/tg/Station 13

We're in a bit of an antag crisis right now. There are only 5 and half different types of main antags (ling and malf are usually rolled into traitor): traitorchan, nuclear operatives, blood cult, wizard, and revolution. Clock cult is gone for the foreseeable future, Blob has been relegated to side antag, and Cult is highly controversial right now, and people have called for half of traitorchan to be removed pending reworks. The newest antag currently in rotation is from 2010. Three of those antags have objectives that involve immediately end the round upon completion. Needless to say, we should revisit some removed antags and see if we can rework them into something reasonable. I feel that Devil is a good candidate for consideration. The concept is cool, but it's a bit too high RP for a server like TG. People either try to robust the devil or take the contracts as a free license to tide. By removing contracts and adding what I like to call a reverse conversion mechanic, I feel that Devil can be made into an original and engaging game mode that provides a solid challenge for all involved while not being apocalyptic to the station.

The idea

• Devils no longer summon contracts. Instead, they have an ability called "create forbidden fruit". This will take any consumable item held in-hand (food, medicine, anything you put in or on your body) and curse it. The next person to consume the item will lose their soul to the devil. The devils will need to be strategic when laying various trap items around the station.
• Devils gain various abilities as they consume more souls, such as jaunt and summon pitchfork. However, no more lesser devil and archdevil forms. Just more magic abilities. They also gradually gain more visual cues as they collect souls (skin turns red, horns, devil wings and tail, etc.)
• The devil's goal is to collect and maintain a certain number of souls
• Devils still have a bane and banishment. The soulless learn the true name of the devil upon having their soul stolen. To compensate for the fact that devils no longer have overpowered forms, you cannot kill them by killing them over and over again. They will only relinquish their souls upon being permanently killed.

Now, the crux of this idea is what happens to the people who get their souls stolen. No more greytide contracts. Instead, we get:


The Soulless

• Upon losing their soul, the Soulless gets an objective: "[true devil name] has stolen your soul. Recover your soul, at any cost." The only way to recover a soul is to kill the devil that stole it. This means that all of the Devil's victims are going to have an objective to murder the fuck out of him and free valids to do it. The more souls the devil has, the more Soulless he's going to have gunning for him. It's reverse conversion. The objective is not a free license to grief, but it does mean that the Soulless can take matters into their own hands.
• Soulless people turn pale with white hair, making them very recognizable to the crew at a glance. The chaplain can spot Soulless by examining them.
• The soulless suffer from brain damage. They have difficulty using computers, as they will space out every now and then. They also gain a random trauma. However, they also randomly gain one of several random boons to give them a fighting chance against the devil. Boons include wielding two-handed weapons with one hand, x-ray vision, stun resist, toxin filter, regenerative coma, etc.
• If you die as a Soulless, your body turns to ash and you cannot be revived or cloned in any way.
• If a soulless is killed, the devil loses the soul they got from them. This means that the devil has to do everything in their power to keep the Soulless that are trying to murder them alive. It also means that a desperate crew might decide to kill off some Soulless to weaken the devil. Their objective will allow them to retaliate if this happens.

These mechanics would make devil into a unique and flavorful round type that isn't quite as apocalyptic as something like cult or ops, nor as cancerous as some failed conversion modes. We're really in need of some new main antags, and a reverse conversion mode is something that to my knowledge has never been done before.

Edit: A few ideas for abilities. Devil "levels up" with each soul stolen. If the devil loses a soul from a soulless dying, they lose an ability.

1. Infernal jaunt. Basically the same as wizard jaunt, but a bit shorter and with fitting fire effects
2. The devil gains glowing eyes, which make him slightly more noticable and grant night vision
3. Soul Siphon. Channeled ability similar to changeling absorb. Steals the victim's soul. Channel speed scales with moodlets
4. The devil's skin turns red, and becomes immune to fire.
5. Summon pitchfork. Summons a highly robust two melee weapon on use. Hurts any non-soulless that tries to pick it up. Using it again recalls the same pitchfork, no matter where it is
6. The devil grows horns and a tail, and can now breathe fire
7. The devil grows wings, which function just like regular wings

Edit 2: A few more ideas for devil powers

• On death, the devil can take over the body of a soulless
• Toggle to suppress demonic traits, at some cost
• Some kind of stun for the devil

This reverse conversion idea is inspired.

I think that core mechanic is a brilliant way to have an antag be self-balancing, promoting success for bragging rights and not wholly destructive or snowbally.

The forbidden fruit conversion mechanic itself I think could take a look at though, because it's something too easily avoidable once a devil has reached enough success that everyone is aware of them. This being one of several abilities would be a great idea though. Perhaps some other subtle conversion methods like the ability to make an area unholy, slowly converting people within it if they don't leave, some integration with moodlets (Depressing people enough into committing suicide, where they become soulless) or being able to spawn powerful items or wealth similarly to contracts, where they convert over time.

