remove assistant

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:20 am #32350

Bottom post of the previous page:

deathhoof wrote:Im serious. No matter how cool i think climbing tables and gang mode is, these features would never make up for something as vile as removing assistant. I am more than willing to sacrafice being on a server with a decent coderbase and fun antag rules for having assistants.
Assistants > any perk the server could ever provide.

Why, exactly, are assistants so good?
What, exactly, do assistants do that other jobs don't?

ExplosiveCrate · Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:25 am

What would removing assistants even accomplish? Limiting the amount of total characters (note, characters, not players) on a server? Shifting all of the regular assistant players to a different job without actually changing the way they play?

deathhoof · Post by **deathhoof** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:33 am #32354

Why, exactly, are assistants so good?
What, exactly, do assistants do that other jobs don't?

Assistants are the life and blood of the station.
-They give the service jobs a reason to exist
-They give the station roleplaying interaction outside of "hey could you pass that beaker?"
-They allow for custom jobs like space explorer or musician to exist
-They are prime borging candidates
-They are vital to rev round
-They have lots of unique interaction opportunities such as: labrat for genetics, labrat for surgeons and robotocists, eye-witnesses, general station repair, grey-bar, grey-fortress, etc.. (indefinite avenue for creativity)

So basically the answer to your second question is this:
Everything.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:26 am #32365

Assistants just have no responsibility thus they never get banned and never risk jobbans for being assholes

kosmos · Post by **kosmos** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:55 am #32396

Could we have a test period of 2 weeks with no assistants? What's the worst that could happen?

Assistant job slot should be for new players, though. If a player wants no responsibility, we have drones now.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:56 am #32397

It would essentially crate a player cap of around 50 ish players.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:07 am #32400

>people still talking about player count being capped
if that's the only reason you don't want this, then we should totally do it, because that's easy as fuck to fix

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:43 am #32424

deathhoof wrote:
Why, exactly, are assistants so good?
What, exactly, do assistants do that other jobs don't?
Assistants are the life and blood of the station.
-They give the service jobs a reason to exist
-They give the station roleplaying interaction outside of "hey could you pass that beaker?"
-They allow for custom jobs like space explorer or musician to exist
-They are prime borging candidates
-They are vital to rev round
-They have lots of unique interaction opportunities such as: labrat for genetics, labrat for surgeons and robotocists, eye-witnesses, general station repair, grey-bar, grey-fortress, etc.. (indefinite avenue for creativity)

So basically the answer to your second question is this:
Everything.

-Today I learned that only assistants eat at the kitchen counter and visit the bar
-Today I also learned that nobody roleplays or even interacts socially except assistants
-None of these jobs are covered or could be done within departmental roles (you know except the theater department (clown/mime) or the science department (telescience)
-I've borged pretty much everyone except the Captain, HoS, and Warden at this point (willingly anyway)
-Why? What is stopping revs from being a thing where departments actually rebel against their heads instead of being overrun by GRAYTIDDDDE? Seems like departments rising up against their leaders was the entire point of rev. Kinda makes departmentless assistants actually determental to revs and far from essential to the plot
-So things that are either done by monkeyed humans, literally any passerby, engineers, litterally anyone again, and drones

So, nothing then? I'm not seeing a reason for assistants to exist based on this list.

Antimattercarp · Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:13 pm

deathhoof wrote:
Why, exactly, are assistants so good?
What, exactly, do assistants do that other jobs don't?
Assistants are the life and blood of the station.
-They give the service jobs a reason to exist
-They give the station roleplaying interaction outside of "hey could you pass that beaker?"
-They allow for custom jobs like space explorer or musician to exist
-They are prime borging candidates
-They are vital to rev round
-They have lots of unique interaction opportunities such as: labrat for genetics, labrat for surgeons and robotocists, eye-witnesses, general station repair, grey-bar, grey-fortress, etc.. (indefinite avenue for creativity)

So basically the answer to your second question is this:
Everything.

-As bartender the most I ever experience with Assistants is expending my precious beanbag rounds breaking up fights in the bar, in falling order I serve 1) Meddocs 2) Scientists 3) Detective 4)The Clown/Assistant 5) Miners/engies 6) the Janitor
-Ha, Roleplaying assistants pull the other one it has bells on it.
-Assistants have exclusive rights to this?
-I tend to not kidnap people for borging/see above
-So Revs will actually have to be stealthy then instead of relying on cannon fodder? Amazing!
-Imma do this individually: Non-exclusive/Never happens, Non-exclusive/Never happens, Assistants cooperate with sec?/Non-exclusive/Never happens, Drones, Drones, Drones.

