How do we stop latejoiners from ruining everything?

onleavedontatme · Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:49 pm

It messes up the scaling in modes pretty badly when a bunch of people avoid readying up and then immediately join the round. Prevents some of the high pop modes running as well

Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:57 pm

Some ideas:

1. Incentivise joining roundstart somehow. Maybe a cosmetic bonus thing for playing enough rounds from start to finish?

2. Scale based off people in the lobby (could cause the opposite issue + observers would throw it off)

3. Wait to choose the gamemode until a few minutes into the round (problems with new clock cult and nuke ops though).

4. Have gamemodes dynamically scale in some fashion. Like late joiners are sometimes cultists or whatever.

I often latejoin because I like to pick a role that the station still needs instead of ending up as the 4th scientist when we have no engineers. I'm not sure how to fix that particular problem though.

Iatots · Post by **Iatots** » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:11 pm #344980

A lot of people latejoin to fill in the gaps. The only way to remove that is a more in-depth preference setting but I have no idea how to implement it. Once that's in, making people unable to join a round in the first 10-20 minutes could be a thing, though it would be prudent to first check the time distribution of latejoins during the average round.

D&B · Post by **D&B** » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:41 pm #344988

Force assistant if they don't observe

captain sawrge · Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:01 pm

Is there a way to track joins up to roundstart report (or for x amount of minutes, idk) and then choose & declare antags like 3-5 minutes into the round to adjust for scaling?

For Nuke, maybe give extra TCs based on the amount of latejoins up to a certain point.

For CC (I don't actually know how new CC works) maybe have a couple of the latejoins spawn as CCs instead of actually joining in

Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:42 pm

This can be sovled with data collection. Probably the only thing you can do is take 2 weeks of data and figure out the mean latejoin to population ratio to get an idea of how much of the server will late join at a given population. Then you can get an accurate estimate of how much of the server is actually going to be playing a round at given time.

Not that hard.

ShadowDimentio · Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:19 pm

People actually do this? I don't believe it. People are crazy into rolling for antag, not joining at roundstart exponentially reduces the odds of rolling antag.

Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:20 pm

ShadowDimentio wrote:People actually do this? I don't believe it. People are crazy into rolling for antag, not joining at roundstart exponentially reduces the odds of rolling antag.

Plenty of people play the game with antags disabled.

Post by **Thunder11** » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:23 pm #345020

Latejoining also greatly reduces the chances of being someone's target.

Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:51 am

Thunder11 wrote:Latejoining also greatly reduces the chances of being someone's target.

I mean, late joiners also don't get a chance at being antag, from what I can tell. I'm not sure about this.

Lazengann · Post by **Lazengann** » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:11 am #345065

Latejoiners can be traitors at least

Post by **Cobby** » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:01 am #345077

Cult is easy, just have people join in as cultists.

Ops is where it gets tricky and I think an ok solution would be to give TCs per each incoming late-joiner. Eventually you'll have enough for a recruit

For pop-regulated gamemodes, people should be able to start a vote if in the lobby to give normal highpop chances that doesn't count abstains as no :^).

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:06 am #345116

Make it that for the first twenty minutes of the round, no job slots are open to anyone at all except for certain low level civilian jobs like the Janitor or Chaplain. Or only spawn as a sub-Assistant with less access and no antag possibilities.

Ispiria · Post by **Ispiria** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:12 am #345363

I can't speak for everyone else who's guilty of this, but the primary reason I latejoin every single round, usually fast enough to be on the first inbound flight, is because I hate being the target of antag roles I never even play.

A solution for this I guess, is maybe if someone doesn't have a certain antag role ticked they can't themselves be the target of that antag? Since a latejoin warden won't be the target of a cult anyway I can't really see it being a problem if the warden simply isn't made a target at round start if she has cult disabled, for example. Maybe this would be a little unfair to the antags who would otherwise have gotten a round start target who does have the antag enabled but just didn't win the warden roll?

