Make unarmed attacks do stamina damage instead of brute

[cedarbridge]

I need to be told why this is a bad idea. It feels like we approached this idea some time back as part of a larger discussion about combat overhauls and I don't remember ever being convinced one way or the other but looking at it on my own the concept is good.

1) Can knock somebody out without killing them.
2) Makes finding and acquiring weaponry (toolboxes) mean something that is not currently needed due to everyone on station having Mike Tyson fists.
3) Stamina recoups without need for actual medical attention meaning minor scuffles over minor issues between greyshirst don't have to end with one dragging the other to medbay before the loser bleeds out.

I get that stamina in its current form is kinda lame but I don't see a problem with making unarmed combat use it over lethal brute damage.

[Saegrimr]

People are gonna whine about MUH CHAIN STUNS when you have one dude just constantly kicking a guy who is down until backup arrives or he finds a toolbox.

[cedarbridge]

People are gonna whine about MUH CHAIN STUNS when you have one dude just constantly kicking a guy who is down until backup arrives or he finds a toolbox.

As opposed to now just beating somebody into crit/on into death sufficies for the same issues. The alternative is that merely stunning somebody with stamina damage isn't lethal. We could revisit stamina damage decay/recovery if it turns into "well, I punched him enough to knock him down so now I can go have a sandwich while I look for a real weapon" but I don't think stamina damage is really at that extreme right now. Disablers are kinda? balanced as they are. Naturally those are limited uses as opposed to unlimited fists, but the principal is roughly the same.

[BeeSting12]

Worth a test merge at least. It just comes down to the question of is smacking a guy into critical any worse/better than smacking a guy into a stun?

[ShadowDimentio]

1) Can knock somebody out without killing them.
2) Makes finding and acquiring weaponry (toolboxes) mean something that is not currently needed due to everyone on station having Mike Tyson fists.
3) Stamina recoups without need for actual medical attention meaning minor scuffles over minor issues between greyshirst don't have to end with one dragging the other to medbay before the loser bleeds out.

1: When has this ever been an issue? If someone is being such a douche you have to knock them out, they deserve the trip to medbay, if that.
2: Are you retarded? Your fists are a literal last resort, nobody without a deathwish will try and punch anyone unless they're also unarmed.
3: See 1. If you had to beat someone into crit, they probably deserved it.

Giving everyone disablers for fists is a fucking awful idea. Being literally unarmed should not be a desirable state under any circumstances.

[cedarbridge]

1) Can knock somebody out without killing them.
2) Makes finding and acquiring weaponry (toolboxes) mean something that is not currently needed due to everyone on station having Mike Tyson fists.
3) Stamina recoups without need for actual medical attention meaning minor scuffles over minor issues between greyshirst don't have to end with one dragging the other to medbay before the loser bleeds out.

1: When has this ever been an issue? If someone is being such a douche you have to knock them out, they deserve the trip to medbay, if that.
2: Are you retarded? Your fists are a literal last resort, nobody without a deathwish will try and punch anyone unless they're also unarmed.
3: See 1. If you had to beat someone into crit, they probably deserved it.

1) Presuming the only reason people fight is because the victim was "being such a douche" says more about yourself than anything we're discussing here.
2) I made this thread expecting you to convince me that the idea is bad, not to make yourself look bad. There's no reason for anyone to use a toolbox when their fists are nominally as good, QED.
3) See 1. Your argument presumes one party is an asshole and that all combat must be done for the purpose of out-assholing the asshole.

What makes having disablers for fists more desirable than having brute damage lethal weapons for fists, exactly? Did you think this through at all or is your knee just jerking?

[WJohnston]

Well, the removal of disarming in its conventional sense or being pushed down being a total death sentence is nice, but I think we should still keep weapon disarming around if it can only be used on guns. This makes them risky to use in melee combat, and could give someone the edge if they can knock it out of your hand and pick it up to use against you.

