/tg/Station 13

I'm currently working out a way to implement this but I'd like to get some ideas from the ideas forum. For each department, what would be some good metrics by which to measure a successfully done job? For example, I could measure the points in cargo against a "par" and count cargo as completing their objective when shift ends with X number of points left unspent. I could do similar things with say, crew infected with harmful viruses, number of certain things created or built, areas lacking power on-station, etc.

Also, depending on how this comes together in the end I'm also considering a overall crew score. That would take into account, positives (things done on station that should be done by the crew in an ordinarily successful shift) and negatives (dead crew, stolen objective items, bloodstained floors) and generate an overall score from that.

Crew objectives would include little shoutouts for the crew member that completed their objective with an associated green or red text flair.

CosmicScientist wrote:Cargo: exported resources & tech (that's still a thing, right?), economy is about cycling rather than stockpiling but then again I guess Nanotrasen would like a station that outputs without input

Try a high score system too where the current score is compared to the highest in the last ~30 days.

A negative for engineering could be time APCs spent without power/breaker turned off/no battery inside.

I'm looking to avoid having to store values for round end and stick to things I can just check when the shuttle docks. So, for example, its easy to ask the server "How many APCs are unpowered right now?" and get a result I can work with. Cross-round logging is definitely out of the question until somebody else is motivated to add it.

CosmicScientist wrote:That's perfectly fair. You could check engineering for if the original or any supermatter shard is around for a positive/negative and maybe give them more points based on round length because it's harder to keep the supermatter from being tampered with or ignored in longer rounds. Station integrity could also be used to mark engineering score.

If there's a way to quickly check all station tiles for burn damage, then you could mark down atmospheric techies based on the idea of "There was a fire, that's your job".

Something I'm seeing that /vg/ uses is they check for air alarms firing. Naturally, that could be cheesed by just disabling all of the station air alarms, but I think that sort of sabotage for points would probably merit a talking to from admins anyway so no reason to code around it and its definitely easier than running atmos checks on every part of the station that should have air.

Goon has these, you could grab some ideas from there.

As I recall they're stuff like:

Chemist - have X units of (chem) in your bloodstream at the end of the shift.

Bartender - Ensure x people are drunk at the end of the shift.

Janitor - Ensure (department) is spotless at the end of the shift.

Security: kill all the antags

BeeSting12 wrote:Security: kill all the antags

Unlikely but I'm considering a counter for arrests in the shuttle brig/on the gulag.

cedarbridge wrote:

BeeSting12 wrote:Security: kill all the antags

Unlikely but I'm considering a counter for arrests in the shuttle brig/on the gulag.

Security gets points based on how many ALIVE traitors they bring with them in the security section of the escape shuttle, or how many of the crew remains uncoverted/alive during team antag modes, like cult or Nuke Ops.

Kel-the-Oblivious wrote:

cedarbridge wrote:

BeeSting12 wrote:Security: kill all the antags

Unlikely but I'm considering a counter for arrests in the shuttle brig/on the gulag.

Security gets points based on how many ALIVE traitors they bring with them in the security section of the escape shuttle, or how many of the crew remains uncoverted/alive during team antag modes, like cult or Nuke Ops.

The system I'm basing this off of has a section dedicated to points for and against the crew based on the number of living heads, the number of dead heads, and the number of arrested/dead headrevs so that's probably pretty doable. Disk tracking for nukeops rounds is a possibility for scoreboarding too but that can get a little tricky and working out the math on exactly how much getting nuked should deduct from the overall score will probably need some thinking/tweaking.

CosmicScientist wrote:Cargo: exported resources & tech (that's still a thing, right?), economy is about cycling rather than stockpiling but then again I guess Nanotrasen would like a station that outputs without input

I removed techports a bit ago because SOME PEOPLE were using them to consistently get in the hundred thousands with minimal work.

I love this idea, and was thinking along the same lines as I was playing the longer rounds on Terry and late-night Sybil. Maybe have them as a request that you can have the HoP send in (or just your department head) and it picks from a random pool of objectives. Give greentext commendations at the end of a round for every one of them completed, maybe have a not too round influential reward system for each objective like a cosmetic officer's uniform. Maybe tie points to your ID card and have it redeem department specific goodies, make the points transferable like the mining points, so you can buy favors or help a certain department save up for a big ticket item.

If we got between round point-saving, maybe start with a fancier uniform of that department, or a rank on your jumpsuit that scales with the level of points you've accumulated.

