Should certain jobs be merged?

[Saegrimr]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Don't take my snowflake gas role from me

[TribeOfBeavers]

I don't think this is a good idea.

I like to be able to choose what role I'm signing up for. It's already annoying that if I feel like doing xenobio I have to just pick scientist then roll the dice and hope I spawn in the right area/someone else doesn't want to do it. If they're separate jobs you can at least have it kick you back to the menu if you don't get what you're looking for.

For doctors/chemists all that would happen is that two doctors would spawn in/run to chem at roundstart and be effectively chemists for the rest of the round. Everything else would be the same (except there would be way more people with chem access).


For MDs to have more to do the medical system needs to be more complex, which would mean more wait time for injuries to be fixed and a higher chance of the doctor messing something up (which I would personally like, but I don't think it would be popular with most of the server population). Our current one is about two clicks to heal almost any non-fatal injury, so pretty much anything else would have more depth.

Alternatively, new features could be added specifically for doctors. Maybe like growing/testing/harvesting specialized organs or something? I like the idea of medbay making a bunch of weird frankenstein's monster type things while they're waiting for a patient.

[cedarbridge]

That's basically it. Every time this topic comes up its a bandaid non-solution to the bigger problem. Medical as a job is uninteresting in 90% of cases because
1) Sec has better shit to worry about that policing medbay access and most CMOs don't really care.
2) Any idiot can run up to a sleeper or a cryo tube, stuff somebody in and hit all the buttons
3) Bruisepack medkits can solve literally every injury at the drop of a hat anywhere on the station.

The solution to these problems is not to just give the MDs the same job as the specialized chemists or geneticists. The solution is to make medicine more involved so that a person specialized in doing it can get involved in the process. Patients should need and want to go to medbay for healing for more than just "that's where the sleepers/medkits are."

Also, complaining that medical has nothing to do at immediate roundstart is like saying sec has nothing to do at immediate roundstart. Literally nothing happens for either of these roles until players start interacting with each other. Go talk to somebody in this game about talking to and interacting with people or play a role that doesn't require player interaction, we've got tons of those now.

[Qbopper]

The real solution to doctors job being boring is making our medical system deadlier and changing the combat system but noone wants to touch that.

there was a design doc for a medical rework floating around that sounded really good but it never came to be for some reason

[CPTANT]

Instead of talking about how medical jobs should be merged we should be talking about how to fix medical

No doctor will always be a boring shitrole without something to do when there are no patients.

The merge isn't a bandaid, the merge is the right solution that solves the role of doctor having nothing to do for most of the round.

nothing to do for most of the round? do you think doctors just sit next to a sleeper and wait for people to walk in? Sure, there are quiet parts of the round, but if you have "nothing to do for most of the round" you're just not bothering to actually play the game

letting doctors jerk off with chem machines all round isn't a solution to medical being relatively simple and boring, it's another lazy copout that takes away from the actual player interaction side of the game so that we can have even more people sit in one room all game pushing buttons

Its not a lazy copout. It is an idea that is precise and easy to implement. It increases traitor options, it DOES solve the problem of medicine being boring, because chemistry is FUN and applying what you make is FUN. making medicine harder/deadlier is a bad idea and only works on slow high RP servers.

And the "make your own fun" meme is stupid and even then the doctor job is probably the worst at actually doing that.

[cedarbridge]

Instead of talking about how medical jobs should be merged we should be talking about how to fix medical

No doctor will always be a boring shitrole without something to do when there are no patients.

The merge isn't a bandaid, the merge is the right solution that solves the role of doctor having nothing to do for most of the round.

nothing to do for most of the round? do you think doctors just sit next to a sleeper and wait for people to walk in? Sure, there are quiet parts of the round, but if you have "nothing to do for most of the round" you're just not bothering to actually play the game

letting doctors jerk off with chem machines all round isn't a solution to medical being relatively simple and boring, it's another lazy copout that takes away from the actual player interaction side of the game so that we can have even more people sit in one room all game pushing buttons

Its not a lazy copout. It is an idea that is precise and easy to implement. It increases traitor options, it DOES solve the problem of medicine being boring, because chemistry is FUN and applying what you make is FUN. making medicine harder/deadlier is a bad idea and only works on slow high RP servers.

And the "make your own fun" meme is stupid and even then the doctor job is probably the worst at actually doing that.

I like how you just keep ignoring the counterpoints to your assertions and just keep soldiering forward repeating them as though they were objectively true by nature of you saying them. Are you going to actually address those points or nah?