Obviously something like this wouldn't apply to stuff like revs, where even a latejoin CMO will be a target, but it'd definitely be a major bolster to my personal willingness to roundstart if I knew the traitors I never play as weren't going to be gunning specifically for me.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:01 am #345374

Disable late join and observer for the first 5 minutes.

Ispiria · Post by **Ispiria** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:22 am #345381

iamgoofball wrote:Disable late join and observer for the first 5 minutes.

So I'll wait five minutes, and then join.

This wouldn't really solve the problem, it'd just create an artificial delay on it that would have only the barest chance of affecting change in people with next to zero patience.

Nilons · Post by **Nilons** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:35 am #345384

Ispiria wrote:I can't speak for everyone else who's guilty of this, but the primary reason I latejoin every single round, usually fast enough to be on the first inbound flight, is because I hate being the target of antag roles I never even play.

A solution for this I guess, is maybe if someone doesn't have a certain antag role ticked they can't themselves be the target of that antag? Since a latejoin warden won't be the target of a cult anyway I can't really see it being a problem if the warden simply isn't made a target at round start if she has cult disabled, for example. Maybe this would be a little unfair to the antags who would otherwise have gotten a round start target who does have the antag enabled but just didn't win the warden roll?

Obviously something like this wouldn't apply to stuff like revs, where even a latejoin CMO will be a target, but it'd definitely be a major bolster to my personal willingness to roundstart if I knew the traitors I never play as weren't going to be gunning specifically for me.

Why should everyone else have a higher chance of being a cult target, why should you get to skip the chance while everyone else accepts it as part of the game

Ispiria · Post by **Ispiria** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:49 am #345387

Nilons wrote:
Ispiria wrote:snip
Why should everyone else have a higher chance of being a cult target, why should you get to skip the chance while everyone else accepts it as part of the game

It's not really about "getting to" or anything that might serve as a means of guilt tripping myself or the others who deliberately latejoin, it's about how to solve the problem of balance issues this behavior creates.

If enough people are latejoining - and apparently, since this thread exists, they are - that it's having a detrimental effect on the balancing of gamemode selection, then a solution needs to be found that goes a little beyond "suck it up and don't latejoin" because that isn't going to work.

A good place to start looking for solutions is identifying the reasons people have for latejoining in the first place and addressing whatever issues they have that inspires this behavior, and shaming those who willingly offer their reasons isn't really going to help.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:11 am #345388

How about delaying antag objective assignment for a few minutes into the round?

Lazengann · Post by **Lazengann** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:12 am #345394

Make latejoiners more likely to be targets

Ispiria · Post by **Ispiria** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:43 am #345398

Steelpoint wrote:How about delaying antag objective assignment for a few minutes into the round?

Ispiria wrote:So I'll wait five minutes, and then join.

Attacking the people perpetrating this behavior and trying to force them into a position they're already taking the extra time necessary to avoid isn't a productive solution to the problem.

The only way to solve this will be identifying what issues cause players to latejoin in the first place and addressing the issues, not the players. You're never going to be able to find a way to convince people to do something in a game they've decided not to do.

edit: Since this is a topic I'm actually personally invested in I just want to go on record as saying, I do really want to help find a solution - I hate missing out on my favorite roles because someone else got it at roundstart, but I also don't complain because that's the sacrifice I make for my (minor) added layer of self-protection.

My criticisms of the suggestions being offered are my way of showing how those particular ideas wouldn't work, not an attempt to shut down discussion altogether. Let's keep trying, though!

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:27 pm #345408

Steelpoint wrote:How about delaying antag objective assignment for a few minutes into the round?

How does this solution fix cult/ops/wizard?

Not-Dorsidarf · Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:41 pm

I like the idea of nukeops getting more TC for latejoiners than they would have gotten if those people had readied up.
I wonder how much of an incentive the knowledge that latejoiners could be buffing the antags would be for people to actually participate in roundstart?

