Decentralize Research

[Anonmare]

Bottom post of the previous page:

If I knew spiriting, I'd just put a departmental-coloured stripe along the side. Simple and identifiable

[Yakumo_Chen]

What is the incentive for a Scientist or the RD to bother interacting with the R&D system? Do they still have access to all the current designs? Btw, if you do not add a proper distribution system for minerals, then most of the time a single department will hog the majority of them. Fun conflict for a while, but no ideal for every single round.

The science department will still want to build mechs (though a regular scientist wont interact much with the techwebs). The research director probably still want to grab things from various lathes (we can give him access).

What's the incentive for scientists, and not just robotics, though?

Will science still have their own things they can print out, such as parts for upgrades? Does this prevent science from building machines (which would allow them to build the departmental autolathes / chem dispensers / whatever else goof wants to complain about anyway)?

As an RnD scientist I tend to spend a lot of time just building various machines in science / upgrading other machines around the station. More cloning pods, backup science cloner, backup telecomms, etc, and more then one scientist can find a use of their shift in having a fully functioning research department instead of going toxins/xeno/niche science role. Will the new circuits thing still give just as much work for science to do?

[cedarbridge]

What is the incentive for a Scientist or the RD to bother interacting with the R&D system? Do they still have access to all the current designs? Btw, if you do not add a proper distribution system for minerals, then most of the time a single department will hog the majority of them. Fun conflict for a while, but no ideal for every single round.

The science department will still want to build mechs (though a regular scientist wont interact much with the techwebs). The research director probably still want to grab things from various lathes (we can give him access).

What's the incentive for scientists, and not just robotics, though?

Will science still have their own things they can print out, such as parts for upgrades? Does this prevent science from building machines (which would allow them to build the departmental autolathes / chem dispensers / whatever else goof wants to complain about anyway)?

As an RnD scientist I tend to spend a lot of time just building various machines in science / upgrading other machines around the station. More cloning pods, backup science cloner, backup telecomms, etc, and more then one scientist can find a use of their shift in having a fully functioning research department instead of going toxins/xeno/niche science role. Will the new circuits thing still give just as much work for science to do?

He mentioned this being tied in with the Experimentor machine, but apart from filling a lab with crabs and pugs I've never really found much entertainment from that process. I never found the "feed the bullshit into the grinder" process terribly interesting, the parts and tools you could get after the drudgework were interesting and allowed for lots of fun station upgrades. Medbay becomes your best friend after you've installed their 5th cloning pod.

[ShadowDimentio]

What can antags do to sabotage this, and how can the crew recover from sabotage?

Blow up the R&D server. Alternatively, let the R&D server computer control research available at the various lathes, with some (or all) being removed at will.

[Arianya]

Most of this sounds great!

I dislike moving toxins to atmospherics, but other then that its 10/10

[Noka]

What is the incentive for a Scientist or the RD to bother interacting with the R&D system? Do they still have access to all the current designs? Btw, if you do not add a proper distribution system for minerals, then most of the time a single department will hog the majority of them. Fun conflict for a while, but no ideal for every single round.

The science department will still want to build mechs (though a regular scientist wont interact much with the techwebs). The research director probably still want to grab things from various lathes (we can give him access).

What's the incentive for scientists, and not just robotics, though?

Will science still have their own things they can print out, such as parts for upgrades? Does this prevent science from building machines (which would allow them to build the departmental autolathes / chem dispensers / whatever else goof wants to complain about anyway)?

As an RnD scientist I tend to spend a lot of time just building various machines in science / upgrading other machines around the station. More cloning pods, backup science cloner, backup telecomms, etc, and more then one scientist can find a use of their shift in having a fully functioning research department instead of going toxins/xeno/niche science role. Will the new circuits thing still give just as much work for science to do?

He mentioned this being tied in with the Experimentor machine, but apart from filling a lab with crabs and pugs I've never really found much entertainment from that process. I never found the "feed the bullshit into the grinder" process terribly interesting, the parts and tools you could get after the drudgework were interesting and allowed for lots of fun station upgrades. Medbay becomes your best friend after you've installed their 5th cloning pod.

The main joy of the current process is when you first learn it - while you can treat it as FEED BULLSHIT INTO GRINDER at the end - is the joy of spelunking around the station accruing random shit with research values.

Nothing wrong with changing it into techwebs, but I'd have to say that if scientists no longer have a defined purpose aside from toxins or robots, they should get something extra for the Techweb (such as increasing science generation via calibration? Or something like that - Research should have some active science to it, it shouldn't just be sitting on your hands and picking web nodes. That works in a singleplayer game, but SS13 is anything but.)

