Future of gamemodes brainstorm

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CPTANT
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Future of gamemodes brainstorm

Post by CPTANT » #401299

We have reached a point where datum antags are almost completely implemented, however the question remains on how to use the system to expand upon what gamemodes offer now.

One of the question that needs answering is how to deal with conversion of players that are already antag.

There are 4 options:
1. Antags can't be converted
2. Antag's can be converted and lose their old status
3. Antag's can be converted and hold both statuses, Antag objectives are more important than team objectives
4. Antag's can be converted and hold both statuses, team objectives are more important than antag objectives

I think 3 is pretty unworkable. I personally think I prefer option 1 or 2.


Second question is how to implement side antags into all the gamemodes.

I think every mode should have a chance of spawning side antags at roundstart. These side antags might reduce the number of "primary" antags or just be added on top. There should also be a small chance of just having 2 primary antags at once. Multiple side antags can also be a mode upon itself.

Traitors should also be a side antag in other modes.

The word "side" antag becomes a bit of a misnomer though. Maybe it would be better to just scrap the distinction between the two or have "main" and "minor" antags.

Traitor escape objectives should be expanded with "or survive the events occurring on the station" or something for modes that have no shuttle call.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Anonmare
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Re: Future of gamemodes brainstorm

Post by Anonmare » #401316

I've suggested a priority system, similar to how the trauma resilience system works. It basically states that antagonists with conversion can only convert another antagonist of lesser strength.

#0 - non-antagonist crew, non-antagonist silicons, Survivors, non-head revs, Nightmares, Xenomorphs, Abductors, Swarmers, emagged/hacked cyborgs, Centcom officials
#1 - Revheads, cultists (all types), Traitors, Changelings, Nuke OPs, Malfunctioning AIs
#2 - Wizards, Blob Overminds, Revenants, Drones

The list is subject to alterations if future antagonists are added (Shadowlings used to be in the same strength as a Wizard) but the general idea is that In most situations, primary antagonists with conversion cannot convert another primary antagonist, though with the current exception of non-head revolutionaries.
This is simply for balance as revheads convert so fast that they'd simply starve out cults for converts far too fast for them to respond. Those of strength level #2 are (with the exception of wizard) are supposed to be unconvertable but I'm preparing for edge cases and Wizards are far, far too strong to ever be convertable. Their will save is too high.
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Luke Cox
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Re: Future of gamemodes brainstorm

Post by Luke Cox » #401326

Duct-taping a bunch of game modes that were designed to operate independently together is going to create an untold clusterfuck. Keep distinct round types. Datum antags were a mistake hyped up by a buzzword.

Edit: The primary antag system should stay as is, with one concrete antag type per round. Secondary antags could make good use of datum.
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CPTANT
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Re: Future of gamemodes brainstorm

Post by CPTANT » #401331

Luke Cox wrote:Duct-taping a bunch of game modes that were designed to operate independently together is going to create an untold clusterfuck. Keep distinct round types. Datum antags were a mistake hyped up by a buzzword.

Edit: The primary antag system should stay as is, with one concrete antag type per round. Secondary antags could make good use of datum.
:roll:
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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NanookoftheNorth
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Re: Future of gamemodes brainstorm

Post by NanookoftheNorth » #401353

Creating two types of antags isn't a bad idea for a single round, however, difficulty for the crew and security team would be a whole new ball game.

The issue, which Luke Cox mentioned in some manner, two different types of antags requires balance for both. So for example, revolutionaries typically don't have many tools at their disposal, their numbers are their strength. Traitors on the other hand have literally only tools to solve their problems. Combine those into one round, revolutionaries with traitor tools without a doubt are OP.

Antags working against each other makes some sense, but for the above example still risks giving them the tools to be OP. Xenos and blob being thrown into a round makes sense, as the crew as a whole has to work against them, cult or not, to win. Also, the blob and xenos don't have equipment that the other antags could take advantage of.

Revs and other conversion gametypes are about exponential growth, while traitors and changlings are static. Throwing them on the same side, or even in the same station would totally give the conversion games an extreme advantage.
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CPTANT
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Re: Future of gamemodes brainstorm

Post by CPTANT » #401370

NanookoftheNorth wrote:(...)

Revs and other conversion gametypes are about exponential growth, while traitors and changlings are static. Throwing them on the same side, or even in the same station would totally give the conversion games an extreme advantage.
Not if they are also antagonistic against each other.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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NanookoftheNorth
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Re: Future of gamemodes brainstorm

Post by NanookoftheNorth » #401472

CPTANT wrote:
NanookoftheNorth wrote:(...)