However, I'm also concerned about being able to permanently deal stamina damage to people and keep them chainstunned forever. I think I'd like to perhaps see stamina damage reset to 0 (and be unable to take more until you get back up) be implemented in general so you can't just keep someone down permanently.

As to how much stamina damage this should do, I'm not sure. Maybe 15-20? It can be tweaked over time.



Oh, and while you're at it, please remove the ability to weaken people with your punches, and make their damage output a consistent 4 brute or something so you actually have incentive to seek out any sort of real weapon and they're really just last resort. It's nice enough at least that you can no longer stunlock someone with weakening punches nowadays, but randomly gaining stun hands is pretty stupid.

[Super Aggro Crag]

What if you know martial artz

[cedarbridge]

What if you know martial artz

The scroll counts as registering your fists as lethal weapons. Just like all of the cheesy kung fu flicks.

[PKPenguin321]

>cant kill people with bare hands
i hate it

[ShadowDimentio]

1) Presuming the only reason people fight is because the victim was "being such a douche" says more about yourself than anything we're discussing here.
2) I made this thread expecting you to convince me that the idea is bad, not to make yourself look bad. There's no reason for anyone to use a toolbox when their fists are nominally as good, QED.
3) See 1. Your argument presumes one party is an asshole and that all combat must be done for the purpose of out-assholing the asshole.

1: That IS all combat ever is. Unless someone's being a dick there's rarely ever reason to attack them, this is true for real life and SS13.
2: Are you retarded? Your fists deal 0-9 damage with a 4 second stun on a 9. There's nothing punching someone can do that can't be done better with a real weapon.
3: See 1

[Dr_bee]

Consider using the system TES 4: Oblivion used and have punching do stamina damage until knockout, and then do only lethal damage.

This will make beating a motherfucker to death with your bare god damned hands still possible and make chain stunning people a bit harder as you no longer do stamina damage while a person is down. If fist damage is lower than stamina regen at least.

[RandomMarine]

Consider using the system TES 4: Oblivion used and have punching do stamina damage until knockout, and then do only lethal damage.

This will make beating a motherfucker to death with your bare god damned hands still possible and make chain stunning people a bit harder as you no longer do stamina damage while a person is down. If fist damage is lower than stamina regen at least.

That was Morrowind's system. Oblivion did both stamina and health damage at the same time.

But still, seconding this. Make punching deal mostly stamina damage (Plus a smallish chance of 1-2 brute to bruise them up a little and trigger the borgs), while kicking them while they're down should solely dish out a larger amount of brute, nothing better than a toolbox, but enough that a few guys kicking someone should put them into critical fairly quick.

[captain sawrge]

>cant kill people with bare hands
i hate it

What is choking

[cedarbridge]

>cant kill people with bare hands
i hate it

What is choking

Nerfed into oblivion last I checked.

[Screemonster]

Consider using the system TES 4: Oblivion used and have punching do stamina damage until knockout, and then do only lethal damage.

This will make beating a motherfucker to death with your bare god damned hands still possible and make chain stunning people a bit harder as you no longer do stamina damage while a person is down. If fist damage is lower than stamina regen at least.

There's something similar in the way WoD tabletop handles damage

There are three types of damage - bashing (represented by line), lethal (represented by plus) and aggravated (represented by star) and your health is a series of boxes
bashing wears off reasonably fast and is dealt by fists, lethal takes longer and aggravated is super severe injuries that require actual medical treatment

If all your boxes are filled (or more accurately, the last one) by any type of damage you're KO'd
if you take further bashing damage with all boxes filled then instead of adding an extra line you upgrade one of the bashing damage boxes to lethal
if all boxes are filled with lethal then both lethal and bashing upgrade them to aggravated, and they also upgrade over time (similar to being in crit)
if all boxes are filled with agg then you're deaderino

[cedarbridge]

Consider using the system TES 4: Oblivion used and have punching do stamina damage until knockout, and then do only lethal damage.