[CPTANT]

Instead of talking about how medical jobs should be merged we should be talking about how to fix medical

No doctor will always be a boring shitrole without something to do when there are no patients.

The merge isn't a bandaid, the merge is the right solution that solves the role of doctor having nothing to do for most of the round.

nothing to do for most of the round? do you think doctors just sit next to a sleeper and wait for people to walk in? Sure, there are quiet parts of the round, but if you have "nothing to do for most of the round" you're just not bothering to actually play the game

letting doctors jerk off with chem machines all round isn't a solution to medical being relatively simple and boring, it's another lazy copout that takes away from the actual player interaction side of the game so that we can have even more people sit in one room all game pushing buttons

Its not a lazy copout. It is an idea that is precise and easy to implement. It increases traitor options, it DOES solve the problem of medicine being boring, because chemistry is FUN and applying what you make is FUN. making medicine harder/deadlier is a bad idea and only works on slow high RP servers.

And the "make your own fun" meme is stupid and even then the doctor job is probably the worst at actually doing that.

I like how you just keep ignoring the counterpoints to your assertions and just keep soldiering forward repeating them as though they were objectively true by nature of you saying them. Are you going to actually address those points or nah?

I explained well enough why your points are weak.

Also merging the jobs doesn't prevent any rework of the medical system whatsoever. A merged doctor/chemist job would still be better in a reworked system because of the greater traitor freedom.

[D&B]

Make the medicine system and medical more overhauled and difficult.

Then add metal bats to medical lockers so doctors can make their own patients if they feel bored.

[cedarbridge]

I explained well enough why your points are weak.

No you didn't. You said that chemistry is fun. That's not an argument. That's just an observation that chemist is a fun role. Its not a reason to merge another role into it.

Botany is fun, but its not a reason to merge the chef and botany roles.
Buying stuff at cargo is (I guess) fun, but its not a reason to merge the rest of the service department into cargo.

You haven't disputed that this will change literally nothing. You'll still just have the same number of MDs at chem dispensers mindlessly clicking buttons on consoles. I mean, I get that you get bored easily if you don't have something to do immediately, but that's not a flaw in the role. Its a flaw in your attention span. Doctors heal people, people don't need healing until they're injured. If there are no injured people, they don't need doctors to heal them. They also don't need doctors to heal them if they can heal themselves. The solution to this problem is not to move one extra doctor into the chem area to play with chems, its to fix medical to make doctors matter more to the healing process and uncheck Medical Doctor if you can't handle not having a console to click on at roundstart.

[Takeguru]

Well clearly if doctors need injuries to heal

They should go make injuries happen

[Qbopper]

Its not a lazy copout. It is an idea that is precise

buzzword that doesn't actually mean anything

and easy to implement.

this is true but something being easy to add doesn't mean it's a good idea on its own

It increases traitor options,

i'd argue that finding ways to get to areas you don't have access to/use things you shouldn't be using is a key part of the gameplay for traitors

it DOES solve the problem of medicine being boring, because chemistry is FUN and applying what you make is FUN.

i know "not an argument" is a meme phrase but this is literally not an argument

how does giving doctors chemistry access fix the medical system? chemistry being fun is irrelevant, you're still using low effort chems/sleepers to fix people instantly with zero repercussions

making medicine harder/deadlier is a bad idea and only works on slow high RP servers.

it's the "high rp" strawman again, with a side of "doesn't explain why this thing is bad and just saying it's bad"

And the "make your own fun" meme is stupid and even then the doctor job is probably the worst at actually doing that.

not sure where this is coming from, you can define literally anything in ss13 as "making your own fun"

if you're talking about how I said doctors have no excuse for sitting in medbay all round, I don't mean going to the library and playing cards against humanity, I mean you can be using crew scanners/pinpointers and finding corpses/healing people outside medbay/providing on site reviving and heals if there's a threat like a blob, or like cedar said you can just deal with the fact that you're not going to be constantly in action at all times when you roll MD

are you going to reply with an actual argument or just insist you're right because chemistry is fun so therefore doctors should get chem access

[CPTANT]

Its not a lazy copout. It is an idea that is precise

buzzword that doesn't actually mean anything

and easy to implement.

this is true but something being easy to add doesn't mean it's a good idea on its own

It increases traitor options,

i'd argue that finding ways to get to areas you don't have access to/use things you shouldn't be using is a key part of the gameplay for traitors

it DOES solve the problem of medicine being boring, because chemistry is FUN and applying what you make is FUN.

