced to have no fun for a considerable amount of time. Here's your reason not to change game mechanics.

Which brings me to my second point. There doesn't have to be a reason NOT to change game mechanics, there has to be a reason TO change game mechanics. So far it's basically "it's more cool and realistic", which is very vague and only covers experience of DOCTORS, very much a minority. It covers at maximum 5-6 people who want to play doctors.

Thirdly, I will argue that it's not actually that cool and interesting for doctors. Yes, it's more interesting than current system, but really, it's also just a matter of few clicks. What makes it interesting on bay, well, what makes EVERYTHING interesting on bay, is a social aspect. Please don't argue with another fact that social aspect on /tg/ sucks ass. The proof is the state of all RP jobs, which is poor. Most people don't want anything from medbay other than fast and efficient treatment. You make that harder to provide. There'll be no fun of doctor-patient roleplay, which is what all that is about. Medical system on bay is all about creating more roleplay situations and discouraging violence. Why would we want to discourage violence on /tg/, I ask? It's all what this server is about, violence and powergaming.

[Myroc]

Setting up the singularity is more complex and in depth than medical is currently.

It is nothing more than clicking on things in certain order.

Everything in the entire game can be summed up as "clicking on things in a certain order". This does absolutely nothing to prove your point.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Everything in the entire game can be summed up as "clicking on things in a certain order". This does absolutely nothing to prove your point.

That is incorrect. Most of the things are, indeed, like that, but there are few which are not. In particular, genetics and telescience.

But that does prove my point precisely. We don't need to make everything incredibly complex and RNG. Simplicity by itself doesn't mean that the system is bad. Medical system is not brilliant, but it does exactly what we want it to do. Same with electricity and atmos. Of course, we could make setting up engine, fiddling with atmos alarms and APCs a complex puzzle, but why? They don't have to be.

[Alex Crimson]

Genetics is a bunch of clicking. Atleast when i played it. You sit in the interface and repeatedly radiate a block until you get the values you want, without causing the other blocks to go over 800.

Your post is not fact at all. You are assuming people will need to be taken out of the round for a long period of time. Nobody said this needed to be a direct baymed port. You could add depth to medical without needing to make it a long-winded process. Lings could be given an ability to regenerate all forms of damage. All antags could be given something that could bypass the need to visit medical and blow their cover.

You seem to be the kind of person that wants to powergame and not have to deal with the consequences of your murderboning actions. The kind of person that would keep a medkit and stunprod in their backpack "just in case".

I still think some kind of port of baymed would improve the game experience for many. I can understand that being taken out of the round due to minor injuries would be annoying, but there is nothing saying that needs to be the case.

[Steelpoint]

Every action in almost every game in existence can be dumbed down to "clicking buttons or things". That is a poor argument to use in denying expanding content.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Genetics is a bunch of clicking. Atleast when i played it. You sit in the interface and repeatedly radiate a block until you get the values you want, without causing the other blocks to go over 800.

Err, clicking is a tool here. I mean, holy shit, we're not talking about the way you input data. You need to have an understanding of how genetics works, you cannot just memorize a single correct way to do it.

Why do you even argue about this bullshit and ignore all other points I've made? Well, may be not you, Alex, but two other certain people in this thread did.

Your post is not fact at all. You are assuming people will need to be taken out of the round for a long period of time. Nobody said this needed to be a direct baymed port. You could add depth to medical without needing to make it a long-winded process. Lings could be given an ability to regenerate all forms of damage. All antags could be given something that could bypass the need to visit medical and blow their cover.

Then may be you should write in a comprehensive way what exactly do you want to change? You call thread "baymed", you constantly use the term "baymed" and then you say that I cannot argue against it because that will not be baymed?

You also did not said anything against the fact that people WILL be taken out of rounds and for some reason started talking about antags, I'm not sure why.

You seem to be the kind of person that wants to powergame and not have to deal with the consequences of your murderboning actions. The kind of person that would keep a medkit and stunprod in their backpack "just in case".