This will make beating a motherfucker to death with your bare god damned hands still possible and make chain stunning people a bit harder as you no longer do stamina damage while a person is down. If fist damage is lower than stamina regen at least.

There's something similar in the way WoD tabletop handles damage

There are three types of damage - bashing (represented by line), lethal (represented by plus) and aggravated (represented by star) and your health is a series of boxes
bashing wears off reasonably fast and is dealt by fists, lethal takes longer and aggravated is super severe injuries that require actual medical treatment

If all your boxes are filled (or more accurately, the last one) by any type of damage you're KO'd
if you take further bashing damage with all boxes filled then instead of adding an extra line you upgrade one of the bashing damage boxes to lethal
if all boxes are filled with lethal then both lethal and bashing upgrade them to aggravated, and they also upgrade over time (similar to being in crit)
if all boxes are filled with agg then you're deaderino

Did that change? I could have sworn only supernatural characters survived full lethal. Aggravated was just injuries that were either 1) hard to heal (burns and rending attacks) or 2) Particularly lethal to your type (vampire weaknesses etc)

[captain sawrge]

>cant kill people with bare hands
i hate it

What is choking

Nerfed into oblivion last I checked.

Still good

[SpaceInaba]

as long as krav/cqc/carp are still lethal

[Dr_bee]

as long as krav/cqc/carp are still lethal

well it would make sense, considering those are actual martial arts designed to murder folks and not two dorks flailing around untrained.

[Nilons]

>cant kill people with bare hands
i hate it

[Cobby]

when are we bringing back ultra rng headshot KOs

[cedarbridge]

>cant kill people with bare hands
i hate it

Guess you should acquire a martial art or some means of increasing your strength. Might be interesting to consider the workout machines for a temporary buff that makes attacks lethal.

[SpaceInaba]

>cant kill people with bare hands
i hate it

Guess you should acquire a martial art or some means of increasing your strength. Might be interesting to consider the workout machines for a temporary buff that makes attacks lethal.

G E T S W O L E

[captain sawrge]

>cant kill people with bare hands
i hate it

Guess you should acquire a martial art or some means of increasing your strength. Might be interesting to consider the workout machines for a temporary buff that makes attacks lethal.

just choke lmao

[captain sawrge]

If you get a stamina knockdown on someone you can very easily begin choking them and once you begin it is fairly difficult to get out

[captain sawrge]

Unless choking was specifically nerfed in like the last two months because I killed Alphonso in tdom with punches and choking

[John_Oxford]

I need to be told why this is a bad idea. It feels like we approached this idea some time back as part of a larger discussion about combat overhauls and I don't remember ever being convinced one way or the other but looking at it on my own the concept is good.

1) Can knock somebody out without killing them.
2) Makes finding and acquiring weaponry (toolboxes) mean something that is not currently needed due to everyone on station having Mike Tyson fists.
3) Stamina recoups without need for actual medical attention meaning minor scuffles over minor issues between greyshirst don't have to end with one dragging the other to medbay before the loser bleeds out.

I get that stamina in its current form is kinda lame but I don't see a problem with making unarmed combat use it over lethal brute damage.

Because if i punched you in the face you wouldn't just feel slightly exausted

[Nilons]

I need to be told why this is a bad idea. It feels like we approached this idea some time back as part of a larger discussion about combat overhauls and I don't remember ever being convinced one way or the other but looking at it on my own the concept is good.

1) Can knock somebody out without killing them.
2) Makes finding and acquiring weaponry (toolboxes) mean something that is not currently needed due to everyone on station having Mike Tyson fists.
3) Stamina recoups without need for actual medical attention meaning minor scuffles over minor issues between greyshirst don't have to end with one dragging the other to medbay before the loser bleeds out.

I get that stamina in its current form is kinda lame but I don't see a problem with making unarmed combat use it over lethal brute damage.

Because if i punched you in the face you wouldn't just feel slightly exausted

Space station 13 is not real life Oxford

[cedarbridge]

I need to be told why this is a bad idea. It feels like we approached this idea some time back as part of a larger discussion about combat overhauls and I don't remember ever being convinced one way or the other but looking at it on my own the concept is good.