I'd prefer for researchers to have a genuine purpose in respect to the techwebs, not just casually sidelined into being secondary roboticists.

[bunny232]

Sounds great would rate this 10 dead heretics out of 10 dead heretics

[Steelpoint]

This system seems like it'd give each Department a greater sense of agency than we've ever had before. Being a head of staff may be more engaging if you had more direct control over this new aspect of the game.

I have a feeling this proposed change will have a major effect on how each department works.

[Atlanta-Ned]

These changes need the fuck documented out of them on the wiki.

[kevinz000]

These changes need the fuck documented out of them on the wiki.

TRIAL BY FIRE!
not it. :^)

[Qbopper]

you're the one who spent 300 years on science prs you do it kev

[obscolene]

If anyone wants to do some lazy recolours of the protolathe to make a variant for:

Supply

Medical

Engineering

Security

I'd appreciate that

Have these been done yet?

[Kholdgrave]

I'd like for Science to actually get something that actually requires some kind of input as opposed to just waiting for it to be done with things. Maybe a dedicated Scientist can increase speed by finding random objects. I don't want Science to be cut down to two jobs that actually require some kind of work.

[RandomMarine]

That's what the experimentor should be for after this is implemented.

[onleavedontatme]

I'd like for Science to actually get something that actually requires some kind of input as opposed to just waiting for it to be done with things. Maybe a dedicated Scientist can increase speed by finding random objects. I don't want Science to be cut down to two jobs that actually require some kind of work.

Circuits

Xenobio

Toxins

Robotics

Experimentor (sort of)

Same number of jobs within the department as before

[Gun Hog]

I'd like for Science to actually get something that actually requires some kind of input as opposed to just waiting for it to be done with things. Maybe a dedicated Scientist can increase speed by finding random objects. I don't want Science to be cut down to two jobs that actually require some kind of work.

Circuits
Valid.

Xenobio
Valid.

Toxins
This is slated to be moved to Atmospherics.

Robotics
Valid in that is within the department, but it is typcially manned by a Roboticist, not a Scientist.

Experimentor (sort of)
Not a real job, unless Kev integrates it somehow.

Same number of jobs within the department as before

[onleavedontatme]

Toxins moving to atmos is completley unrelated to this change by unrelated coders and I have not been convinced on it yet

[Incomptinence]

Sounds like a good idea in part provides conflicting options for an atmos traitor.

No point flooding if you are going to blast holes to space no point blowing shit up if everyone is already on fire so they choose.

Of course enforces engineering's role as the most powerful and versatile department on a strict mechanical level making them even more so the absolute masters of when the round ends and ensures a mad bomber is perfectly positioned to cull the repair crew before we even get to the once in a blue moon chance of a bomb repair.

[captain sawrge]

Of course enforces engineering's role as the most powerful and versatile department on a strict mechanical level making them even more so the absolute masters of when the round ends and ensures a mad bomber is perfectly positioned to cull the repair crew before we even get to the once in a blue moon chance of a bomb repair.

Science is the strongest department but also engineering is but also sec is but also cargo is but als

[Incomptinence]

Engineering has always been stronger than any other department. They start out best equipped to cause a hostile environment and avoid hazards and other players. They can choose when to pull the plug on the station if not the round from the beginning and that never changes.

In an atmos simulation a significant portion of the server is dedicated to simulating their power.

[BeeSting12]

I've attached toxins to atmos on meta but I'm not PRing it until kevinz has finished techwebs and all the associated mapping is done to avoid conflicts.

[calzilla1]

This change is gud. R&D is basically the same every round, why not automate it?

[kevinz000]

I've attached toxins to atmos on meta but I'm not PRing it until kevinz has finished techwebs and all the associated mapping is done to avoid conflicts.

Circuits goes in first then I'll resolve conflicts on techwebs.

[Oldman Robustin]

Ill repost this here because its a good idea and also it makes Kevinz really upset:

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Add a GBP-like mechanic for every department that allows them to assist the "central" RND system. This would also incorporate the randomization that @Rinoka was talking about and would function like miniature station goals, but for a department. One round the Medbay Lathe has a research project involving a difficult virus combo, a set of 6 specific disabilities in a DNA injector, and 100 units of a rare chemical like Strange Reagent... next round it might require infecting a majority of the crew with a virus, creating a monkey human with a certain appearance, etc...