i know "not an argument" is a meme phrase but this is literally not an argument

how does giving doctors chemistry access fix the medical system? chemistry being fun is irrelevant, you're still using low effort chems/sleepers to fix people instantly with zero repercussions

making medicine harder/deadlier is a bad idea and only works on slow high RP servers.

it's the "high rp" strawman again, with a side of "doesn't explain why this thing is bad and just saying it's bad"

And the "make your own fun" meme is stupid and even then the doctor job is probably the worst at actually doing that.

not sure where this is coming from, you can define literally anything in ss13 as "making your own fun"

if you're talking about how I said doctors have no excuse for sitting in medbay all round, I don't mean going to the library and playing cards against humanity, I mean you can be using crew scanners/pinpointers and finding corpses/healing people outside medbay/providing on site reviving and heals if there's a threat like a blob, or like cedar said you can just deal with the fact that you're not going to be constantly in action at all times when you roll MD

are you going to reply with an actual argument or just insist you're right because chemistry is fun so therefore doctors should get chem access

The reason it works in High RP is that in high RP the pace of the game is slow, so you have plenty of time to perform surgery or whatever on everyone that gets injured. The reason it wont work for us is because when shit gets real half the station gets shot. Having elaborate procedures for treating those injuries will just lead to everyone dying.

And the point isn't to fix the medical system with this merge, the point of this merge is to make the doctors and to a lesser extend the chemists role less shit.

Anyway I also made a thread explaining part of why the merge is a good thing 2 years ago:

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 67#p109667

[cedarbridge]

Anyway I also made a thread explaining part of why the merge is a good thing 2 years ago:

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 67#p109667

And that thread is just a rehash of the "I wish there were more traitors using chem" (there are tons), with a dash or two of "I wish viro and genetics weren't instantly outed when their sub departments do things." which is dumb. Viro is already as strong or stronger than toxins at any stage of the game with a bit more RNG-based setup time. Genetics is already apparent in what they're doing because its really obvious who a hulk is or who has genetics powers or whose stuff is on the floor next to a genetics console.

Your premise about science traitors is also wrong. The strength of a science traitor is not in that they have access to all parts of science, but rather that the departments of science are very potent. Toxins bombers are very easy to know by name because any RD or science guard doing his job KNOWS who is working toxins. That doesn't make toxins bombings less powerful and its not because he had a special toxins ID.

Again, you're failing to see that your solution to medical as a whole being badly designed (just stuff everyone into already populated subsections) does not 1) improve the subsections 2) improve the core.

This is above and beyond that it makes the CMO role even more pointless. On box, the only place a scientist cannot go is robotics. Robotics cannot access any of the labs except R&D and they can only access R&D because there is no internal door by default. The RD coordinates these sections. Similarly, the CMO has access to all parts of medical. He has the ability to physically coordinate all roles in medical via access. your proposal is to just make everyone the CMO and reduce the head role to trivia with bridge access and a target on his head for rev rounds.

Pass.

[Cobby]

Also imagine every MD having access to lethal mixes instead of 2 people with giveaway colors lol.

Good point

Good point for merging them, since more medbay traitor actions is a good thing.

Is this a serious post? Like I imagine every doctor having my deathmix and I cannot fathom that being enjoyable for anyone

[Yakumo_Chen]

I would have been for an engineer job merge since the current engine is basically just an atmos engine but now that assmos is live, I think that atmos is complicated enough that it can be its own job still

[Deitus]

DEPARTMENTAL INTERACTION SLIPPERY SLOPE REEEEEEEE

[Jacough]

Honestly I think atmos is fine as its own department. The maintenance aspect is considerably simpler and less pressuring than say, fixing massive hull breaches or setting up the engine so it's a better starting point for new players. At the same time there's still enough to do and master in the department to give veteran players to fuck around and experiment with

[Whoisthere]

How about we just make medics more useful?

Maybe make MDs more like paramedics where they're focused more on corpse/crit retrieval.
Maybe make it so that when you're bleeding and walk on your own you take brute damage/bleed out faster, so that you have to call for a MEDAC! to rollerbed you to the medbay.
Maybe give cryo/sleepers ID locks so only MDs can use the actual chems in them, so that a random nobody can only stabilize a critical patient with epineph, maybe stop bloodloss, but actual healing needs to be done by MEDAC!s, and put medkits behind real walls.
Last one sounds kind of shitty to me, but most useful for making medics relevant.