I feel like there are two ways to go about this from what everyone has been saying, specific objectives or vague objectives. The real question is what do these objectives want to accomplish? Are they for motivating the crew to actually do their jobs? Or are they to encourage people to try different things?


Specific Objectives:

TribeOfBeavers wrote: Chemist - have X units of (chem) in your bloodstream at the end of the shift.

Bartender - Ensure x people are drunk at the end of the shift.

Janitor - Ensure (department) is spotless at the end of the shift.

These, just like antag objectives, mix up gameplay, but also give a different attitude to the job. Personally, after reflecting on it, I enjoy them, but it kind of tells someone how to play the game. It's easier to track individuals, and honestly I think it has all of the fun of an antag with none of the consequences attached.

Non-specific objectives:

CosmicScientist wrote:A negative for engineering could be time APCs spent without power/breaker turned off/no battery inside.

I think this was the original intention of this post. I also think that these are, in a good way, going to be abused, and hard to exactly mention individuals for doing their jobs.Saying that the SM was stable for 98% of the shift, and that APC's were online 96% of the time, that would be more or less engineering who gets credit for it, not individuals. I say they'll be abused, because if someone understands the system, they will find creative ways to make it happen (i.e. if atmos is being measured by how many alarms are going off, disabling the alarms). I think that allows for more interesting situations.

To add to the conversation of measurables:
Service: Meals and drinks made, number of times the mime had talked, number of slips by clown, area cleaned by janitor
Supply: Mining points gained, supply points gained
Science: Points gained, objects built, xenos farmed
Engineering: APC's online over time, atmos alarms over time
Security and Silicon: Number of crew alive (already measured)
Medbay: Points healed in medbay, number of cloned, number of surgery, chems made
Civilians: News posts, job changes, bible wacks

BeeSting12 wrote:Security: kill all the nonantags

fixed

I've thought up some potential objectives, you can restrict objectives to those that are relevant to the job role.

Potential departmental objectives:

• Chemistry/Medical Doctor/Virologist
• Escape alive and in possession of X amounts of [REAGENT] on your person.
• Survive to the end with [REAGENT] in your system.
• Escape with a sample of a [BENEFICIAL/NEGATIVE] disease on your person.
• Escape alive and with no injuries.
• Survive to the end with your appendix removed.

• Science/Geneticist/Roboticist
• Escape alive with [TECH_NODES] on a disk.
• Escape alive with a disk containing [TECH_DESIGN] on a disk.
• Escape alive with a sample of Genetic [SUPERPOWER/DISABILITY] either on an injector or a disk.
• Ensure X amount of cyborgs are on the escape shuttle at the end.
• Escape alive with [COLOUR] slime core on your person.
• Survive to the end after changing your species to [SPECIES_TYPE].
• Escape alive with X amount of augmented body parts.

• Command
• Escape alive with [YOUR_HIGH_RISK_ITEM].
• Survive to the end with X number of [DEPARTMENT_SUBORDINATES] still alive.
• [Pick random departmental objective (CMO gets medical objectives, RD gets science objectives etc.)]

• Security/Warden/Detective
• Escape alive with a full set of security equipment (Roundstart sec officer items).
• Escape alive in the shuttle's security area.
• Survive to the end with X% of the crew still alive.
• Survive to the end with donut in your system.
• Survive to the end whilst smoking.

• AI/Cyborg
• Survive to the end with your master AI still alive.
• Survive to the end with [pick(CORELAWSET/PURGED)].
• Survive to the end with X amount of cyborgs synced to you.
• Escape alive on the emergency shuttle.

Do not ever encourage security to arrest/hunt antags they do that well enough.

Encouraging security to not execute all caught antags is good.

Having confirmed antags in the escape shuttle brig alive and well is definitely a worthy objective, and bonus points for any syndicate gear you stole off them too as a sec officer

Lumbermancer wrote:Encouraging security to not execute all caught antags is good.

This was my thought. It also makes arrests more valuable than summary executions which also makes for more room for antagonist play. Sec wants to keep their perps under lock and key so they can stuff them on the shuttle for maximum e-peen, antags have more time and more opportunities for sec to fuck up and allow their escape. Antags busting out other antags to form alliances is already a thing but kinda gets kneecapped in the current meta where sec just executes and loots.

cedarbridge wrote:

Lumbermancer wrote:Encouraging security to not execute all caught antags is good.

