/tg/Station 13

i'm not sure why we don't have antag huds for observing players but its a feature that exists for admins considering it doesnt actually do much to enable meta
people who are going to meta with their buddies as an observer arnt going to be dissuaded just because they dont have instant access to who are the antags, they can find out the information almost immediately anyway
heres a list of gamemodes that almost instantly tell themselves to observers

blob: blob speak + bio hazard announcement
traitor: mixed bag, if anyone buys the radio key it's an instant tell
changeling: hivemind
traitorchan: the only truly deceitful mode for observers but you can figure it out after a couple of minutes anyway
cults: cult hivemind
nuke ops: syndicate radio + funny meme name 10/10 times that sticks out in chat
wizard: unique spawn location + funny meme name 9/10 times that sticks out in chat
gang: gang head announcements
revolution: no tell except observing flashes, but revolutions usually make themselves known within 5 minutes anyway
extended: unique centcomm announcement

you may argue that this enables metafriending observers to warn their living friend of incoming danger as it shows up on their screen, and you would be somewhat right. it would make it easier, but odds are the observer would probably know of the majority of threats in most situations by other players dying by that point or just by observing and witnessing antaggery anyway, not to mention the point hardly applies to any mode that isnt traitor.
also: i doubt theres like anyone who goes out of their way to OBSERVE for a friend on the server and warn them of danger.

please just make the observer life easier so i can orbit people who are actually going to affect the round


bonus round: you could even give it to dead players if it turns off their ability to be cloned (like every other server with this feature does)

Terrible idea, we don't need every cloned chucklefuck knowing every antag.

>observer

bay has it
and even they disable respawn as soon as you activate your antag hud

>Observe
>Get antag names
>Swap accounts
>Join as sec
>"Stumble" on them doing antag stuff
>Dunk everyone

>observe
>get antag names
>swap accounts
>get banned for having the same ip on at the same time

alternately

>observe
>get antag names
>swap accounts
>dunk traitors
>get banned for blatantly obvious metagaming

There's zero need for this whatsoever and so many compelling reasons not to have it.

i'm not seeing many compelling reasons not to have it whilst having it would greatly enhance the observing experience

edit: an antag hud hardly enables any of your compelling reasons harder than just having the intent to metagame in the first place, as i highlighted in the OP

I'd like to know the many compelling reasons against it, since so far it's all about the possibility of metagame which already exists, and is bannable anyway.

If it stopped any possible chance of interacting with the round, then yeah it seems neat.

Otherwise no tbh

Only give it to people who observed, not ghosted

D&B wrote:If it stopped any possible chance of interacting with the round, then yeah it seems neat.

Otherwise no tbh

This! This is exactly how it is done in the other codebases which have this feature. No ghost roles allowed. Also, I am really sick of "meta" being used as an excuse to deny us the most basic of nice features. But, this is sadly a real problem, especially in this community, so I hope that no ghost roles/or at minimum no cloning is enough. The "meta" issue is only a concern in the Traitor modes (Traitor, TraitorChan, IA), Revolution, and possibly Secret Extended. Even then, many Traitors can be confirmed through ghost observations, Changelings as well.

I would at least like to give this a shot with the 'no round interaction' enabled.

I think it would be fine if it is only a option available to people who outright spectate the round and not ghost when they died, also turning on the antag hud should disable them from being able play any ghost role.

Steelpoint wrote:I think it would be fine if it is only a option available to people who outright spectate the round and not ghost when they died, also turning on the antag hud should disable them from being able play any ghost role.

There is no need to differentiate observers and ghosts, if you restrict them from rejoining the round in any fashion. It does not matter if you know the antag status of the guy that killed you; You cannot return to the round at all if you enable AntagHUD.

>one guy enables antag hud and tells everyone else what's up
>they can all get cloned, play ghost roles, etc, first dude can't

So why does one guy get punished and everyone else gets off free and clear when they can all do the same thing?

Either way I do like the idea of a antag hud for observers. We already ban for metagaming, not to mention half the fun of observing is to observe the antagonists.

MisterPerson wrote:>one guy enables antag hud and tells everyone else what's up
>they can all get cloned, play ghost roles, etc, first dude can't

So why does one guy get punished and everyone else gets off free and clear when they can all do the same thing?