[DemonFiren]

Electrify medbay storage when?

[Nilons]

Let's just have 1 job with all access for everybody

[Qbopper]

Let's just have 1 job with all access for everybody

i thought when you picked captain it made all the other "players" npcs???

[Nilons]

Let's just have 1 job with all access for everybody

i thought when you picked captain it made all the other "players" npcs???

Hold on it doesn't?

[CPTANT]

Let's just have 1 job with all access for everybody

Lets have 9000 jobs with everyone having access to exactly one door.

Stupid hyperbole's go both ways.

[TribeOfBeavers]

Let's just have 1 job with all access for everybody

Lets have 9000 jobs with everyone having access to exactly one door.

Stupid hyperbole's go both ways.

The difference is that nobody is proposing we go in that direction. Just that we stay where we currently are.

[CPTANT]

Let's just have 1 job with all access for everybody

Lets have 9000 jobs with everyone having access to exactly one door.

Stupid hyperbole's go both ways.

The difference is that nobody is proposing we go in that direction. Just that we stay where we currently are.

The matter is that we are currently too far in that direction.

[TribeOfBeavers]

Let's just have 1 job with all access for everybody

Lets have 9000 jobs with everyone having access to exactly one door.

Stupid hyperbole's go both ways.

The difference is that nobody is proposing we go in that direction. Just that we stay where we currently are.

The matter is that we are currently too far in that direction.

Why do you think that? What would your ideal balance be?

Personally I think it's fine as we currently have it. You don't get effective all access by stealing a couple IDs from suicides, but it's also not overly restrictive. It keeps jobs distinct and adds interesting challenges to getting the things you need to be as effective as possible. The challenge becomes convincing/tricking someone else to help you instead of just "How can I get to x before someone else takes it?". Also, it's very easy to break into almost anywhere so access hardly matters at all when it comes to traitor/antag stuff from what I've seen.

It's good to have specialized jobs as it leads to increased interaction between players, and helps prevent people from just getting everything they need by themselves without ever having to talk to another player. Player interaction is what makes this game interesting and fun (for me at least), so I'm all for almost anything that encourages it.

[BeeSting12]

we should bring back that thing where everyone gets a sniper rifle for an ID

[Oldman Robustin]

I'd be against this on most counts but I gotta say atmos techs not having access to an engine based entirely on atmos mechanics is pretty frustrating. I probably watch at least 5 SM's delaminate every week as an atmos tech that I COULD have fixed but screaming for the AI to open every fucking door every 30 seconds (and the AI never figures out how to use emergency access) is just awful.

[cedarbridge]

I'd be against this on most counts but I gotta say atmos techs not having access to an engine based entirely on atmos mechanics is pretty frustrating. I probably watch at least 5 SM's delaminate every week as an atmos tech that I COULD have fixed but screaming for the AI to open every fucking door every 30 seconds (and the AI never figures out how to use emergency access) is just awful.

Though the atmos feed pipe to the engine doesn't require engineering access. The CE can pretty easily coordinate the engineers and atmos techs to set up an optimal mix through the atmos feed pipe. This was, as I understand it, by design. Atmos makes a positive contribution to the engine, engineering does the actual direct management of the engine hardware, CE makes sure atmos isn't feeding them a bullshit mix that kills everyone.

[Nilons]

I'd be against this on most counts but I gotta say atmos techs not having access to an engine based entirely on atmos mechanics is pretty frustrating. I probably watch at least 5 SM's delaminate every week as an atmos tech that I COULD have fixed but screaming for the AI to open every fucking door every 30 seconds (and the AI never figures out how to use emergency access) is just awful.

get the ai to open it once, then get gloves and youll never have to ask again

[NanookoftheNorth]

Well clearly if doctors need injuries to heal

They should go make injuries happen

I lol'd.

Personally, consolidating jobs would create more conflict and access to restricted materials. Medbay seems to be a primary example in the discussions. Chemistry would run out of energy to make chemicals with so many people running in and out. So, the people trying to do chemistry won't be able to do it.

It reminds me of nuke ops rounds where the HoP gives away all access to everyone. The captain, who has the nuke disk, might not have gotten everything he needed to survive, and the rest of the station who are there to support the captain are running around trying to murderbone at the first sight of trouble. Basically, the whole station is BOINKed because people had too much access.

Each job having certain access allows them to do that job effectively. Science is a shitshow most of the time. I always tried to do R&D, but someone ALWAYS pushes me aside to do it.