Those ideas are wonderful, is anyone going to code them, though?

I'm not quite sure how the devil is supposed to be killed. What will stop a souless from screaming "ree devil" the moment they get converted, and then ALL OF THE STATION gunning down to kill it. Or, what will stop ALL OF THE STATION from gunning down on both devil and souless, whenever a souless is discovered.

@Sticky: We'd definitely need a mid-tier alternate conversion for the devil. I'd want to avoid making individual devils too powerful. The moodlet one is a good idea. A channeled conversion that works faster on depressed people.

@InsaneHyena: I know that ""ideas guys"" are a meme, but I strongly believe that this isn't just something I think is cool but rather something that the server needs. Antagonists are painfully stale at the moment, and the reverse conversion concept has been very positively received everywhere I've discussed it. I'd be extremely grateful if a coder picked this up, and I know a lot of other people would be too.

@Lumber: I was thinking that the forbidden fruit would have a bit of a delay on it. The victim won't know the devil's mortal name, just their infernal name. This will give the devil a little ramp up time to get comfortable with their abilities and to plan out a strategy before the crew finds out exactly who they are (visual cues after a few souls). Devils would be killed the same way they are now, by (temporarily) killing them and performing a banishment ritual. The "beat the dead horse" approach feels a bit cheap. You're right about the Soulless, they'll want to hide their identities. Granted, they'll also have free valids to defend themselves in equal measure. Hell, maybe you'll even get little Soulless enclaves in maint. It'll be fun.


Keep in mind that there'd be a few spawning, and that I don't want these to be round-enders. A threat that needs to be taken seriously, but not catastrophic in nature.

How are you going to handle robot devils? Unless you also want to give them horns, wings, a tail and a red paintjob

Anonmare wrote:How are you going to handle robot devils? Unless you also want to give them horns, wings, a tail and a red paintjob

[youtube]MLPkKZS6q9k[/youtube]

Anonmare wrote:How are you going to handle robot devils? Unless you also want to give them horns, wings, a tail and a red paintjob

You could just always make them sprout wings and a tail anyway. Getting augmented to hide the red will only buy you a little time

I'm not the most experienced, but more main antagonists to keep people on their toes seems like a good idea, and your plan for it well thought out.

Umber_Neno wrote:I'm not the most experienced, but more main antagonists to keep people on their toes seems like a good idea, and your plan for it well thought out.

Glad you like it. Primary antags are in a sorry state right now. At minimum we need 2 new ones, maybe 3 to be safe. Off the top of my head, when I started playing in 2014 we had traitors (or traitorchan), changelings, blood cult, malfunctioning AI, nuclear operatives, blob, wizard, and revolution. Soon after we got gangs and clock cult. In the span of about two years we've gone from 10 distinct gamemodes to 5 and a half.

This is a great idea.

I've gone ahead and come up with a sample ability line. Tried to keep it relatively simple and not egregiously powerful, since I imagine having several devils at once:

1. Infernal jaunt. Basically the same as wizard jaunt, but a bit shorter and with fitting fire effects
2. The devil gains glowing eyes, which make him slightly more noticable and grant night vision
3. Soul Siphon. Channeled ability similar to changeling absorb. Steals the victim's soul. Channel speed scales with moodlets
4. The devil's skin turns red, and becomes immune to fire.
5. Summon pitchfork. Summons a highly robust two melee weapon on use. Hurts any non-soulless that tries to pick it up. Using it again recalls the same pitchfork, no matter where it is
6. The devil grows horns and a tail, and can now breathe fire
7. The devil grows wings, which function just like regular wings

It would definitely be an improvement over the current devil mode

Only problem with this is that I can definitely see the crew just killing themselves the second their soul is stolen to deny the devil of any good boy points

PKPenguin321 wrote:Only problem with this is that I can definitely see the crew just killing themselves the second their soul is stolen to deny the devil of any good boy points

That's a valid concern, although I'd say it's more of a policy issue. Along the lines of cult sac targets gibbing themselves, heads hiding in space during rev, converted cultists killing themselves, etc. You could easily just make it so they're ghostroled when they attempt to suicide. Besides, who would turn down valid salad?

Luke Cox wrote:Besides, who would turn down valid salad?

you'd be surprised, there are people that actually WANT to be banned from rev for example

PKPenguin321 wrote:

Luke Cox wrote:Besides, who would turn down valid salad?

you'd be surprised, there are people that actually WANT to be banned from rev for example

God damn people have gone soft.

Either way, having the ability to ghostrole people goes a long ways to alleviating this problem.

Maybe make soulless that kill themselves still count for greentext but not for powers. After all, the devil's still got them.

"Your soul has been stolen"

DONT EAT FOOD, DEVILS

And then the devil has only one soul while everybody hoards vending machines

Saegrimr wrote:"Your soul has been stolen"

DONT EAT FOOD, DEVILS

And then the devil has only one soul while everybody hoards vending machines

You could move the channeled convert up to 1 or two souls in that case. Also, the devil would be able to curse things like items in medkits. Could be a little overpowered, but maybe you could let the devil curse whole vending machines.