1) Can knock somebody out without killing them.
2) Makes finding and acquiring weaponry (toolboxes) mean something that is not currently needed due to everyone on station having Mike Tyson fists.
3) Stamina recoups without need for actual medical attention meaning minor scuffles over minor issues between greyshirst don't have to end with one dragging the other to medbay before the loser bleeds out.

I get that stamina in its current form is kinda lame but I don't see a problem with making unarmed combat use it over lethal brute damage.

Because if i punched you in the face you wouldn't just feel slightly exausted

Space station 13 is not real life Oxford

The comparison doesn't work anyway. Unless you're particularly strong, 10 punches would not put an average person into a dying state but it would certainly knock them out and 1-2 good ones would stagger them. As is now, the average spessman is Mike Tyson.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

yeah but a .357 bullet to the head would kill/instantly disable and leave dying any human being, rather than being a two-shot to leave knocked out on a naked man. and a giant combat mech that can rip apart metal walls with its bare hands would do more than knock you over and make your chest badly bruised when it punched you.

Oh and gunshot wounds wouldnt be fixed by just sticking a bruise patch on it.

Don't get into the "realism" argument when it comes to the incredible resilience of spacemen

[John_Oxford]

yeah but a .357 bullet to the head would kill/instantly disable and leave dying any human being, rather than being a two-shot to leave knocked out on a naked man. and a giant combat mech that can rip apart metal walls with its bare hands would do more than knock you over and make your chest badly bruised when it punched you.

Oh and gunshot wounds wouldnt be fixed by just sticking a bruise patch on it.

Don't get into the "realism" argument when it comes to the incredible resilience of spacemen

Following that trend of lack of realism, why should unarmed attacks be realistic and nothing else.

[PantherPusher]

What if extended punching without any sort of protection to your hands starts to make you do less per hit until eventually you're just cutting up your knuckles and take brute damage on your arms?

[cedarbridge]

What if extended punching without any sort of protection to your hands starts to make you do less per hit until eventually you're just cutting up your knuckles and take brute damage on your arms?

Too counter intuitive. Would make more sense if you made punching borgs or heavily armored things hurt your hands instead.

[Saegrimr]

The more I think on it, the more i'm in favor of unarmed doing stamina. Even if you could be stunlocked from stamina, the alternative is being in crit/dead.

[ShadowDimentio]

Why should being unarmed in any way be a desirable state

Why are you chucklefucks so convinced that punching is in any way good, it's not. Fists are beaten out by literally any weapon that deals damage.

[cedarbridge]

Why should being unarmed in any way be a desirable state

Why are you chucklefucks so convinced that punching is in any way good, it's not. Fists are beaten out by literally any weapon that deals damage.

Its funny that he keeps posting like this thinking it convinces anyone of anything.

[Saegrimr]

Why should being unarmed in any way be a desirable state

It shouldn't be, that's why it should do stamina. Grab literally anything else if you want to clonk a guy to death.

[John_Oxford]

18 different people have posted in this thread
several of which have posted more than once.

let's say your using the "muh realism" argument
>stamina damage being done with fists is unrealistic
let's say your using the "muh gameplay" argument
>nothing else in the game does ONLY stamina damage instead of actual damage short of disablers and the detectives revolver, along with beanbags. all items -meant- to stun someone

stop, this thread is bad.

[Saegrimr]

Because if i punched you in the face you wouldn't just feel slightly exausted

You were the first person in this thread to bring up realism.

We're trying to discuss balance and what would be fun.

[ShadowDimentio]

Why should being unarmed in any way be a desirable state

It shouldn't be, that's why it should do stamina. Grab literally anything else if you want to clonk a guy to death.

Nobody does this and it's not like this is making anything any less lethal, after you punch this dude enough with your disablers for fists he'll be hit with the century long stamina stun during which you have like a minute to grab ~any weapon~ and finish him off, or just strangle him if you want to do it clean.

