Toxins and Bombs Rework

[BeeSting12]

Let's be honest, traitors getting a bomb which takes 20 minutes to completely fix the damage, if it's possible at all- some stuff is irreplaceable-, is shit. Especially within five minutes of roundstart. "Alright guys, let's have a nice roun-" *boom* "welp, im gonna be fixing this my whole round and the shuttle will be called in ten minutes anyway so fuck it may as well suicide." Another issue is toxins maxcaps- they can be made immediately, roundstart, and within five to ten minutes, toxins can blow up an entire department and basically every important place onstation beyond repair.

There's several ways to fix this, one of which is changing the way toxins, the actual making of bombs, works- not an entirely bad idea, but not something I feel like doing especially since I don't understand atmos that well. Another one is making fixing breaches easier, which I might go into a bit in this thread, but I think we've made the process easy enough with engineering's roundstart RCDs, RCLs, RPDs, other things that begin with an R... The one I want to change is the way toxins bombs especially detonate.

Here's how it would work:
1. Toxins gets their two tanks, like normal.
2a. Scientist puts each tank into a bomb core assembly kit, which makes a bomb core similar to the one pulled out of Syndicate bombs, except this one's explosion is based on the stats from the tanks put into the core.
2b. Bomb cores can be unscrewed to take tanks out.
2c. Bomb core assembly kits can have a tech requirement. Not necessary though.(Possibly plasma/engineering?)
3. Bomb core goes into bomb casing, or whatever they're called. These are made from plasteel, so they're craftable roundstart.
4. Close casing up, boom(maybe literally), bomb done.
5. Set as per a usual Syndicate bomb. Or put remote signallers on the wires.

Here's what this actually changes:
a. Bombs will have an actual reaction time to allow people to respond and defuse, an underused mechanic for its coolness, unless they attach a remote signaller or other detonation thing to a wire. (which the scientist would have to learn)
b. This kills voice analyzer bombs on your person or using maxcaps as grenades. (throwing and running)
c. No more implanted bombs as well. Grenades can still serve both b's and this one's function though.
d. There will be a mining requirement to get a good number of bombs. Science starts with plasteel, some in EVA and aux storage, but you'll either have to steal it or get some from mining.

Balance Considerations:
1. Bomb cores exploding due to another explosion will have to be removed as that will defeat the point of this change.
2. Obviously a nerf to toxins. A nerf that's long been needed in my opinion.
3. There's probably more, I don't tend to think about ALL the ways a change can affect something.
4. Syndicate bombs would be slightly more useful as they're now essentially on the same level as toxins, except smaller.

Other Suggested Changes:
*Engineering Change, unrelated to the above: Goggles that let you see the wires and pipes at roundstart condition as a template to fix breaches with. This is already a feature on the station blueprints, it could be added to engineering or again gated behind research. I'd support the former a bit more. I'd also be willing to code these myself since it would be as simple as adding the new goggles with a new sprite and applying the same overlay the blueprints have.
*TTVs would remain in cargo for those who want to go the effort to get it. (Gated behind time plus a paper trail.)
*TTVs could also be a scientist traitor only item although I'd rather not do that as that defeats the point of having player interaction to get big booms.

Thanks for reading, sorry if it's kind of wall-of-texty, I attempted to format it well.

[TribeOfBeavers]

I might be reading it wrong, but what your saying is to basically merge toxins and syndicate bombs (in terms of how they detonate), correct?

Simply making the current TTV bombs too big to fit into backpacks might be wotth considering as well. I think its just one line of code, and fixes some of the things you mentioned.

However, none of these change the speed at which maxcaps can be made which I feel might be a bigger problem. Bombing half the station 5 minutes in is a bit too quick.

[BeeSting12]

I might be reading it wrong, but what your saying is to basically merge toxins and syndicate bombs (in terms of how they detonate), correct?

Simply making the current TTV bombs too big to fit into backpacks might be wotth considering as well. I think its just one line of code, and fixes some of the things you mentioned.