That is a poor argument to use

Even correct opinions hardly will be of any use, and of what use is this?

I still think some kind of port of baymed would improve the game experience for many. I can understand that being taken out of the round due to minor injuries would be annoying, but there is nothing saying that needs to be the case.

I seriously cannot comprehend how it would improve game experience for anybody but doctors (even though I already said that I have some thoughts against that as well), can you explain that?

[Alex Crimson]

I use the term "baymed" to simplify what would be an improved medical system that would include more variety in the damage types, and tools available for medical staff to heal people that is more in-depth than just slapping the contents of a medkit onto injured parts of a body.

Like i said, it does not need to be anything complicated, nor would it only improve the experience for medical only. If you want some examples on what i personally would like to see added...

Different levels of brute and burn damage depending on the situation. Slashing damage causing bleeding but no ability to break bones or knock a person unconscious. Toolboxes, Metal Rods and such causing blunt trauma that would not make a person bleed out much, but could break bones or stun a person is struck in the head. Similarly with burns, plasma causing the highest level of burn damage, requiring special treatment. More basic burns coming from being lit on fire etc.

Broken bones causing some kind of disadvantage depending on the bone broken. Legs making you walk slower, arms make you unable to use the hand etc. Fixing them would require some kind of advanced chemical over time, or a machine in medbay similar to a Sleeper.

Bullet wounds causing damage, bleeding and pain until removed. Removing them being a simple process of extracting the bullet and cauterizing the wound. Then repairing the damage caused as you would any other laceration.

Pain making you scream, like bay. Ive always thought that was a fun mechanic.

Dismemberment. It would be something that happens rarely. Requiring explosions or someone actively trying to cut off a limb with a large sharp weapon or Energy Sword. Put a machine in Surgery that accepts biomass, such as a monkey or spare limb to act as "material" to grow new ones. Then just reattach the limb to a person as you would in Robotics.

Changes like this could make healing people more fun, depending of course on how its implemented. You could have a high damage threshold for breaking bones with basic items. So as to not make it easy to do so without putting effort into it. Bullet wounds and pain would stop players taking multiple shots to the face, healing with a medkit, and coming right back into the action. Combat i think would be more fun if there were more ways to kill your target than just shooting/hitting them until they fall over and go limp.

I didnt say anything about Toxin damage, because i like the changes Numbers has done with his new chemistry stuff. Expanding the types of Anti-tox and making the curing of Toxin damage more challenging. You can read about all that here: http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9

My ideas are not very well thought out. They do not need to be added exactly as i have typed them out. Its more that i just want those kinds of general mechanics in the game, in some form or another, to make combat and the healing of damage more in-depth than just applying bruise packs or ointment.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

You basically described baymed with all its issues and said that it's not baymed.

[Alex Crimson]

Baymed has a lot more depth than what i described.

[Psyentific]

Why would we want to discourage violence on /tg/, I ask? It's all what this server is about, violence and powergaming.

I miss /tg/ - Traditional Games.

Goddamn pubbies

[Lo6a4evskiy]

It's not necessarily a good thing, but it's what it is. Why don't you play on other servers, I ask, if you do not like this one?

[Steelpoint]

Lo6 you really need to get off the "get off this server cause you like another servers/games mechanic" bandwagon, it was old months ago and its old now.

Our Medical system is boring as it stands, the Medical Doctor has no real relevance aside from opening the front door, essentially a overpaid chauffeur. There is no complexity, no depth, no real and engaging content that ultimately just wastes good real estate on the station as I could replace all of medbay with two Cryo Cells, two Sleepers and a 4x4 room full of medical supplies.

We don't want a 1:1 conversion of baymed to TG, that would not work. We wan't to expand our medical system to give MD's something more relevant to do, make people have a second thought of running into areas blowing up and ultimately make the job interesting. There are SO many ways we can do this that does not infringe on your right to never have to rely on someone else for help. Something as simple as a splint to negate the effects of a bad wound or makeshift medical supplies such as sewing thread or wielders. We are limited to only our imagination. Antags would get unique protection or items so they can still murder half the station in peace.