>one guy enables his eyeballs and reads the chat and just generally looks at his screen and tells everyone whats up
>he gets cloned and so does everyone else

hmm

They shouldn't be able to be cloned, ghost roles, or anything like that. And there's still the issue that they can just tell everyone else in deadchat who the antagonists are, but if you observe long enough or just watch the chat you can find it anyway.

You can already identify almost every antag type immediately without any kind of HUD. Changeling and Cult have some very obvious chatter. Traitors tend to use the Syndicate radio channel. Rev and gang are a little less obvious, but as soon as the first head dies or graffiti shows up, it is once again obvious. Wizard/Ops you just simply jump to their bases at roundstart.

The conclusion last time was the same as it will be this time. People will scream "BUT META!", others will point out how its already possible to meta more than enough to ruin a round, then the people against Antag HUD will ignore it or say "well a HUD would make it easier so no".

You people worry way too much about this feature. Its not like metagaming is a major issue on the server currently. So many people end up as ghosts, how many of them have been banned recently for metagaming via ghost roles?

Alex Crimson wrote:You can already identify almost every antag type immediately without any kind of HUD. Changeling and Cult have some very obvious chatter. Traitors tend to use the Syndicate radio channel. Rev and gang are a little less obvious, but as soon as the first head dies or graffiti shows up, it is once again obvious. Wizard/Ops you just simply jump to their bases at roundstart.

The conclusion last time was the same as it will be this time. People will scream "BUT META!", others will point out how its already possible to meta more than enough to ruin a round, then the people against Antag HUD will ignore it or say "well a HUD would make it easier so no".

You people worry way too much about this feature. Its not like metagaming is a major issue on the server currently. So many people end up as ghosts, how many of them have been banned recently for metagaming via ghost roles?

This is what I was trying to get at. Antag HUD doesn't matter for metagaming and a noclone/noghostrole blocker is unnecessary.

I think a antag hud as is would be fine for anyone to have.

Oh shit! Don't you realize? Someone COULD sign up on a backup account and then kill all the antags on their main! I mean we already ban for multikeying and this goes TOO FAR!

MUST STOP IT. DO NOT LET THIS PASS

The Clowns Pocket wrote:Oh shit! Don't you realize? Someone COULD sign up on a backup account and then kill all the antags on their main! I mean we already ban for multikeying and this goes TOO FAR!

MUST STOP IT. DO NOT LET THIS PASS

thanks for your contribution

I figure it couldn't hurt - people always figure out who the antags are anyways, maybe it would even make it easier to find the obvious metagamers

That's actually a good point. There are oft times where deadchat is left wondering, more so on low pop, if someone is really a antag or is just some shitter going on a spree.

I just think there are a lot of benefits to this with few, if any, drawbacks.

Hell, I'd propose it the change. But the change seems it'll be a bit more complicated than moving code around.

I'd be tentatively for this on the basis that it makes you uncloneable.

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:I'd be tentatively for this on the basis that it makes you uncloneable.

kinda worthless to have this, someone can turn it on and confirm "yeah X and Y are antag" in deadchat

Log when someone turns it on so you have confirmation if you suspect meta. No need to make them unclonable or anything, just if they pop out of the cloner and then proceed to go dunking anyone other than the person that killed them the admins can check whether they were using it or not.

If observers knew for sure who the antags were there would be more adminhelps during the round instead of after

tbh it would be a lot easier to spot nonantag griffins that way, just by the sheer number of eyes on everyone.

I personally am not a fan of an antag hud for observers. It creates more problems than it addresses.

Krusvik wrote:I personally am not a fan of an antag hud for observers. It creates more problems than it addresses.

this

why do you need to know all antags? generally if you want to know if one person is an antag you can just ask in deadchat or even just watch them a little bit

PKPenguin321 wrote:

Krusvik wrote:I personally am not a fan of an antag hud for observers. It creates more problems than it addresses.

this

why do you need to know all antags? generally if you want to know if one person is an antag you can just ask in deadchat or even just watch them a little bit

I thought this too, but

Screemonster wrote:Log when someone turns it on so you have confirmation if you suspect meta.

and

Lazengann wrote:If observers knew for sure who the antags were there would be more adminhelps during the round instead of after

have me convinced it's worth a shot

PKPenguin321 wrote:

Krusvik wrote:I personally am not a fan of an antag hud for observers. It creates more problems than it addresses.

this

why do you need to know all antags? generally if you want to know if one person is an antag you can just ask in deadchat or even just watch them a little bit

If its so easy to find antags then why do you have an issue with a HUD? Id love to know what these problems are, because you two stated none of them.