So any excuses for assmaint has been replaced by the inclusion of the drone
So any utility an assistant has has been made obsolete?
So, I would be fine with noassmaint with a side of secmaint

highlow · Post by **highlow** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:01 pm #32446

miggles wrote:this is the worst thread of the year 10/10 anton

A4Brogan · Post by **A4Brogan** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:23 pm #32453

I use Assistant as a means of being the guy that scouts the maintenance halls, gathering crates for Cargo, alerting Engineering to break-ins and hull breaches, and generally finding creative projects in the many open areas in the station.

Taking away the job is punishing us who are trying to be good players who want challenges of not being able to access most areas without getting our hands dirty, because others are being lazy motherfuckers who want to derail the fun for others.

In protest of this, I will be playing nothing but assistant, and my personal objective is to be nothing but helpful and compliant with my superiors.

Antonkr · Post by **Antonkr** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:57 pm #32455

The issue with this is that even though that this is supposed to be how assistant is played, inpractice that never does occur. A whitelist can be made if needed.

Rolan7 · Post by **Rolan7** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:49 am #32586

A4Brogan wrote:I use Assistant as a means of being the guy that scouts the maintenance halls, gathering crates for Cargo, alerting Engineering to break-ins and hull breaches, and generally finding creative projects in the many open areas in the station.

Taking away the job is punishing us who are trying to be good players who want challenges of not being able to access most areas without getting our hands dirty, because others are being lazy motherfuckers who want to derail the fun for others.

In protest of this, I will be playing nothing but assistant, and my personal objective is to be nothing but helpful and compliant with my superiors.

The problem is you can do all of that as cargo tech. Or like... almost any job? By design, most jobs have a lot of free time. Look at engineer- spend maybe 5 minutes setting up the singulo, then bam you're free to do whatever forever. People don't really expect anything to be repaired with our tiny-ass round times.

Skorvold · Post by **Skorvold** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:00 am #32614

Steelpoint wrote:All Assistants spawn on the Gulag with a randomly set point sentence.

Best Idea whole thread, not even kiddin'.

callanrockslol · Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:25 am

Skorvold wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:All Assistants spawn on the Gulag with a randomly set point sentence.
Best Idea whole thread, not even kiddin'.

EVEN BETTER IDEA, KEEP ASSISTANT BUT MAKE PRISONER A JOB PLEASE

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:36 am #32651

YES PRISONER JOB, THE SECRET META WHERE YOU TRADE CIGARETTES AND SHOES UNTIL YOU BECOME THE PRISON LEADER

FIRST THE GULAG, THEN THE STATION, THEN THE UNIVERSE

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:32 am #32664

that's actually a cool idea.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:59 am #32668

It would require a redesign of the Gulag to accommodate a larger, and more permanent, population.

---

A few months ago, a idea was presented to work the Gulag into a two section area. The Security section which is high tech, modern, clean, small but is used to process prisioners and send them to the Gulag proper. Which was large, old and disused. As well as infested with a hivebot population.

Either way, its not the worst idea, and it can potentially provide a alternative income of minerals. I think all food/resources should be distributed by Security alone, to reward work output.

deathhoof · Post by **deathhoof** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:02 pm #32671

I'm all in favor of prison job. There is nothing more fun than a prison break on ss13.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:01 pm #32684

>prison job
Just commit some stupid capital crime, gee.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:26 pm #32699

If you love the gulag so much, why don't you fucking use it instead of executing antags to satisfy your murderboner?

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:00 pm #32716

Because gulag sucks as an alternative to usual timed sentence. 100 points to 1 minute conversion is very inaccurate, you have no place to put prisoner's stuff to other than a crate on the shuttle which can be accessed by anyone, it's just a lot more of a hassle in general.

Gulag doesn't work because by the time you set it all up half of the timer would be gone.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:10 pm #32724

>instead of executing antags

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:33 pm #32747

Gulag is the alternative to regular sentencing, not permabrig. What does execution have to do with it?

Post by **MisterPerson** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:38 pm #32749

What does any of this have to do with assistants and their removal? Get back on topic.