Saegrimr wrote:"Your soul has been stolen"

DONT EAT FOOD, DEVILS

And then the devil has only one soul while everybody hoards vending machines

>Not breaking the vending machines
Do you even powergame?

I'm not particularly attached to the whole forbidden fruit idea. If anyone has anything that might work better, by all means, have at it.

just let them curse any object in the game

oranges wrote:just let them curse any object in the game

>curses the spare

somerandomguy wrote:

oranges wrote:just let them curse any object in the game

>curses the spare

for a longass time I've been wanting to code chameleon bombs that explode when picked up and the spare ID was definitely gonna be on the list of things for it to be

Screemonster wrote:

somerandomguy wrote:

oranges wrote:just let them curse any object in the game

>curses the spare

for a longass time I've been wanting to code chameleon bombs that explode when picked up and the spare ID was definitely gonna be on the list of things for it to be

literally the explosive holoparasite

I was afraid that making every object curse-able might have been OP, but I suppose you could make it function like the explosive holo's trap

Luke Cox wrote:I'm not particularly attached to the whole forbidden fruit idea. If anyone has anything that might work better, by all means, have at it.

Make it so any consumable can be cursed, like patches, pills, syringes, etc. Nobody can resist using that free bruise pack in the middle of the hall, and if you wanted to be especially devilish you could let them curse things like rechargers or sleepers. Fits with the forbidden fruit theme too.

Godzillan wrote:

Luke Cox wrote:I'm not particularly attached to the whole forbidden fruit idea. If anyone has anything that might work better, by all means, have at it.

Make it so any consumable can be cursed, like patches, pills, syringes, etc. Nobody can resist using that free bruise pack in the middle of the hall, and if you wanted to be especially devilish you could let them curse things like rechargers or sleepers. Fits with the forbidden fruit theme too.

That was originally the plan. Any item you eat or use on yourself. Oranges might be onto something though. Plus it would be easier for the coders, since they can just repurpose the chaos holoparasite's ability for it.

also, retheme it so it's not a devil but something scifi, like a cybernetic soul reaper or a 4 dimensional conciousness temporarily manifesting on the 3dimensional planes.

oranges wrote:also, retheme it so it's not a devil but something scifi, like a cybernetic soul reaper or a 4 dimensional conciousness temporarily manifesting on the 3dimensional planes.

We'll call them Cyberdemons. Only way to kill them is to get R&D to build the BFG.

I figure that stuff like the name/aesthetics/etc will be decided by whoever wants to pick this up. Personally, I'd consider making it demon instead of devil, since it's a straight up soul thief rather than someone who tricks people into giving them up in return for power. Go nuts with the lore and coat of paint, I don't think anyone will care as long as we get our reverse conversion gameplay.

Forgive the forbidden double post, but I've gotten some more feedback on this via discord. I've updated the OP with a few more details. Namely, Soullessness needs to be more annoying. A few ideas include giving them moderate brain damage and a random trauma in addition to the unclonability. However, they should also receive a random boon to give them a fighting chance against the devil. Also added some ideas for devil abilities. We could consider revamping death and revival for the devil. Upon death, the devil could choose the body of a soulless to inhabit, on a long cooldown.

Hey, I'm the original coder for Devil.

I really like these ideas.

Just a few things to note about my original intent for devils:

It was an intentional design choice to make devils and lawyers interact. Lawyers basically have no mechanical purpose whatsoever... so I gave them one. I also had interactions from the librarian (Now called the curator). I also gave the chaplain very little actual power against the devils. There's TWO things I can think of that make the chaplain relevant, and that's the ban preventing attacking a priest, and the banishment ritual involving holy water. I didn't want the chaplain to be the crew's sole saving grace against ANOTHER roundtype.

pidey wrote:Hey, I'm the original coder for Devil.

I really like these ideas.

Just a few things to note about my original intent for devils:

It was an intentional design choice to make devils and lawyers interact. Lawyers basically have no mechanical purpose whatsoever... so I gave them one. I also had interactions from the librarian (Now called the curator). I also gave the chaplain very little actual power against the devils. There's TWO things I can think of that make the chaplain relevant, and that's the ban preventing attacking a priest, and the banishment ritual involving holy water. I didn't want the chaplain to be the crew's sole saving grace against ANOTHER roundtype.

Everyone knows that lawyers are there to antagonize the HoS :^)

Definitely agree on the chaplain not being the primary threat to the devil. The lawyer dealing with the devil makes a lot of sense from a thematic standpoint with your version of devil, although that's a bit lost on mine since they're less traditional devils and more soul thieves. I suppose lawyers could be immune to soul theft and other devil powers, since lawyers clearly have no souls.

HoS, Devil, what's the difference?