Decentralize Research

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Decentralize Research

Postby onleavedontatme » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:44 pm #355799

Deconstructing random nonsense for tech levels is replaced with the techweb, so RnD is now a passive timegate that the RD can set a queue for vs a full time job for scientists

Each department gets its own lathe which automatically gets the appropriate designs sent to it (the warden can print fancy new guns, engineering can print flightsuits or new tools or whatever, medbay gets the implants)

QM gets to view how many resources are in each lathe and decide where to send the mining hauls

Circuits replace the research lab as sciences main job where they build insane custom robots https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/32481

RnD becomes a background track of the stations progress that everyone benefits from (and maybe everyone contributes to, if we let completing tasks in various departments give boosts to the techweb). The round no longer hinges on a single room/that single room no longer has cooler stuff than everyone else within 20 minutes. Everyone gets cool stuff instead of constant wars about "RnD powercreep"

Is this back of a napkin concept worth expanding on?



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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby PKPenguin321 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:45 pm #355800

Science becomes factorio would be awesome, I know that much
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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby ShadowDimentio » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:45 pm #355801

Sounds good boss.
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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby duncathan » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:49 pm #355804

While we're at it, move toxins research to its rightful place, atmospherics. Circuits are an interesting concept - ninja suggested sharing circuits between engineering and Science. Is there some way that could be accomplished here?
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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby BeeSting12 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:50 pm #355807

I like it a lot, and duncathan's idea is good too.
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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby Atlanta-Ned » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:50 pm #355808

Barring anything else, this seems like a good solution to a sticky problem.
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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby onleavedontatme » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:51 pm #355810

duncathan wrote:While we're at it, move toxins research to its rightful place, atmospherics. Circuits are an interesting concept - ninja suggested sharing circuits between engineering and Science. Is there some way that could be accomplished here?


It would be extremely difficult to do that given those two jobs are usually mapped on opposite sides of the station from one another

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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby PKPenguin321 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:52 pm #355811

Kor wrote:
duncathan wrote:While we're at it, move toxins research to its rightful place, atmospherics. Circuits are an interesting concept - ninja suggested sharing circuits between engineering and Science. Is there some way that could be accomplished here?


It would be extremely difficult to do that given those two jobs are usually mapped on opposite sides of the station from one another

Really all they need is access to the testing launch area and some TTVs and signallers on their desk
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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby Anonmare » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:53 pm #355813

How about revamping robotics into the circuitry department and have them work with engineering? We do have an EngieSci encryption key unused in the code
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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby onleavedontatme » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:54 pm #355814

Anonmare wrote:How about revamping robotics into the circuitry department and have them work with engineering? We do have an EngieSci encryption key unused in the code


Robotics already has a solid amount of work with augments/borgs/mechs and are not a source of great controversy, they're not at the top of the list to replace or redo

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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby duncathan » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:54 pm #355815

A major change like this would be a good time to do a major remapping of Box regardless. Other maps can update themselves or fall out of rotation (maybe remap Meta too)
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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby LifeReign » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:00 pm #355818

How will mining materials be distributed in this system?
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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby onleavedontatme » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:04 pm #355821

The QM will see receive requests for materials from various departments and then send out mulebots/cargo techs to deliver them once he has decided who deserves it most.

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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby cedarbridge » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:12 pm #355829

If the plan is to make research pervasive then there needs to be some sort of way for the department getting the upgrades to interact with the process toward those upgrades. This should require the majority of the work be done by the actual science department but medical should be contributing into the pool if medical is getting the top tier upgrades to their stuff.

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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby captain sawrge » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:12 pm #355830

Kor wrote:The QM will see receive requests for materials from various departments and then send out mulebots/cargo techs to deliver them once he has decided who deserves it most.

Can't you already use the (currently never-used) request consoles for this too
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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby BeeSting12 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:13 pm #355831

I would be willing to remap metastation and boxstation's toxins to atmospherics if this is going to be a thing.
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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby naltronix » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:17 pm #355833

fund it
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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby NanookoftheNorth » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:18 pm #355834

Kor wrote:The QM will see receive requests for materials from various departments and then send out mulebots/cargo techs to deliver them once he has decided who deserves it most.