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:49 pm #345447

We build a wall around arrivals

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:17 pm #345460

Anonmare wrote:We build a wall around arrivals

The title screen isn't sending us its best.

Durkel · Post by **Durkel** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:24 pm #345461

Finish planetstation and force fresh arrivals into the round to be the choice of already active players by either discovering their cryosleep pod in the wild or by diverting energy to wake them up from their stasis pod on the outpost. We also increase lobby time a bit to compensate those with shit connections while giving the finger to those who wait until the round starts to join to avoid being someones target. When you have an xbox hueg planet wide z-level to choose from things like tribal ghost roles should be more preferable as well since they're less likely to get fucked by a lone miner.

Spoiler:

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:05 pm #345470

We could additionally remove latejoin entirely.

lzimann · Post by **lzimann** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:06 pm #345471

Is it really a problem though? Never noticed it affecting the game in any way in years of playing.

Lazengann · Post by **Lazengann** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:07 pm #345472

Ispiria wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:How about delaying antag objective assignment for a few minutes into the round?

Ispiria wrote:So I'll wait five minutes, and then join.
Attacking the people perpetrating this behavior and trying to force them into a position they're already taking the extra time necessary to avoid isn't a productive solution to the problem.

The only way to solve this will be identifying what issues cause players to latejoin in the first place and addressing the issues, not the players. You're never going to be able to find a way to convince people to do something in a game they've decided not to do.

edit: Since this is a topic I'm actually personally invested in I just want to go on record as saying, I do really want to help find a solution - I hate missing out on my favorite roles because someone else got it at roundstart, but I also don't complain because that's the sacrifice I make for my (minor) added layer of self-protection.

My criticisms of the suggestions being offered are my way of showing how those particular ideas wouldn't work, not an attempt to shut down discussion altogether. Let's keep trying, though!

If you want to play extended why don't you play on a server that runs extended more often

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:36 pm #345478

I never paid attention to latejoiners so like leo I'm not sure how latejoiners are ruining the game. It might make highpop game modes less likely during lowpop but without access to very detailed stats, I can only anecdotally say pop fluctuations affect gamemode chances far more than latejoiners.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:38 pm #345479

it's a metagame tactic to bullshit out the antags by
1. ensuring you are less likely to be a target
2. fuck with team antags like cult/gang/nuke ops by preventing them from getting all the points they normally would

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:44 pm #345482

sometimes a latejoin is just a latejoin

one could make latejoins more likely to become targets for latejoin antags but I would rather a carrot than stick if we're going to try to change how people play the game

lzimann · Post by **lzimann** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:56 pm #345490

iamgoofball wrote:it's a metagame tactic to bullshit out the antags by
1. ensuring you are less likely to be a target
2. fuck with team antags like cult/gang/nuke ops by preventing them from getting all the points they normally would

Getting all the points? Do you mean necessary population or what? Because other than that, late joiners don't really affect team antags.

Lazengann · Post by **Lazengann** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:58 pm #345491

The amount of starting members scales with population

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:00 pm #345492

Ops TC and count scales based on pop., and cults scale starting team on pop.

Post by **Dax Dupont** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:06 pm #345495

I generally latejoin at times because I don't know what I want to play and I just look for whatever has the highest need.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:49 pm #345527

Hope you all realize that any changes here will also have knock-on effects for anyone who chooses "send me back to the lobby" when their preferred roles aren't rolled.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:57 pm #345528

cedarbridge wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:How about delaying antag objective assignment for a few minutes into the round?
How does this solution fix cult/ops/wizard?

How doesn't it?

Don't assign people to be cult/ops/wizards until later in the round

Granted, it could be more difficult to organically get the chosen people into wizard/ops roles after the round begins, but really, why can't the cult start late or someone be magically teleported to the wizard shuttle?