Of course either you'll ignore what I've said, or cherry pick a few lines and fixate on that, or you'll address my post as a whole.

When a simple bot that can be made in 5 seconds can replace a entire department in its near entirety, something is horribly wrong.

[Psyentific]

It's not necessarily a good thing, but it's what it is. Why don't you play on other servers, I ask, if you do not like this one?

I do like this one. Or, rather, I like Arytom and the regulars on it. Sibyl, eh. As you said above, powergame and valids. TGStation is my home - Most of the people I enjoy playing with are here, and I met them here. I learned to play here, I care about this community more than others, and I sneer down at the rest from my throne of robust elitism.

Personally, I think TGstation needs to get back to its roots, light to medium RP, less valids, less greytide, less lawone twisting, less shittery in general. TGStation's parent community is /tg/, the board on 4ch for traditional games - D&D, 40k, Savage Worlds. Rolling dice and pretending to be elves and/or spacemen. Most people there enjoy some degree of RP, and the ones that don't are generally unobtrusive about it. A place where "Neckbeard" is a cultural label and a term of affectionate endearment.

It really saddens me that TGS is "The Powergame Server" - I mean, we're all robust, we all know exactly what we're doing and how to do it. We all know what everyone else is doing and how to do that, too. I like that - It means my rounds are much less ruined by incompetence than they would be on Hub servers. I actually can expect baseline competence from the average Sibyl/Artyom player, and that's unique to our community - I won't find that anywhere else.

But somewhere along the line we stopped pretending to be teeny-tiny 2d spacemen. Somewhere along the line, the average player stopped playing a character and started playing himself, or just stopped playing. The 4ch ancienfagot in me wants to blame newfags, people coming in from the outside, ignorant of our culture and values. Part of me wants to bash Bay for becoming the popular face of SS13 RP while still being autistic manchildren, and so giving the rest of us a bad name. Both those are less than half-right, probably - I don't think it's that people don't like it, rather, that they never tried it. Really, though, I wish people would put as much effort into playing a character as they do playing the game. Even if it's throwing on a space-aussie accent, calling everyone a cunt and picking fights with brown people, it's better than talking in all-lowers and stealing all access five minutes in, or ghosting just to spite people. Heck, you could do it at the same time - Roll up some racial stereotypes and see where that takes you.

As a codebase, though? TGS and NTS could be better - It's why I made this thread.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

You guys don't even know what you want. Some say that it will help stop mindless murderboner - others say that they will give antags items to help them keep murderbonering. You say baymed and then you say that it's not baymed.

If you REALLY want changes - come up with something good and describe it as you want to see it implemented. All my points against baymed - as I remember it, not some hybrid you got going on in your minds - stand. And if you don't want it to be treated as baymed - stop calling it such. It's silly to expect any other reaction.

I'm still gonna say no to broken bones or anything short of killing that will make you unable to fully heal yourself. I think it's a fair thing to ask. Murder is forbidden - drunk fights are not. I don't want to end up borg without modules and access just because some jerkface started a fight in HoP's line. Nor do I want to get banned for accidentally breaking someone's bones.

When you think about changes, think about fun for everybody, not a minority or "how cool" the change would be. We don't need realism for the heck of it, we want fun. You can say "in depth" all you want, in reality those words mean only what you want them to mean.

[Steelpoint]

We've never really needed a reason to add content to SS13 in the past, though I do know where your coming from in terms of balancing fun and game play mechanics.

I've posted twice in this thread my version of how a medical system might work, the premise being that even serious wounds can be supported and negated to a large extent by a player individually and it can be worked so that you don't require someone else to assist but it will simply take longer to apply.

Fun is subjective and hard to pin down in this scenario, I believe that a situation where wounds can have a large impact on a player beyond just applying a ointment on the wound can increase tension but also incentive players to avoid unneeded conflict as it could result in serious longer lasting damage. On the other hand other people, such as yourself I imagine, believe that the current system provides the least intrusive system possible thus it makes things more fun.