So QM now has the most important role in the station. Suddenly both the HoP line and cargo line will be full. I can't wait to bomb both lines.

I like the idea better than the current research means. However, science would need more to it than robots, BRING BACK TELESCIENCE
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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby onleavedontatme » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:26 pm #355840

cedarbridge wrote:If the plan is to make research pervasive then there needs to be some sort of way for the department getting the upgrades to interact with the process toward those upgrades. This should require the majority of the work be done by the actual science department but medical should be contributing into the pool if medical is getting the top tier upgrades to their stuff.


Medical contributes by keeping everyone alive that is their role in things. Maybe unlocking certain viruses or genetics powers could give boosts though.

captain sawrge wrote:
Kor wrote:The QM will see receive requests for materials from various departments and then send out mulebots/cargo techs to deliver them once he has decided who deserves it most.

Can't you already use the (currently never-used) request consoles for this too


Yeah, it wouldn't require any extra work other than letting the QM remotely check how much different lathes have stored in them.

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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby christ110 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:29 pm #355845

YES, BRING BACK TELESCIENCE, FUCK THESE USELESS LAUNCHPADS.

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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby captain sawrge » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:29 pm #355846

Could have the consoles show the current web and request/prioritize certain research too might be neat
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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby Wyzack » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:38 pm #355848

This is a good idea lorewise as well because it helps to justify all these other departments on a research station and spreads the love a bit

+1
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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby TribeOfBeavers » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:52 pm #355859

How do individual departments contribute to research? Do they get something like unique items/reports to give to the RD for research? Or is it just a passive thing that happens as people do research-esque stuff?

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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby onleavedontatme » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:57 pm #355869

TribeOfBeavers wrote:How do individual departments contribute to research? Do they get something like unique items/reports to give to the RD for research? Or is it just a passive thing that happens as people do research-esque stuff?


They won't in the initial version of this because I don't want to kill the project with feature creep but examples might include

-Cargo blowing cash on buying tech boosts/mining discovering tech boosts in ruins

-Medical getting boosts for discovering certain powers or viruses

-Atmospherics having target custom gas mixes like robustin suggested

-Some sort of deconstrutive analyzer knockoff in security for them to consume traitor gear for boosts

-Botany I'm sure could do plants or something

-Science will have the experimentor eventually

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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby Qbopper » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:00 pm #355873

PKPenguin321 wrote:Science becomes factorio would be awesome, I know that much


Wyzack wrote:This is a good idea lorewise as well because it helps to justify all these other departments on a research station and spreads the love a bit

+1
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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby Dr_bee » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:18 pm #355886

Side idea if this goes through, but consider decentralizing the entire science department in a way, by giving other jobs departmental versions of the labcoat.

it is a spriting thing I know, but just changing the little purple stripe on the science labcoat to other department colors would make RPing as an atmospherics scientist, or botanical researcher, or medical researcher a little easier.

Maybe add optional titles as well.

It would cement RnD as a stationwide thing and limit the actual science department to focusing on xenobiology and robotics.

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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby oranges » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:18 pm #355922

okay, why not, i'll merge it

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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby megatiger78 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:19 pm #355923

What's this?

a good idea?

outside of the bad ideas thread?

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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby Calibraptor » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:07 pm #355937

This actually sounds like a pretty fantastic idea that I wouldn't mind seeing test merged.
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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby obscolene » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:08 pm #355938

Calibraptor wrote:This actually sounds like a pretty fantastic idea that I wouldn't mind seeing test merged.
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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby kevinz000 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:40 pm #355949

Techwebs are almost done except for two compile errors.
After that we need to get integrated circuits working and somehow get a departmental lathe system that is manageable without it being who can loot cargo first.

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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby Gun Hog » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:50 pm #355954

What is the incentive for a Scientist or the RD to bother interacting with the R&D system? Do they still have access to all the current designs? Btw, if you do not add a proper distribution system for minerals, then most of the time a single department will hog the majority of them. Fun conflict for a while, but no ideal for every single round.