This was my thought. It also makes arrests more valuable than summary executions which also makes for more room for antagonist play. Sec wants to keep their perps under lock and key so they can stuff them on the shuttle for maximum e-peen, antags have more time and more opportunities for sec to fuck up and allow their escape. Antags busting out other antags to form alliances is already a thing but kinda gets kneecapped in the current meta where sec just executes and loots.

I like the idea of security not killing people left and right if they are actually an antag, since it makes for more interesting situations, it actually means utilizing perma or the gulag, and when getting caught as an antag, it doesn't end the game for you. However, making security more difficult is already an uphill battle.

I've said this multiple times and ways that security is underplayed. Just last night I went on and saw 87 people online Basil, only to see 2 security officers, a warden, a detective, and no HoS.

sec leaderboards, where the sec team is given points for number of live antags under arrest at round end, and points deducted for false imprisonment. strive to become the best redshirt you can be!

Arresting and capturing antags are both ultimately hunting antags. Security should not be encouraged to do that more than they are now (I'd say there's enough encouragement.)

Sec "leaderboards" should be like, number of points mined at the gulag, or %age of sec and command staff still alive at roundend.

Security's job is to keep the peace and protect company assets. They should be credited for all surviving crew and station integrity, not dunked antags.

RandomMarine wrote:Security's job is to keep the peace and protect company assets. They should be credited for all surviving crew and station integrity, not dunked antags.

I like this, but it is hard to gage what would be security's doing and what is medical or engineering. Making sure certain items are kept away from antagonists might be a better method of scoring.

Having the sec staff run around trying to secure important secret documents and technology before a shuttle call would kind of fit their job of protecting company assets.

In regards to security I'm currently looking at:

-Antags held in the security section of the shuttle (I'm toying with the security escape pod too but that might generate false positives.)
*I'm not looking to discourage sec from chasing antags or drive them to exclusively chase antags but I am looking to encourage sec to 1) arrest and hold over guess and execute and 2) reward sec for doing a good job protecting crew and material from corporate enemies.

-Contraband/Secret Docs/Special Value Items held in a special contraband locker on the shuttle or held by an officer in the sec section of the shuttle
*Encourages sec keeping tabs on the steal objectives and defending them from antags.
*Might require some tending by admins if sec just starts trying to roundstart confiscate or pile all of the scoring items for free points on the station score/etc
*Probably won't impose a negative penalty directly due to modes that don't have steal objectives and instead using a negative score penalty for each completed antag objective.

Either or both of these are being considered for security's contribution to the overall station score.

RandomMarine wrote:Security's job is to keep the peace and protect company assets. They should be credited for all surviving crew and station integrity, not dunked antags.

And you do that how? By dunking antags.

Lumbermancer wrote:

RandomMarine wrote:Security's job is to keep the peace and protect company assets. They should be credited for all surviving crew and station integrity, not dunked antags.

And you do that how? By dunking antags.

stopping vandalism, enforcing law and preventing crew infighting, mandating and maintaining access restrictions, and opposing dereliction of duty on the engineering crew's part

bman wrote:

Lumbermancer wrote:

RandomMarine wrote:Security's job is to keep the peace and protect company assets. They should be credited for all surviving crew and station integrity, not dunked antags.

And you do that how? By dunking antags.

stopping vandalism, enforcing law and preventing crew infighting, mandating and maintaining access restrictions, and opposing dereliction of duty on the engineering crew's part

Unfortunately, there's not really a good way to measure those things that wouldn't probably get measured in some other way. Vandalism I guess could count how many tiles are scribbled on by crayons/spray paint but then you're into janitor territory and discouraging mime/clown/chaplain gimmicks. Station damage and station integrity are already being taken into account in a different section of the scoring.

As a semi-related side thought, I don't think we need a goal by goal breakdown of the scoring on the final report. A simple "Sec contributed X, Medical Y, Supply Z, to total score ZZZ" would suffice and not take up a ton of space on a round report that already gets pretty long.

bman wrote:

Lumbermancer wrote:

RandomMarine wrote:Security's job is to keep the peace and protect company assets. They should be credited for all surviving crew and station integrity, not dunked antags.

And you do that how? By dunking antags.

stopping vandalism, enforcing law and preventing crew infighting, mandating and maintaining access restrictions, and opposing dereliction of duty on the engineering crew's part

Only during Extended.