Also, we will never know what the general playerbase feels on the medical system without an implementation of it. As much as "trials" and similar have got a negative stigma attached to them as of late a actual proper medical overhaul and trial period would work well in ascertaining the playerbase's opinion on which medical system we should use.

Spoiler:

My system can be altered so that there are multiple ways to heal serious wounds aside from the sleeper method, again to allow someone to not be constrained to medbay, as well as possible healing over time if your well fed and have applied medipatches.

[Kelenius]

Steelpoint, how exactly is your suggestion improving someone's experience with the game?

[lumipharon]

Well there's not much paranoia laden in this game if you can shrug off bullets to the head or an axe the chest with one click of a bruise pack and be on your way.

[lumipharon]

Personally I would want a system where (severe) wounds could cause certain effects such as bleeding (bullets/blades etc), break bones (bludgeoning someone to near crit with a tool box etc) and severe burns (laser cannons, multiple lasers to the same body part, fires etc).

You can 'field treat' them, bandage bleeding body parts with bandages/ripped up bedsheets/jumpsuits to temporarily stop you from (slowly) taking more damage due to bleeding. Broken legs would slow you down/force you to walk, broken arms mean you would drop shit in that hand etc. Bruise packs/ointment could still recover damage, but it wouldnt stop the bleeding/heal the actual burn, for the serious shit you will soon OR later, have to get some proper medical treatment, either at medbay or get some ghetto surgery going.

This could mean sowing up nasty wounds to stop bleeding altogether, cryo/surgery/other to reknit broken bones and heal hidiously burnt flesh.

So no, I don't think anyone wants baymed 'as is', but do you really think that the whole healing system is interesting as is? There are lots of alternative suggestions, all better then what we have, and can all be tweaked to satisfaction, given some time and testing.

[Psyentific]

Personally I would want a system where (severe) wounds could cause certain effects such as bleeding (bullets/blades etc), break bones (bludgeoning someone to near crit with a tool box etc) and severe burns (laser cannons, multiple lasers to the same body part, fires etc).

You can 'field treat' them, bandage bleeding body parts with bandages/ripped up bedsheets/jumpsuits to temporarily stop you from (slowly) taking more damage due to bleeding. Broken legs would slow you down/force you to walk, broken arms mean you would drop shit in that hand etc. Bruise packs/ointment could still recover damage, but it wouldnt stop the bleeding/heal the actual burn, for the serious shit you will soon OR later, have to get some proper medical treatment, either at medbay or get some ghetto surgery going.

This could mean sowing up nasty wounds to stop bleeding altogether, cryo/surgery/other to reknit broken bones and heal hidiously burnt flesh.

You just described all the Cool Stuff that Baymed has.

So no, I don't think anyone wants baymed 'as is', but do you really think that the whole healing system is interesting as is? There are lots of alternative suggestions, all better then what we have, and can all be tweaked to satisfaction, given some time and testing.

Exactly - One of the reasons I'm putting baymed forward (Instead of shooting it down) is because the injury values and probabilities are tweakable. You can't change "Needing surgery to fix this" because that's one of the main selling points of the system, but you can change the point at which you need the surgery - The "This" that you're fixing. You can also change the surgical process involved, whether it's a simple half-minute surgery, an intricate ten minute process or somewhere in-between. There's also finally a use for ghetto surgery, with wirecutters, bedsheets, and glass shards - Back Alley Assistant Doctors setting up shop in Maint.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

You guys have at least two servers with that med already. Why do you keep insisting on implementing it here while ignoring legit flaws that the system has?

Don't say "we want here to be better", because it means better FOR YOU, not better FOR EVERYBODY

[Steelpoint]

You proclaim to know what everyone wants then? No one person is in such a position to place themselves into such a sweeping role and I would demand you back up your claim you know what everyone wants.