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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby onleavedontatme » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:00 pm #355956

Laziest way would be a quartermaster ID lock instead of science RD lock before remapping ore redemption location out of the public hallway

Also as far as departmental lathes go, do you think you could add a new var to each tech that determines which lathe it goes to?

The lathes being medical, security, robotics, engineering, supply (for mining)

I could try doing it if you dont want to though you have done a ton of work already

Gun Hog wrote:What is the incentive for a Scientist or the RD to bother interacting with the R&D system? Do they still have access to all the current designs? Btw, if you do not add a proper distribution system for minerals, then most of the time a single department will hog the majority of them. Fun conflict for a while, but no ideal for every single round.


The science department will still want to build mechs (though a regular scientist wont interact much with the techwebs). The research director probably still want to grab things from various lathes (we can give him access).

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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby TribeOfBeavers » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:07 pm #355960

You could give the QM a console that lets them see the material levels of the various lathes and the ability to send a mule bot to remotely fill them.

Makes the QM a bit more important, and allows for materials to potentially be stolen as they travel to a department. This would let antags and/or disgruntled employees sabotage the supplies of particular departments or steal the materials for themselves if they wanted.

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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby Anonmare » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:11 pm #355962

There's also the mail room. Package a crate, tag it with the scanner and send it via disposals
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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby cedarbridge » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:19 pm #355963

Kor wrote:The research director probably still want to grab things from various lathes (we can give him access).

The RD would gather the fruits of his department's labor by going to the different departments of the station where he doesn't have general access to use a lathe in those departments where he does have access?

That sounds really clunky.

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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby onleavedontatme » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:25 pm #355965

His department wont be labouring on RD anymore

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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby christ110 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:53 pm #355973

maybe we could add a special mulebot, that is specifically for hauling ores, and it automatically dumps a specified amount of ores from the orm replacement directly into the dept autolathe, so the normal crew doesnt have to deal with ores, unless you're trying to steal the ores.

then we can have the qm look at the various levels of ores, and send out mulebots on their own.

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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby onleavedontatme » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:54 pm #355974

If anyone wants to do some lazy recolours of the protolathe to make a variant for:

Supply

Medical

Engineering

Security

I'd appreciate that

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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby Gun Hog » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:01 am #355979

Kor wrote:Also as far as departmental lathes go, do you think you could add a new var to each tech that determines which lathe it goes to?

The lathes being medical, security, robotics, engineering, supply (for mining)

I could try doing it if you dont want to though you have done a ton of work already


Research designs are already separated by categories. We can divide up the accesses using that, making adjustments/new categories as needed. I.E. The "Firing Pins", "Weapons", and "Ammo" categories would be locked to Security.

Kor wrote:The science department will still want to build mechs (though a regular scientist wont interact much with the techwebs). The research director probably still want to grab things from various lathes (we can give him access).


I still have a problem with this. The Roboticists will want to build mechs, a normal Scientist will now have one less job to do. There is also talk of removing Toxins from Science and giving it to Atmos. If you are restricting or removing the protolathe as well, then you are severely diminishing what that role used to be. There will only be Xenobio left for a normal Scientist (unless the circuits thing gets in I guess). While Xenobio is loaded with plenty of content, it is at max a two person job.

The combination of restricting access to designs along with the limitations Techwebs will bring may result in those designs not being researched. Why would I care about designs other than upgraded stock parts, mech equipment, borg upgrades and gear for the miners? If by "give him access", you mean giving the RD access to other departments like the HoS has, I would recommend against it. Simply put, the Scientists would be reluctant to spend the research points on something they cannot get or use.

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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby ninjanomnom » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:06 am #355982

The project tracker can be found here:
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/projects/12

I definitely feel that whatever mapping changes we want to do should all be done in one go. If we do really end up with integrated circuits being shared between science and engineering that's going to require a pretty major map overhaul and everything else can be done at the same time.