However, none of these change the speed at which maxcaps can be made which I feel might be a bigger problem. Bombing half the station 5 minutes in is a bit too quick.

Yeah you read it entirely correct. That's probably the simpler solution, but I'd like to see the bomb defusal mechanic be used more often so that's why I advocated for this idea.

It actually does change the speed at which they can be mass produced because bomb casings, which are already craftable, I think, are made with plasteel, which is found in either EVA, aux base, engineering, or in short supply in robotics. They have to wait for mining to make all six maxcaps giving security time to catch them before they cause too much damage. It's really moreso about giving the station a chance against the scientist blowing them up, meanwhile still making it possible to blow the station up like that.

The probably best way to stop five minute maxcaps is remove the freezer from toxins and force them to use atmos' freezer and the burn chamber or make their own. (Or go into RND server room and take that one...)

edit: Forgot to mention, we can make bomb core kits have a tech and material requirement to make and put a limited amount in science roundstart. I'm not sure if that's actually a good idea though, probably baby steps first.

[ShadowDimentio]

This again?

Bombs are fine.

[kevinz000]

This again?

Bombs are fine.

5 minutes to end round is not fine.

[Nilons]

This again?

Bombs are fine.

Do you even play this game

5 minute rounds are not fine

[FantasticFwoosh]

The new adjustable toxin bombs (maybe using the plasteel bombs as a base) should be adjustable using RnD tech to have different modes of firing, rather than souped up grenades, working off what i skim read of the OP which is similar.

A bomberman esque straight vertical and diagonal line forming a cross for instance would be VERY good for mining if it carried further than a AOE blast to make linear mineshafts.

[InsaneHyena]

How about no?

[Incomptinence]

Faster fixing is the solution. Lattices were a mistake, we need cable layers to enter common use and we need a pipe layer even if it only does straight lines (so much of the pipe network is straight lines outside of atmos).

Maybe make apcs, grills + glass and basic walls build faster since only rwalls and sealed airlocks are the only obstacles with actual grief potential against anyone smart enough to carry basic tools.

Edit: Oh and we have smart metal foam now, try it out I guess. Smart foam and ghetto craftable cable layers should make patching most things except the pipes, doors and apcs a breeze.

Oh and I forgot the rapid piping device and rcd which while not as quick working as a cable layer are still pretty alright and at least should make stuff less of a pain.

If cargo and chemistry work together to equip randoms with smart foam grenades, rcds (also as the payment), rpds, cable layers and some material for odds and ends turning foam into proper plating etc you could randomly (probably off breaking into places with their new rcd) distribute bomb hole plugging people about the station to fuck the I DID BAWMBS WE LEAVE meta over pretty hard no research required. That just leaves complex machines and apcs to be replaced really.

[XDTM]

Add a circuit printer and a stock parts machine to engineering and they can replace machinery as well

[Oldman Robustin]

This again?

Bombs are fine.

5 minutes to end round is not fine.

Big if true.

But seriously I almost never see TTV spam, since I came back I haven't seen it happen once.

Until it becomes a problem, this just becomes another unnecessary toxins intervention.

In the last 2 years bombs have become universally weaker and repairs have grown simpler than ever, even now I've got an engineering vehicle on Github that would do wonders for simplifying bomb repairs.

[BeeSting12]

How about no?

Thanks for your valuable constructive criticism.

The new adjustable toxin bombs (maybe using the plasteel bombs as a base) should be adjustable using RnD tech to have different modes of firing, rather than souped up grenades, working off what i skim read of the OP which is similar.

A bomberman esque straight vertical and diagonal line forming a cross for instance would be VERY good for mining if it carried further than a AOE blast to make linear mineshafts.

This is a pretty good idea. Make additional bomb core kits than can "focus" the explosion in one direction. Adjust the way it's focused via a wrench.

This again?

Bombs are fine.