[cedarbridge]

let's say your using the "muh realism" argument
>stamina damage being done with fists is unrealistic

No its not. The odds of you beating somebody into a critical state with your bare knuckles is stupidly low unless you're Mike Tyson. You're much more likely to knock somebody out from standing than literally put them into a hospital bed.

let's say your using the "muh gameplay" argument
>nothing else in the game does ONLY stamina damage instead of actual damage short of disablers and the detectives revolver, along with beanbags. all items -meant- to stun someone

Where's the argument in this section?

[cedarbridge]

Why should being unarmed in any way be a desirable state

It shouldn't be, that's why it should do stamina. Grab literally anything else if you want to clonk a guy to death.

Nobody does this and it's not like this is making anything any less lethal, after you punch this dude enough with your disablers for fists he'll be hit with the century long stamina stun during which you have like a minute to grab ~any weapon~ and finish him off, or just strangle him if you want to do it clean.

Now, what if stamina were a variable coded into the structure of the game? What if we could adjust those values and adjust their decay rates? Wouldn't that be wacky?

[ShadowDimentio]

Or we could just not do this and save everyone the effort

I've yet to see any compelling reasons to add this, just a whole lot of overplaying the effectiveness of punching in-game and a bunch of underplaying the lethality of punching someone IRL. You don't have to be a heavyweight champion to punch and kick someone to death.

[cedarbridge]

I've yet to see any compelling reasons

Given that your criteria for what qualifies as a "compelling reason" will change with the wind I fail to see why that matters here.

Why should being unarmed in any way be a desirable state

It shouldn't be, that's why it should do stamina. Grab literally anything else if you want to clonk a guy to death.

Nobody does this and it's not like this is making anything any less lethal

I'm confused. How many self-contradicting posts are you going to make in this thread before you stop?

"Hey, if they want to kill somebody they should get an actual weapon or choke them."
"Nobody does that (because they don't have to). Besides, people will just get a weapon and kill them with it or choke them."

[ShadowDimentio]

"Hey, if they want to kill somebody they should get an actual weapon or choke them."
"Nobody does that (because they don't have to). Besides, people will just get a weapon and kill them with it or choke them."

Nobody does this as in nobody actually fights people with their fists

But please, continue running around saying they do.

[captain sawrge]

"Hey, if they want to kill somebody they should get an actual weapon or choke them."
"Nobody does that (because they don't have to). Besides, people will just get a weapon and kill them with it or choke them."

Nobody does this as in nobody actually fights people with their fists

But please, continue running around saying they do.

You are extremely retarded and should not be aloud to post.

[Cobby]

This is the best alternative to the whole infinite crit stuff kor wanted. Now there’s a nonlethal way to end an escalation sequence that doesn’t require you to wear red.

[PantherPusher]

The most often time you'd be fighting with your fists is in self defense while not an antag, being able to knock someone unconcious without critting them and run to find help or to hide would be nice.

[Gamarr]

The only real reason I see that is against all this again seems to be over LEGACY and the fact there isn't more prominent stamina-damaging things. Which is because whenever its been tried, this happens, and the only thing we get for some reason are disabler shots.

As for not fighting with their fists? Play the fucking game sometime, you see greys and others wrestling routinely with tabling and throwing/juggling chairs.

Would a compromise help, maybe have the fists do stamina/brute both, much like many of the syndicate bullets? I don't know what they do right now, lets just say its... 5 brute, straight, per punch. Make that 2 brute, 2-4 stamina. Meaning if you're punching an officer in the chest, he's likely just toughing out your actual damage but you Are tiring him out with the stamina by physically hitting him. Aiming for his legs/arms/head will make more difference, because then things like Jackboots might do the same and prevent some of the brute, while the helmets will obviously do what its intended to do like the vest and tank the brute for the most part and maybe even the stamina. You Are punching a big metal helmet, should actually be one of those things that harms you.