I think, that since NT is heartless gigacorporation,Which can sacrifice entire stations for questionable reasons, I think, that station objectives should be morally questionable and dangerous as possible. Examples:
1.raise 3 generations of aliens on living humans.
2.test these eldritch thing with possibility of something horrible.
3.catch collossus and escort it to cargo shuttle somehow.
After completion of task, heads should be rewarded with something awesome.possibly bunch different op things+greentext at the end of round.
So, crew will have choice: help in completion of task(and chance to be awarded too), or mutiny against too horrible actions.
Also security will help heads to suppress crew in case is someone isn't okay with such actios.

IF EVERYONE IS AN ANTAG NO ONE IS AN ANTAG

if the station has a sufficiently high percentage of nonhuman crew give command staff an objective that affects them negatively for maximum RACE WAR

Selea wrote:I think, that since NT is heartless gigacorporation,Which can sacrifice entire stations for questionable reasons, I think, that station objectives should be morally questionable and dangerous as possible. Examples:
1.raise 3 generations of aliens on living humans.
2.test these eldritch thing with possibility of something horrible.
3.catch collossus and escort it to cargo shuttle somehow.
After completion of task, heads should be rewarded with something awesome.possibly bunch different op things+greentext at the end of round.
So, crew will have choice: help in completion of task(and chance to be awarded too), or mutiny against too horrible actions.
Also security will help heads to suppress crew in case is someone isn't okay with such actios.

Entirely outside of the scope of this project.

cedarbridge wrote:I'm currently working out a way to implement this but I'd like to get some ideas from the ideas forum. For each department, what would be some good metrics by which to measure a successfully done job? For example, I could measure the points in cargo against a "par" and count cargo as completing their objective when shift ends with X number of points left unspent. I could do similar things with say, crew infected with harmful viruses, number of certain things created or built, areas lacking power on-station, etc.

Also, depending on how this comes together in the end I'm also considering a overall crew score. That would take into account, positives (things done on station that should be done by the crew in an ordinarily successful shift) and negatives (dead crew, stolen objective items, bloodstained floors) and generate an overall score from that.

Crew objectives would include little shoutouts for the crew member that completed their objective with an associated green or red text flair.

Can you make miscelanious objectives to people to fr more rp. Like "You know this old friend/crush from earth" Or some shit like that. You know to get people talking

aradsten wrote:

cedarbridge wrote:I'm currently working out a way to implement this but I'd like to get some ideas from the ideas forum. For each department, what would be some good metrics by which to measure a successfully done job? For example, I could measure the points in cargo against a "par" and count cargo as completing their objective when shift ends with X number of points left unspent. I could do similar things with say, crew infected with harmful viruses, number of certain things created or built, areas lacking power on-station, etc.

Also, depending on how this comes together in the end I'm also considering a overall crew score. That would take into account, positives (things done on station that should be done by the crew in an ordinarily successful shift) and negatives (dead crew, stolen objective items, bloodstained floors) and generate an overall score from that.

Crew objectives would include little shoutouts for the crew member that completed their objective with an associated green or red text flair.

Can you make miscelanious objectives to people to fr more rp. Like "You know this old friend/crush from earth" Or some shit like that. You know to get people talking

I'd rather avoid imputing character traits to people's characters to substitute their own. RP is good and important but it falls flat when your character is literally written for you.

What if you had a menu you could access from someplace like near the HoP line, where you could choose from a category of objectives to add to your round. Have production/department related stuff come from a centcomm manager, interdepartmental relation stuff from the HR department head, and RP related stuff from a wellness counselor or something. Could give it to the HoP to assign to people as well, so they have more to do after the early round all access begging, or maybe from the department heads offices.

Floiven wrote:What if you had a menu you could access from someplace like near the HoP line, where you could choose from a category of objectives to add to your round. Have production/department related stuff come from a centcomm manager, interdepartmental relation stuff from the HR department head, and RP related stuff from a wellness counselor or something. Could give it to the HoP to assign to people as well, so they have more to do after the early round all access begging, or maybe from the department heads offices.

There could possibly be room to develop a "quota" system that displays to the HoP or department specific head of staff the assigned objectives for whatever department role is assigned to do something. It would give the head in question something to ride their underlings about.

Assistant objective: ensure all donuts on station are eaten by the end of the round

that's security

Means greyshirt actually has reason to break into or reason with command to acquire objective

GarlicBread wrote:Means greyshirt actually has reason to break into or reason with command to acquire objective

Since when did greyshirts ever need a reason to break into somewhere they didn't belong in the first place?

player set kpis seem like a good feature though probably one that wouldnt get used regularly