Yes, we want a more advance medical system because "we" think it would be better and make the game better, we don't claim we know the opinion of everyone who frequents our sever. A good amount of people in this thread have supported such a claim with the main point of contention being the extent of a change, most of us don't want to see a full 1:1 conversion of baymed but would prefer a modification of our current med system.

[Neerti]

I have a neat system in my head about how to accomplish this with stuff we already have but I don't think I could get to it in quite a long time due to other projects being in the way.

[Kelenius]

You proclaim to know what everyone wants then? No one person is in such a position to place themselves into such a sweeping role and I would demand you back up your claim you know what everyone wants.

Yes, we want a more advance medical system because "we" think it would be better and make the game better, we don't claim we know the opinion of everyone who frequents our sever. A good amount of people in this thread have supported such a claim with the main point of contention being the extent of a change, most of us don't want to see a full 1:1 conversion of baymed but would prefer a modification of our current med system.

Steelpoint, how exactly is your suggestion improving someone's experience with the game?

[Steelpoint]

It depends really on your definition of "experience" with the game. The goal would be making wounds a more real actual threat, a treatable but still something that has to be taken into consideration. I personally think more serious and lasting wounds to a player character would enhance the "experience" but others would disagree.

The concern brought forward is that the proposed changes would make players reliant on others for treatment of serious if not fatal wounds, which we already do with Cryo and Cloning. My attempt at a solution means that a player is not doomed to visit medbay because his leg got broken by being slashed in it several times by an esword (Which would have either resulted in his leg being cut off under the dismemberment system or the players death) but can treat it himself in a makeshift capacity.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

You said something about me knowing what everyone wants, even though I mentioned nothing of sort, yet you agree that people will disagree. You cannot add something that changes experience (don't go all "definition", it's pretty obvious what this means) of ALL players without exception without content of at least most players. There are plenty of people, myself included, who don't want to do it. Yet instead of acknowledging that yeah, it's not for everybody, you keep arguing that it should be implemented DESPITE the fact that there are people who DON'T want it implemented.

Seriously, what the hell? You like it, fine, don't try to force it on others.

You could argue that this way we would get no changes at all, but it's not true. It's just medical system is WAY too major to change as you will. It's like if you say "Oi, you now have to wear internals all the time to breath."

[Steelpoint]

Very few sweeping decisions are universally liked, I would argue a vote, forum or other, should be held to at least guage the general opinion since right now we're just spouting "people support me more than you" and that gets no where.

Don't try and position yourself to hold a majority opinion however. I counted and for what its worth in this thread alone 11 people support a change to medical (In one way or another) and 4 people are against a change, I just think a vote might be the best option since I have a feeling more people would support a change to medical than against.

[imblyings]

Reliance on specialized or restricted items and procedures- and player competency/availability- for full functionality is a pretty major change.

It's too fast to cause damage in SS13 for one. Crits happen in seconds. Final end-states for escalations between non-antags are usually crits. Crits and deaths happen all the time in SS13.

If there was some sort of halo damage type system, where regenerating health acts as a buffer for normal wounds while a second store of health tracks crippling damage, that might be ideal. Some items probably simply shouldn't be able to do crippling damage or have very low chances of doing so.

The rules would also have to change to.

I'm okay with the idea of sacrificing some of my fun for increased depth for medical jobs, with more consequences for fighting- the problem is the expectation I have is that everybody also plays along, doesn't resort to fighting instantly, talks things out more, antag licenses get restricted, rounds are longer, all that. I would in fact like to try out being taken into medbay after a serious fistfight with some faggot assistant breaks my arm but not after breaking his everything and then being gently taken to surgery by a med doctor and then taken to a patient room by a tender nurse to rest and then the nurse comes in and takes notes about my recovery and asks if everything is okay.

But I don't think all of those things are possible.

It's probably an all or nothing thing here.