If you were going to make it so that ops/wizards aren't instantly given away by them teleporting off/going braindead, you could warn the player that in [time] they're going to become said antag, so they can hide or whatever

might create issues where people try to recreate the old blob gimmick of spacing the armory before you pop though

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:05 pm #345532

Old Blob was better.

cedarbridge · Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:06 pm

Qbopper wrote:might create issues where people try to recreate the old blob gimmick of spacing the armory before you pop though

Basically that. The second your genetics buddy is spirited away you suddenly get a loud and obvious hint that one of the off station roles has been triggered.
Additionally, delaying antag selection can function to nerf those antags because they won't even be selected until the station has that extra head start. This, I guess, is compensated for by the suddenly blanked roles that were originally filled by the guy who just got whisked away to become an antag. Blob is certainly improved by not resulting from somebody popping in the HoP line and nukeops/wizard etc won't be improved by drafting them from on-station crew.

ShadowDimentio · Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:16 pm

I've seen zero evidence of people latejoining on purpose to fuck over antags

TG is full of powergamers and these powergamers would never willingly give up antag rolls to try and fuck over team antags

Hathkar · Post by **Hathkar** » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:43 am #345595

Somtimes I latejoin because I want to fill a job slot that's needed, or latejoin simply because I missed the roundstart. Latejoining just to avoid being a target doesn't make much sense to me, and I have doubts that many people do so just for that.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:42 am #345704

cedarbridge wrote:
Qbopper wrote:might create issues where people try to recreate the old blob gimmick of spacing the armory before you pop though
Basically that. The second your genetics buddy is spirited away you suddenly get a loud and obvious hint that one of the off station roles has been triggered.
Additionally, delaying antag selection can function to nerf those antags because they won't even be selected until the station has that extra head start. This, I guess, is compensated for by the suddenly blanked roles that were originally filled by the guy who just got whisked away to become an antag. Blob is certainly improved by not resulting from somebody popping in the HoP line and nukeops/wizard etc won't be improved by drafting them from on-station crew.

you can do what i said and warn the guy but yeah it's not ideal

1g88a · Post by **1g88a** » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:32 am #345813

Make lavaland/other off-station spawns more accessible/apparent, this should at least help stem the tide in a scaled team antag's favor since they have little reason/means to interfere with the station directly.

Dr_bee · Post by **Dr_bee** » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:27 am #345838

I would rather err on the side of the antags and base starting stuff on total server population including observers rather than starting players.

If it becomes an issue with antags being too powerful, then reduce the rate at which they gain stuff based on population.

There is a rare case where there are significantly more observers than players, but I dont see it happening often enough to be something to worry about.

The Clowns Pocket · Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:09 pm

It's only a (potential) problem for nuke ops notably on War mode (which is supposed to have benefits and trade offs anyways). Calm down.

Edit: I never latejoin when I have the opertunity to join normally because there's a greater chance on being an antag on roundstart then if you join late. You're kinda giving up that oppertunity if you just want to fob in late

Post by **Cyberboss** » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:23 pm #345899

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/31560

Iatots · Post by **Iatots** » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:03 pm #345909

Does that pull make roundstart antags unable to be targeted by latejoiner antags as long as living latejoined loyalists are present?

I know I am kinda splitting hairs here, but unless we get some hard data on latejoining distribution this whole thread is splitting hairs.

Post by **Cobby** » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:42 pm #345926

Iatots wrote:Does that pull make roundstart antags unable to be targeted by latejoiner antags as long as living latejoined loyalists are present?

I know I am kinda splitting hairs here, but unless we get some hard data on latejoining distribution this whole thread is splitting hairs.

Pardon?

All it does is give higher chances for latejoin antags to get latejoin targets.

Hathkar · Post by **Hathkar** » Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:23 pm #345939

Are latejoin antags actually a thing? I keep hearing about them, but have never gotten to be one, or seen one.