QuartzCrystal · Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:18 pm

Fun fact: A lot of people (I'm not going to say majority, but a certainly noticeable amount) just play assistant so if they roll traitor they will have an easier time.

If you play assistant to play antag you are a skrub. Learn how to juggle playing an actual job while accomplishing your goals and having no one find out. It's infinitely easier to be a random greyshirt and get your objectives done because no one is expecting you to contribute anything.

In fact, it's official: No one from here on out is to be considered robust as a traitor if they are an assistant.

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:42 pm #32789

QuartzCrystal wrote:Fun fact: A lot of people (I'm not going to say majority, but a certainly noticeable amount) just play assistant so if they roll traitor they will have an easier time.

If you play assistant to play antag you are a skrub. Learn how to juggle playing an actual job while accomplishing your goals and having no one find out. It's infinitely easier to be a random greyshirt and get your objectives done because no one is expecting you to contribute anything.

In fact, it's official: No one from here on out is to be considered robust as a traitor if they are an assistant.

This makes no sense. A assistant is going to have far more trouble killing someone or escaping alone than any other job. They start with nothing unlike all the other jobs on station.

Also, where did you get this "Fun Fact" from?

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:49 pm #32791

Replacing Assistants with Prisoner role is a terrible idea. Literally would be a job where you escape from prison to get valids on the crew and Sec. Would be worse than Greytide.

There is nothing wrong with Assistants. This topic is completely unneeded.

QuartzCrystal · Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:02 am

ThatSlyFox wrote:
QuartzCrystal wrote:Fun fact: A lot of people (I'm not going to say majority, but a certainly noticeable amount) just play assistant so if they roll traitor they will have an easier time.

If you play assistant to play antag you are a skrub. Learn how to juggle playing an actual job while accomplishing your goals and having no one find out. It's infinitely easier to be a random greyshirt and get your objectives done because no one is expecting you to contribute anything.

In fact, it's official: No one from here on out is to be considered robust as a traitor if they are an assistant.
This makes no sense. A assistant is going to have far more trouble killing someone or escaping alone than any other job. They start with nothing unlike all the other jobs on station.

Also, where did you get this "Fun Fact" from?

You're kidding right? They start with the benefit of being a practically faceless one of an unruly 20-something mass of shit. An assistant not overtly being hostile to someone can blend into any situation practically. No one questions why assistants are anywhere, just like how no one questions why they aren't anywhere. Having zero responsibilities enables you to do whatever the fuck you want, which is what people just assume assistants are doing. No one questions seeing a grey shirt running around in maintenance with a mask on.

Rolan7 · Post by **Rolan7** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:00 am #32847

Not only that but they spawn next to a shitload of tools and are expected to break in to places. They're basically engineers who don't have to set up the engine (or have access to space suits at roundstart, though it's not exactly hard to get into EVA).

Arete · Post by **Arete** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:03 am #32848

This is a social game, so social factors have to be considered when determining how powerful any given option is. When playing an antag chief engineer, things are made significantly more difficult by the fact that you'll be expected to get the singulo running and keep it stable and secure, watch over atmosia, repair telecomms when it inevitably breaks, and generally be there to fix whatever breaks over the course of the shift. If you're too busy taking care of traitor things to deal with that, then people will be shouting at the AI to hunt you down, and your precious hardsuit is one of the most distinctive sprites on the station, so you'd better forget about going out in public.

In theory, this makes a decent balance to the advantages that a traitor head of staff has, and the reverse is true for the less authoritative roles. In practice, the advantages might not line up well with the expectations. When that happens, the advantages should be adjusted. The current server culture is that assistants are allowed to get away with just about anything (although the admins have been stepping in to curtail that a little bit lately). Whether that's a good balance for the mechanical advantages and disadvantages is a valid matter for debate.

Fragnostic · Post by **Fragnostic** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:52 pm #32935

How about some assistants spawn in perma at roundstart? Of course, they'll probably go brain dead as soon as they spawn, but it could dissuade some people from rolling assistant just to griff. They could have an objective, like: "Escape the brig area and avoid custody." It doesn't make them antag, so they can't kill people, wall them in, or keep them N2O'd unless there is proper escalation, as always. This way, the Warden is actually busy instead of being a prick, could start to use sec records, and possibly interact with grey shirts enough to even let some out for good behaviour.