Completing these projects would result in the immediate completion of a technology for that department, perhaps the tech "reward" would also be randomized to prevent it just being a cog in the machine of rushing certain "meta" technologies. Or perhaps certain "endgame" tech could only be unlocked by completing some of these projects.

Likewise I'd suggest incorporating the GBP-esque feature of having the department able to furnish their own resources. Like a universal "budget" currency that can be used as a gap-filler for missing resources. So if you can't get ______ mineral from the QM you can simply use 100 units from your budget to produce the item at your lathe, perhaps the budget could also be used to "rush" tech from that department too. I already fleshed out this idea for engineering but its with enough work it could be done for any department. Perhaps that budget could also be transferable to other departments, useful as a negotiating instrument to secure cooperation (Science will wire you 1000 GBPs for a canister of Tritium, Engineering).

I think it would be a huge boon to gameplay, crew interaction, but also avoiding what are some of the inevitable pitfalls of making every dept. competing for resources that might not even be coming out of cargo. Perhaps redeemed resources should be split evenly or within tightly controlled ranges and we just balance costs so that no department has a resource glut or famine, and like the budget it could be transferred to meet a specific need (i.e. Warops). Maybe the QM could deviate from equal distribution but any department that sees their "fair share" diminished (its a zero sum thing after all) would require consent from either the Captain or the "diminished" department head.

Anyway these are all ideas that will take longer than a 2 week freeze to accomplish, but I absolutely think the framework should be ready to incorporate them because a straightforward "RND decides who to bless with tech, QM decides who to bless with resources, remaining departments reduced to sitting in their office and begging on radio" is an almost criminal under-utilization of what this system could offer.

[cedarbridge]

Sounds like a good idea in part provides conflicting options for an atmos traitor.

No point flooding if you are going to blast holes to space no point blowing shit up if everyone is already on fire so they choose.

Of course enforces engineering's role as the most powerful and versatile department on a strict mechanical level making them even more so the absolute masters of when the round ends and ensures a mad bomber is perfectly positioned to cull the repair crew before we even get to the once in a blue moon chance of a bomb repair.

The number of balance problems this will cause is astronomical.

We need to give not just one catastrophic event (plasma flood) to atmos (who basically do nothing all shift) but also a second one (toxins bombs) because ?????. You're also giving these bombs to a role that starts with a fireproof hardsuit and one of the most robust non-TC melee weapons in the game.

To a role that does basically nothing.

[oranges]

most atmos players can't figure out how to effectively flood because they're new

[Oldman Robustin]

Atmos is one hacked door from all the TTV's it needs, if anything it will reduced destruction because it limits the number of people with access to station-ending equipment to 2, whereas with Toxins you basically quadruple that number because now every scientist can bomb the station on top the atmos tech's ability to flood.

[Anonmare]

Technically atmos and toxins have always been one hacked door away from station-ending threats. Two if you count the distro loop.

[DemonFiren]

I don't think a door that can be bypassed by throwing shit at a window counts.

[kevinz000]

most atmos players can't figure out how to effectively flood because they're new

[Dr_bee]

most atmos players can't figure out how to effectively flood because they're new

Hell, I know some atmos and I cant do an effective flood without going to the room I want to flood and fiddling with the air alarms. The atmos system is the closest thing we have to goonstation style secrets by the sheer complexity of the system.

Just keep guides to do it off the wiki outside of the basics.

[cedarbridge]

most atmos players can't figure out how to effectively flood because they're new

Is this supposed to be an argument for or against giving them TTVs?

[Anonmare]

most atmos players can't figure out how to effectively flood because they're new

Is this supposed to be an argument for or against giving them TTVs?

There's legit very little stopping me as an atmos tech from breaking in to steal a TTV or 2 beyond the inconvenience of walking my way to toxins maint and judging whether or not anyone is in there, and if there is I just claim I'm setting up the air alarm to contaminated pre-emptively and slip myself one of the TTVs while they're not looking.

[cedarbridge]

I'm not worried about theft and B&E. I'm trying to figure out what atmos techs being bad at atmos control has to do with bombs.

[JJRcop]

With these new circuits I had the idea to add them to existing machines, so that you could rewire fire alarms or airlocks. Probably a pipe dream.

[Anonmare]

Reprogram fire alarms to be literal fire alarms and shoot fire at anyone who gets too close

[Nilons]

this sounds amazing, like what science should be tbh

[oranges]

With these new circuits I had the idea to add them to existing machines, so that you could rewire fire alarms or airlocks. Probably a pipe dream.

You're going about it the wrong way, you should build up the circuits system until all existing machinery can be replaced at roundstart by them