My main issues right now with toxins bombs are:
1. They're low effort. Know the five minute formula to make one, take a few rounds to practice, and you can easily essentially end a round within ten minutes of roundstart. This is unhealthy for the game for obvious reasons.
2. They require zero departmental cooperation. This is part of the cause of #1, but bombs don't need help from anyone unless the map does not have a freezer or you need more than six. With my suggested changes, it would take mining to assist in making any large number of bombs after the roundstart plasteel is exhausted, or just hack EVA or whatever to get more bomb casings.

This change wouldn't mess with the way the actual atmos works to make the bomb. It just changes the way it detonates and gives grenades more of a use than they have right now- Instead of holding six maxcaps in your bag, it's only plausible to hold one, which must be pulled, or hold the tools/materials to construct them on site. This would also mean people who notice the beeping have a chance at bomb defusal- Which has a chance to blow up anyway if you cut the wrong wires. There are still ways to make the bomb blow up before the timer on the casing. Intelligently placing remote signallers or timers can do this.

Add a circuit printer and a stock parts machine to engineering and they can replace machinery as well

Feel like this goes too much into science's territory. The tech storage contains boards to most important machines and the autolathe can be used for basic stock parts- sci can print more.

Faster fixing is the solution. Lattices were a mistake, we need cable layers to enter common use and we need a pipe layer even if it only does straight lines (so much of the pipe network is straight lines outside of atmos).

Maybe make apcs, grills + glass and basic walls build faster since only rwalls and sealed airlocks are the only obstacles with actual grief potential against anyone smart enough to carry basic tools.

Edit: Oh and we have smart metal foam now, try it out I guess. Smart foam and ghetto craftable cable layers should make patching most things except the pipes, doors and apcs a breeze.

Oh and I forgot the rapid piping device and rcd which while not as quick working as a cable layer are still pretty alright and at least should make stuff less of a pain.

If cargo and chemistry work together to equip randoms with smart foam grenades, rcds (also as the payment), rpds, cable layers and some material for odds and ends turning foam into proper plating etc you could randomly (probably off breaking into places with their new rcd) distribute bomb hole plugging people about the station to fuck the I DID BAWMBS WE LEAVE meta over pretty hard no research required. That just leaves complex machines and apcs to be replaced really.

The issue with making walls build faster is that if they build fast enough, people can just slap one down and stop pursuers. I think lattices are pretty much here to stay, but a pipe layer/making the cablelayer more widespread are both good ideas. Engineering is in a relatively good place for fixing breaches if the engineers are relatively competent and understand how to utilize the tools given to them. The one thing I would like to see added is the thing I mentioned in the OP, the blueprint goggles, which would give an overlay similar to station blueprints of piping/cable layouts at roundstart condition.

[BeeSting12]

This again?

Bombs are fine.

5 minutes to end round is not fine.

Big if true.

But seriously I almost never see TTV spam, since I came back I haven't seen it happen once.

Until it becomes a problem, this just becomes another unnecessary toxins intervention.

In the last 2 years bombs have become universally weaker and repairs have grown simpler than ever, even now I've got an engineering vehicle on Github that would do wonders for simplifying bomb repairs.

Doubleposting, but TTV spam isn't so much of an issue on solo antagonist rounds, though it does happen, as on team antagonist rounds. Ten minutes isn't very much time. I've seen cults and revs not be outed by then, and being able to do that sort of thing within ten minutes of roundstart is unfun and unhealthy for the game if you ask me.

[Yakumo_Chen]

Love it. Toxins is low effort and every time I see toxins being done or certain people on the science teak I cringe because I know I'm going to have to play Science Warden all round and stare at a camera console looking at toxins all round or risk the station blowing up. It'd a shitty and non interactive way of tatoring and the payoff has done thousands of times before.

"Oh I spent 10 minutes in a room by myself where nobody else has a reason to go since shift start guess I have free reign to end the round" is not a healthy way to play the game.

[BeeSting12]

Problem is, I need someone interested in coding this. I'd ask kevinz but he's busy enough with techwebs. I might be able to figure it out, but I haven't had much time lately and the time I do have I spend on other games since I just wanna relax in my off time for now.