[Steelpoint]

One thing I found interesting in other code bases with more indepth medical systems is that you don't die as easily, sure you'll get knocked into crit just as fast as you do on TG but you can survive a LOT of punishment in crit.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

We don't count "change to medical" we count "change to baymed" support and against it. I mean, will you stop that? YOU SAID BAYMED, IT'S GONNA BE BAYMED WE'RE TALKING ABOUT

I am absolutely NOT against changes to medical, I am against anything that has to do with baymed though.

One thing I found interesting in other code bases with more indepth medical systems is that you don't die as easily, sure you'll get knocked into crit just as fast as you do on TG but you can survive a LOT of punishment in crit.

It's because nobody treats people in crit here, they are being dragged to cryo and if they die to cloning. On bay you can't even move people in crit without killing them. Do you seriously expect people to bother with roller beds? On bay you save people, here you save 2D sprite.

[imblyings]

I kind of want several different stages of crit

one where most physical altercations between non-antags would be satisfied at reaching- slurring, dropping things from wincing out of pain, brief one-two second unconsciousness maybe, dripping blood, slow movement speed, possibly confusion, emotes of pain like crying, whimpering ecetera. You're beaten, you've lost, you're not a threat but you are alive enough to back the fuck off.

one resulting from more serious intentional attempts to cause injury, like longer periods of unconsciousness, dropping things more frequently, artificial lag (to simulate getting knocked about way too hard, make it happen pls artifical lag 2014), more painful emotes, slower speed. You are seriously hurt, at your limit, wavering in and out of consciousness, and it'll be through some painful fucking attempts to get to help.

and then a final one where it's the crit that we have now, where you've been beaten so much your body and brain have shut down into a coma-like state.

I mean lets be honest most antags are going to skip straight past the first two and into the third but if we put enough space between the three states, some antags might not stick around long enough to beat someone into a coma and certainly, non-antags should after a while of acclimatization get used to being satisfied with beating someone to the first stage of crit.


edit

artificial lag is a fucking great idea this is an objective truth

you could also make attackbys randomly fail for more serious states of crit so people in a serious state of damage actually physically can't fight back as well or use items that well or anything well

[Steelpoint]

It would also mean having a better chance of keeping someone in the round and a chance for paramedics/MD's to save a life.

Lo6a4evskiy, I think you jumped off the deep end. Baymed or Newmed or revised TGMed its all the same in the goal of this and other threads, a overhaul to our existing medical system to make it more in-depth and complex. Your arguments have involved insulting your opponents and acting like a dick in general which is not pleasant nor helps your argument.

I like the crit system imblyings put forward, it would allow a antag to get someone out of a fight but keep them alive for far longer than we do currently.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Your arguments have involved insulting your opponents

Funny you should say that. I've been called powergaming shit and such, what did I ever said to you?

more in-depth and complex

This does not equal good.

What do you even mean by "in depth"? "Complex" can easily end up being "complicated", which is not a good thing.

As for crit things, I don't really see the point, honestly. I mean, if I understand it correctly, it just means people are more bullet-spongy, so to say. Or is it to make putting others into crit in drunk fights valid?

[Steelpoint]

It would mean keeping people in the round more consistently and finishing someone off is harder to do. Humans are surprisingly resilient, and other times as weak as a twig.

Here's an example from a scenario I was in on another server. I was in the bar and a explosion went off, I was on the edge of the blast radius though I was knocked into critical and had my left arm torn off. Dispute this I could still slowly move from the wreckage though I could not talk (Doing so made me gasp). I was able to drag myself away from the wreckage and other people in worse status as I and find someone else who survived. He had lost an arm and leg yet was somehow not in critical, after giving me a medical injection we dragged each other to medbay. That was a memorable moment for me.

Had that been on TG Station I would have either been lying in critical dead in the bar, or have slapped a bruise pack on myself and been on my way.

A critical state where you can still slowly move but not talk can create unique scenarios like I listed above, antags can still knock someone out but it still gives said victim a second chance of survival unless the antag wants to finish them off.

[Alex Crimson]

Powergaming shit? I never said that. I suggested that you were a powergamer, which isnt much of an insult. I never used any kind of swear.