Alex Crimson wrote:

PKPenguin321 wrote:

Krusvik wrote:I personally am not a fan of an antag hud for observers. It creates more problems than it addresses.

this

why do you need to know all antags? generally if you want to know if one person is an antag you can just ask in deadchat or even just watch them a little bit

If its so easy to find antags then why do you have an issue with a HUD? Id love to know what these problems are, because you two stated none of them.

because having to ask isn't the same thing as just instantly knowing, and by definition isn't as easy. not sure why you think that is an appropriate comparison. completely stealthy ones that not even ghosts know about have no reason to be outed to those ghosts who can potentially come back and fuck with them, for example

Then why was the observe HUD function added? That can be used to reveal antags via checking their inventory. It even shows if they are a ling. If someone is metagaming, just ban them. I have no doubt people would indeed abuse the HUD, but people find a way to abuse everything in this game. Using the most extreme example of abuse isnt a valid enough reason to prevent adding a very nice feature. Chances are metagaming will come up very rarely.

Alex Crimson wrote:Then why was the observe HUD function added? That can be used to reveal antags via checking their inventory. It even shows if they are a ling. If someone is metagaming, just ban them. I have no doubt people would indeed abuse the HUD, but people find a way to abuse everything in this game. Using the most extreme example of abuse isnt a valid enough reason to prevent adding a very nice feature. Chances are metagaming will come up very rarely.

This requires knowing who to observe in the first place, which is again a false comparison to the HuD

I had an interesting idea.
What if, ghosts that have enabled antag hud cannot be seen or heard by ghosts who haven't.

You could have your precious hud, but be completely unable to interact with people who haven't turned it on.

No it doesnt. You just observe anyone slightly suspicious. Usually when someone isnt doing their job it means they are an antag. Hell, half the time admins tell you who the antags are if you just ask in deadchat. Observing their HUD increases the chances of metagaming, so by your logic it must totally be bad, and im sure the metagaming bans have increased dramatically since it was added, no?

As for separating the deadchats, that would be fine. However half the fun of observing is discussing the round with others. Although, if thats what it takes to get the HUD added, id be fine with it. It would be completely optional after all.

Worst case is it allows people to meta antags easier, but in that case you can just ban people. If someone is shitty enough to metagame like that, then they would find a way to do it regardless of the HUD being available or not.

Alex Crimson wrote:Usually when someone isnt doing their job it means they are an antag.

hmm

Tell me what kind of Miner hangs around in maint? Or Scientist checking dorm rooms. Obviously IC its not enough to just kill someone over, but as a ghost its worth observing them to check their items/HUD for antag business.

I like to bring up goonstation ideas but they sometimes have good ones.

They have a DNR button that basically makes you uncloneable by any method, if something similar was added to /tg/ code and it also restricted you from taking on ghost roles then you could pin an antaghud to it.

as for the metacomms issue, there is literally nothing stopping someone from doing the multiple account thing now, as you get to see all of chat anyway so it is easy to see who antags are. antaghud just makes it easier to follow fights during cult rounds and you can follow interesting people easier.

Kel wrote:

MisterPerson wrote:>one guy enables antag hud and tells everyone else what's up
>they can all get cloned, play ghost roles, etc, first dude can't

So why does one guy get punished and everyone else gets off free and clear when they can all do the same thing?

>one guy enables his eyeballs and reads the chat and just generally looks at his screen and tells everyone whats up
>he gets cloned and so does everyone else

hmm

One of these provides perfect information. One provides player observations. There have been plenty of cases where ghosts thought they were following an antag and got it wrong. Giving every ghost, even roundstart observers, an antag hud is just making it 100% easier to always get those valids.