Some could even spawn in a random space body, like the derelict, AI sat, mining station, etc. with a black space suit, like the traitor uplink one to reduce meta, and get some assistants to explore instead of greytide.

Or...if an assistant gets killed, it respawns as a mouse or something mundane. It can't emote, and they have a change of becoming Ian or Poly or runtime so they build empathy for the pets they love to kill so much.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:03 pm #32939

That's pretty terrible, frag.

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:23 pm #32955

Discouraging Assistant play is as easy as changing one character in the "game_options.txt" file.
Change this:

Code: Select all

## Uncomment to give assistants maint access.
ASSISTANTS_HAVE_MAINT_ACCESS

to this:

Code: Select all

## Uncomment to give assistants maint access.
#ASSISTANTS_HAVE_MAINT_ACCESS

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:25 pm #32957

That would just increase break ins to steal gloves so they could open maint doors.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:26 pm #32959

Do Assistants even still have maintenance? Unless they only have it because its a server config option, since offline servers don't have assistant maint.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:43 pm #32978

Steelpoint wrote:Do Assistants even still have maintenance? Unless they only have it because its a server config option, since offline servers don't have assistant maint.

Do you see a massive outcry on forums?

Yes, of course they do.

Probably the best options are reducing/removing antag chances for assistants (my personal favorite as it has very few side effects) and removing maint access.

Fragnostic · Post by **Fragnostic** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:36 pm #32999

Scott wrote:That's pretty terrible, frag.

n-no you

Which part though? The entire thing?

Personally, I like to play assistant to feel involved in the game and the round as a whole, just to experience whatever comes along. But I know that some of us don't like assistants at all, and are going to change them in some way, so it might as well be something that involves how they are found in nature.

Fragnostic wrote: How about some assistants spawn in perma at roundstart?
The average assistant visits the brig at least once every round.

Some could even spawn in a random space body, like the derelict, AI sat, mining station, etc.
Assistants are no strangers to ending up outside an airlock.

Or...if an assistant gets killed, it respawns as a mouse or something mundane.
They get treated like animals anyway.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:38 pm #33001

It would be a headache for both assistants that spawned in the perma and security, who would have to deal with having a perma full of assistants able to break windows.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:01 pm #33030

Gun Hog wrote:Discouraging Assistant play is as easy as changing one character in the "game_options.txt" file.
Change this:
Code: Select all
## Uncomment to give assistants maint access.
ASSISTANTS_HAVE_MAINT_ACCESS
to this:
Code: Select all
## Uncomment to give assistants maint access.
#ASSISTANTS_HAVE_MAINT_ACCESS

Remove Assistant maint. You want no responsibility, enjoy no access.

Antimattercarp · Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:08 pm

"But they will break things otherwise!" is not a valid excuse for assmaint, they do that anyway

kosmos · Post by **kosmos** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:06 am #33146

Psyentific wrote:Remove Assistant maint. You want no responsibility, enjoy no access.

This. So much this. Also much less antag-chance.

Scott wrote:That would just increase break ins to steal gloves so they could open maint doors.

That's vandalism (and a possible workplace hazard), which is against space law. And as I understand it, breaking space law repeatedly for many consecutive rounds becomes a Rule 1 violation --> OOC issue --> bans.

M0nsoon · Post by **M0nsoon** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:11 am #33148

kosmos wrote:
Scott wrote:That would just increase break ins to steal gloves so they could open maint doors.
That's vandalism (and a possible workplace hazard), which is against space law. And as I understand it, breaking space law repeatedly for many consecutive rounds becomes a Rule 1 violation --> OOC issue --> bans.

Either way if the assistant is smart they'll test that shit on a low traffic door

QuartzCrystal · Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:54 pm

kosmos wrote:That's vandalism (and a possible workplace hazard), which is against space law. And as I understand it, breaking space law repeatedly for many consecutive rounds becomes a Rule 1 violation --> OOC issue --> bans.

The push back I've gotten from banning people from assistant for being serial shitlords has been pretty heavy. I know some other admins just rather not deal with that head ache.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:02 pm #33348

kosmos wrote:
Psyentific wrote:Remove Assistant maint. You want no responsibility, enjoy no access.
This. So much this. Also much less antag-chance.

If they want to roll antag with zero access, more power to them. Part of the design philosophy has been to somewhat balance departments against eachother. Assistants should not be balanced the same way because there's no reason to assume greys should have similar levels of access to similar amounts of the station by default.