But as i said before, you basically just do not want long-term consequences to your actions. You want to be able to start random fights and beat up your opponent without dealing with the fact you could hurt them in a way that cannot be cured by applying a bruise pack.

That isnt a bad thing. I have got into my fair share of petty fights and come out on both sides or ended up dead. But i do not see it as a valid reason to not change the current shallow medical system. I doubt an admin is going to ban you for breaking someones arm in a fight. This isnt Bay, the rules have never been that strict, nor does the method for healing special injuries need to be a long-winded process that ruins a persons round.

Why are we still even debating this? No matter what we suggest, you are going to stick to your opinion that the system is fine. We are going to be arguing like this until an admin gets sick of us and locks the thread. So yeah, lets not do that.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

It would mean keeping people in the round more consistently and finishing someone off is harder to do. Humans are surprisingly resilient, and other times as weak as a twig.

Here's an example from a scenario I was in on another server. I was in the bar and a explosion went off, I was on the edge of the blast radius though I was knocked into critical and had my left arm torn off. Dispute this I could still slowly move from the wreckage though I could not talk (Doing so made me gasp). I was able to drag myself away from the wreckage and other people in worse status as I and find someone else who survived. He had lost an arm and leg yet was somehow not in critical, after giving me a medical injection we dragged each other to medbay. That was a memorable moment for me.

Had that been on TG Station I would have either been lying in critical dead in the bar, or have slapped a bruise pack on myself and been on my way.

A critical state where you can still slowly move but not talk can create unique scenarios like I listed above, antags can still knock someone out but it still gives said victim a second chance of survival unless the antag wants to finish them off.

All of this can be done by tweaking damage threshold and adding more effects to low health than just less movement speed. Why all the crit stages nonsense?

If you want people to be more bullet-spongy (for whatever reason), increase their health.

If you want people to be muted when hurt, add that effect to low health.

We have exactly that currently, when your health is low, you're slowed down, your screen goes reddish, when your health is low enough, you go into crit, etc.

See, you are over-complicating the solution already.

[Steelpoint]

I'm making medical alteration suggestions not Baymed suggestions. I don't particularly like Baymed since it simply is not compatible with TG game play.

It could be tweaked however or the current system can be tweaked, I just get the feeling your being overtly negative about anything put forward that changes the status quo even when its not connected to Baymed.

---------------------------

Let me "elaborate" my suggestion in a way you can't misinterpret.

Critical Status is now reworked, humans have 300 health which is divided into three stages of life. Normal, Deteriorating and Critical.

- Normal (300 to 200 hp): Functions as normal life works now, nothing unique.

- Deteriorating (199hp to 120 hp): User loses the ability to communicate, moves at 75% speed ontop of injuries sustained to limbs. Unable to use complicated items though can use basic medical stabilization tools and can activate medical devices (Cryo). User loses health at a steady rate, health loss can be halted with the application of a innaprovaline. User can also lapse into and out of concisenesses

- Critical (119 to 0 hp): Identical to current critical status.

Players still go into critical at the same rate they did before, however now killing someone requires a bit more effort to pull off and gives someone a chance for survival. I think it's worth a shot and its not BAYMED!

[Kelenius]

Unable to use complicated items though can use basic medical stabilization tools and can activate medical devices (Cryo).

This

will be a pure pain to code.

[Munchlax]

How about a poll guys.

[Steelpoint]

Yes please, that will be the nail in the coffin for this argument.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Speed should be lost gradually depending on the health. Probably starting from the second stage? May be earlier. Also make them lose ability to break grab (so it may actually be somewhat useful, who woulda thought!).

[Psyentific]

Poll added. If I missed someone's alternative, please tell me.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Some sort of neutral ground? Like, change is fine, but current is also fine?