Does it matter is they are wrong? the player who believes they are right, in your scenario, will still get cloned and go kill the guy. Only difference is that the guy happens to be innocent rather than an antag. Eitehr way its a bannable offense and as far as i know, nowhere near as serious an issue as you make it out to be.

Yes it makes finding antags easier. Thats the whole point. However, will it cause enough grief to justify not having it? I very much doubt it.

Alex Crimson wrote:Does it matter is they are wrong? the player who believes they are right, in your scenario, will still get cloned and go kill the guy. Only difference is that the guy happens to be innocent rather than an antag. Eitehr way its a bannable offense and as far as i know, nowhere near as serious an issue as you make it out to be.

Yes it makes finding antags easier. Thats the whole point. However, will it cause enough grief to justify not having it? I very much doubt it.

The burden is on the party that wants it added, not the party that doesn't so your question is backwards. Will this add sufficiently to the gameplay experience as a whole to justify the grief it will cause?

What kind of proof do you want? I cannot exactly pull up the stats of something that hasnt even been implemented. I cannot see the future and tell you that the HUD would absolutely not increase instances of metagaming, or at least not to the point where it would be considered an issue. Much like the Observe HUD feature we have now, it would be a nice thing for ghosts to have. As far as i know, other servers still use this feature, but i personally have not played on Bay/Goon in a long time so i cannot tell you if its a problem for them.

The only way forward at this point, instead of arguing back and forth about matters that could turn out completely different to what we think, is to test merge it and see how it goes.

I mean I expect to see a sharp rise in "random searches" of departments containing antags of this if this gets added in. As an admin, I have an antaghug when monitoring a round as well as a list of antags and it's very common for there to be low-key traitors being completely inconspicious in a backroom. The reason people think "All traitors are easy to spot I see them all the time" is because generally the quiet subtle traitors never get caught and arent noticed at round-end, so the ghosts congratulate themselves on knowing that the guy gunning people down with a revolver was a traitor.

Adding this is fairly likely to result in more of these low-level antags preparing something long-term in their office or working towards a specific goal getting stunned for "suspiscious behaviour", searched, antag kit found, executed.

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:I mean I expect to see a sharp rise in "random searches" of departments containing antags of this if this gets added in. As an admin, I have an antaghug when monitoring a round as well as a list of antags and it's very common for there to be low-key traitors being completely inconspicious in a backroom. The reason people think "All traitors are easy to spot I see them all the time" is because generally the quiet subtle traitors never get caught and arent noticed at round-end, so the ghosts congratulate themselves on knowing that the guy gunning people down with a revolver was a traitor.

Adding this is fairly likely to result in more of these low-level antags preparing something long-term in their office or working towards a specific goal getting stunned for "suspiscious behaviour", searched, antag kit found, executed.

Then the traitor ahelps for the "random" search, logs show that the searcher activated Antag HUD before getting cloned, and he doesn't give a good explaination for the search.

If you still want to avoid these cases, preventing revival after activating antagHUD should solve this.
Someone asking antagHUDers who the secret valids are in ghostchat is pretty noticeable. Plus, if the traitors are lowkey they'll likely be boring to watch and talk about, so ghosts will still crowd towards the current murderboner.

XDTM wrote: Then the traitor ahelps for the "random" search, logs show that the searcher activated Antag HUD before getting cloned, and he doesn't give a good explaination for the search.

Sounds like we're just adding a new way for people to get banned.

cedarbridge wrote:

XDTM wrote: Then the traitor ahelps for the "random" search, logs show that the searcher activated Antag HUD before getting cloned, and he doesn't give a good explaination for the search.

Sounds like we're just adding a new way for people to get banned.

XDTM wrote:If you still want to avoid these cases, preventing revival after activating antagHUD should solve this.
Someone asking antagHUDers who the secret valids are in ghostchat is pretty noticeable. Plus, if the traitors are lowkey they'll likely be boring to watch and talk about, so ghosts will still crowd towards the current murderboner.

cedarbridge wrote:

XDTM wrote: Then the traitor ahelps for the "random" search, logs show that the searcher activated Antag HUD before getting cloned, and he doesn't give a good explaination for the search.

Sounds like we're just adding a new way for people to get banned.

we should add ban bait in the code more often tbh :^)