I still have a problem with this. The Roboticists will want to build mechs, a normal Scientist will now have one less job to do. There is also talk of removing Toxins from Science and giving it to Atmos. If you are restricting or removing the protolathe as well, then you are severely diminishing what that role used to be. There will only be Xenobio left for a normal Scientist (unless the circuits thing gets in I guess). While Xenobio is loaded with plenty of content, it is at max a two person job.

The combination of restricting access to designs along with the limitations Techwebs will bring may result in those designs not being researched. Why would I care about designs other than upgraded stock parts, mech equipment, borg upgrades and gear for the miners? If by "give him access", you mean giving the RD access to other departments like the HoS has, I would recommend against it. Simply put, the Scientists would be reluctant to spend the research points on something they cannot get or use.


Integrated circuits getting in is part of the core of all this happening. Toxins most likely won't be getting out of science without it as much as I'd like to.

Also as far as the behaviors of scientists: You can't change how people will act without changing something first or major admin policy change.

All this leaves room for some buffs to science again and people like always are going to love buffing science.
Narcissistic stuff others said/made for me
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JJRcop
 
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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby JJRcop » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:44 am #355993

What can antags do to sabotage this, and how can the crew recover from sabotage?
I lurk quite often...

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Armhulen
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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby Armhulen » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:50 am #355996

Kor wrote:If anyone wants to do some lazy recolours of the protolathe to make a variant for:

Supply

Medical

Engineering

Security

I'd appreciate that

i want to do this but only if nobody else is
go to bed bro, she's not thinking about you.

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Anonmare
 
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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby Anonmare » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:51 am #355997

If I knew spiriting, I'd just put a departmental-coloured stripe along the side. Simple and identifiable
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Yakumo_Chen
 
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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:02 am #356050

Kor wrote:
Gun Hog wrote:What is the incentive for a Scientist or the RD to bother interacting with the R&D system? Do they still have access to all the current designs? Btw, if you do not add a proper distribution system for minerals, then most of the time a single department will hog the majority of them. Fun conflict for a while, but no ideal for every single round.


The science department will still want to build mechs (though a regular scientist wont interact much with the techwebs). The research director probably still want to grab things from various lathes (we can give him access).
What's the incentive for scientists, and not just robotics, though?

Will science still have their own things they can print out, such as parts for upgrades? Does this prevent science from building machines (which would allow them to build the departmental autolathes / chem dispensers / whatever else goof wants to complain about anyway)?

As an RnD scientist I tend to spend a lot of time just building various machines in science / upgrading other machines around the station. More cloning pods, backup science cloner, backup telecomms, etc, and more then one scientist can find a use of their shift in having a fully functioning research department instead of going toxins/xeno/niche science role. Will the new circuits thing still give just as much work for science to do?
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cedarbridge
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Re: Decentralize Research

Postby cedarbridge » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:23 am #356053

Yakumo_Chen wrote:
Kor wrote:
Gun Hog wrote:What is the incentive for a Scientist or the RD to bother interacting with the R&D system? Do they still have access to all the current designs? Btw, if you do not add a proper distribution system for minerals, then most of the time a single department will hog the majority of them. Fun conflict for a while, but no ideal for every single round.


The science department will still want to build mechs (though a regular scientist wont interact much with the techwebs). The research director probably still want to grab things from various lathes (we can give him access).
What's the incentive for scientists, and not just robotics, though?

Will science still have their own things they can print out, such as parts for upgrades? Does this prevent science from building machines (which would allow them to build the departmental autolathes / chem dispensers / whatever else goof wants to complain about anyway)?

As an RnD scientist I tend to spend a lot of time just building various machines in science / upgrading other machines around the station. More cloning pods, backup science cloner, backup telecomms, etc, and more then one scientist can find a use of their shift in having a fully functioning research department instead of going toxins/xeno/niche science role. Will the new circuits thing still give just as much work for science to do?


He mentioned this being tied in with the Experimentor machine, but apart from filling a lab with crabs and pugs I've never really found much entertainment from that process. I never found the "feed the bullshit into the grinder" process terribly interesting, the parts and tools you could get after the drudgework were interesting and allowed for lots of fun station upgrades. Medbay becomes your best friend after you've installed their 5th cloning pod.

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