[imblyings]

im going to be a faggot and post my own idea that I'll be an ass and never code or try coding.

the human body~
>can be fine, fucked, severely fucked, in a coma, dead
>the fine state is where shit like bruise packs and ointments work.
>from fucked to inna coma, pills, sleepers and cryo works.
>from inna coma to dead, surgery is needed. Surgery can be used from early on as severely fucked though, and is an alternative for those not wanting to go in freezing prison to be forgotten.
>these states only incorporate bruise and burn damage, tox, oxyloss and clone damage are tracked differently.

being fine is being fine. Everything is normal. You can dick around with punches, non-antag bitch fights ecetera and still be perfectly functional after. If you take things too far then you are being fucked

being fucked is when you are coughing, dropping items, slurring, vision blinking black every few seconds, welder vision and major slowdown. At this point, ointments and bruise packs don't work. Pills, sleepers, cryo are your friends. Being at this point and somewhere between this point but not quite at severely fucked, means you have already gone through a severe beating. Playing the game is now no longer that fun unless you head the fuck to medbay. If you don't head to medbay and get slapped around further, you are severely fucked

severely fucked is being fucked several times over. Your movement is a powerpoint, your vision blacks out nearly every other second, you pretty much can't carry items in your hand, pain emotes everywhere, dripping blood, you black out every few seconds, you can't use anything complicated (think brainrot or mass brain damage), you walk like you've drunk too much, maybe some hallucinations just because. At this point, pills don't work too well, ointment and bruise packs simply don't, and you need cryo or surgery. The game literally is unplayable, it's like being in current crit except a bit more frustrating.

Being in a coma is pretty much being in crit as it is now. You're fucked. Death soon follows.

--------

body parts all track states independently and is meant to be kind of intuitive.

what state you experience is determined by a few things.

you always experience the worst state possible. The worst state is determined, in order of priority

>HEAD
>AVERAGE of TORSO and GROIN
>AVERAGE OF ALL FOUR LIMBS

so if your torso got shrekt by revolver bullets and is now in a severely fucked situation, you are now experiencing the severely fucked state. If you got an esword in the face multiple times, and your face is now in a coma state, you are now in a coma. On the flip side, if your left leg took several laser hits and is now in a severely fucked state but the average of all four of your limbs is only an injured state of fine, you're still okay.
,
--------

some weapons will probably be buffed.

revolvers will do more than sixty damage now, so shots might take someone from fine to severely fucked instantly.

--------

improvised first aid and some chems should probably remove negative effects from states. You'll still be injured, you just don't drop things or walk a bit faster. Things like metal rods and cable coils could make splints to make injured people walk with less of a slowdown, bedsheets or other cloth items cut into rags could form bandages or slings and make people drop items less.

Surgery will play a bigger role, during the severely fucked and inna coma states. There would be different surgeries for bruise and burn damage, and possibly for each body part. A few new items would probably need to be made, like bone gel. Synth-meat might have a surgical use now, in replacing broken tissue. Surgeries that heal bruise or burn damage would do so really fantastically- completely healing burn or bruise damage. For a competent doctor, it should also take a fraction of the time it takes to put someone in cryo, even with a good mix, if the doctor is fast at clicking.

Clone and oxyloss damage would stay the same.

Toxins damage might have it's own universal state of fine, fucked, severely fucked, coma and dead.

Fine and fucked for toxins should be treatable with chems, severely fucked treated slowly with chems, and coma/dead should probably take some sort of stomach pumping surgery to fix. You might need to remove the stomach, wash it in a sink and put it back in or something.

---------


I should add that from fucked onwards, you start taking brute damage slowly.

First aid and improvised medical help can prevent that too, so we can probably put things like wound dressings and bandaids in first aid kits instead of ointments and bruise packs.

edit

blood transfusions could be a thing too and work to prevent brute damage as well.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Guys, surgery fucking sucks. Why don't you all want to replace surgery or at least not use it? It's like the worst part of medical.

[Psyentific]

Guys, surgery fucking sucks. Why don't you all want to replace surgery or at least not use it? It's like the worst part of medical.

Because surgery is a detailed, pre-existing system with makeshift equivalents that is almost never used. The solution to something like this not being used is not to remove it - It's to give it a use.

No, appendix sandwiches are not a use.