Revs and other conversion gametypes are about exponential growth, while traitors and changlings are static. Throwing them on the same side, or even in the same station would totally give the conversion games an extreme advantage.
Not if they are also antagonistic against each other.
NanookoftheNorth wrote:Combine those into one round, revolutionaries with traitor tools without a doubt are OP... Antags working against each other makes some sense, but for the above example still risks giving them the tools to be OP.
TL;DR Even if they were against each other, antags would have the potential to be OP.
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Luke Cox
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Re: Future of gamemodes brainstorm

Post by Luke Cox » #401529

The revs and cultists would quickly suffocate the traitors and changelings. You'd also get ling revs/cultists and revs/cultists with syndicate gear. I'll let you all imagine how that would go.
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Selea
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Re: Future of gamemodes brainstorm

Post by Selea » #402080

I think, that antags should be:
1. Non roundending. They have their own goals, which can be harmful to crew. But if they win or fail, it shouldn't be end of world.
2. Limited selfantags:
A. Wishgranter-like artefacts. So miner or space ezplorer could find it and become antag at will. But only one. And not every round.
B. Antag ghost roles. I think, that more guys like ash liggers/syndie scientists is good idea. They should be able to make influence on round. For example, sindie bases should be able to help traitors. With spying, item production, or even direct action on station. This ghost roles should be binded to current gamemode. Spawn of some "antag" ruins could be random event. For example, spawn of small pirate shuttle with sleepers. Pirates will get objective to infiltrate station and steal something.
C. More ways to become monster like slime or morph. So you can become antag, but you will get highly specialised and very limited abilities. Yes, you can go wreak shit. But one slime isn't big threat.
This way, we will make antagonism to be act of free will. Not just dice. But numbers and power of them still will be restricted.
3.Morally questionable. Their objectives should be less entirely bad. And might have understandable reasons.
NT isn't very nice guys. And could have enemies, which are actually good side.
4. Not entirely antags. Centom could give special objectives to some guys. For example, perform some cruel/dangerous experiments (on humans) to get some reward. It isn't antag to heads. But could be dangerous for crew. So you must decide, will you be loyal to your bosses, or loyal to humanity.
5. Conversion must involve act of free will. You shouldn't be forced to choose side. Also bigger population of antags should have disadvantages. Like limited resource, shared among all antags of this type in round. Or lesser stealth. So after certain number of members, further conversion will be more harmful, than beneficial.
6. Reverse conversion should be possible in some cases.
7. Antags should be more funny. Like animal rights squad, who tryes to free monkeys/slimes on station.
Or revs, which based on tinfoil hats instead of magic flashes(they revolt, because thinks, that commands are illuminates).
8. Should be more antags, which can appear in round, but can be prevented with some actions. Examples:
A. Romerol could be more acessible, but could have relatively easy prepared vaccine. So probablity of outbreak is highly depends on work of CMO.
B. Pests. Space janitor could be way cooler profession, if it will be not clean'n'slip guy, but exterminator. For examle, he must explore maint to get rid of blob eggs, rat nests or maybe even xeno eggs.
C. Yes, some may choose antag ghost roles. But their influence could be prevented with some actions. For example bioweapon scientists must be able to send delivery rockets with their creations to station. But station shield will block this rockets.
Last edited by Selea on Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Selea
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Re: Future of gamemodes brainstorm

Post by Selea » #402083

For example good idea is reverse revolution. Where heads gets objective like:
HOS: demote and replace captain. Captain:purge inĥumans. CMO: make syringe gun and go hunt traitor.
Crew must realize,that command are jerks and they should demote them.
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Re: Future of gamemodes brainstorm

Post by Shadowflame909 » #402228

Every game mode is pretty much hated. I'm not sure if a new game mode wouldn't instantly gain a whole lot of criticism. For being too powerful for the non antag(wtf unfun)/ the antag(Also unfun).
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NanookoftheNorth
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Re: Future of gamemodes brainstorm

Post by NanookoftheNorth » #402422

Shadowflame909 wrote:Every game mode is pretty much hated.
Keep sipping the hateraid man... I don't know who you're talking to, but people like each game mode, I'd say everyone's least favorite would probably be extended, personally mine is Nuke Ops since it throws away most of the mechanics that I enjoy about the game.

Selena, the way that /tg/ is set up is that if you are an antagonist, you no longer need to follow spacelaw and do whatever is deemed necessary to achieve your goals. It would be one hell of a culture shift to change that mindset. Even if you have easy or passive goals, someone would still go on a killing or bombing spree.

I think providing any additional support towards antagonists on the station make a major balance change. I can see where you're coming from, looking at cogscarabs for example. I think you'd need to nerf traitors outright to add some sort of support role after death. Maybe starting with 5 TC, then syndicate scientists send TC to traitors by farming it from plants or something. Personally, I don't think it's worth the effort as there are already plenty things to do as a ghost.
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Re: Future of gamemodes brainstorm

Post by Selea » #403658

Why do I think, that more antags should be ghost roles?
Because:
1.People, who are willing to be antags will go as observers. If they won't be able to find desired location, they will stay observers.So there will be less roundstart suicides.
2.People, who constantly rollng for antags are mostly shitters in my opinion.So, if they will too often stay observers, they will stop playing.Which will make community more healthy.
3.Antag bases outside station makes more meaingful construction and maintaining station defence systems.As well as space exploration.
4.Syndie bases will make Syndicate feel more like organisation, neither just abstract force.
5.Prevention of interaction between antags on station and ghost roles will be new thing for security to do.
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NanookoftheNorth
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Re: Future of gamemodes brainstorm

Post by NanookoftheNorth » #404094

Selea wrote:Why do I think, that more antags should be ghost roles?
Because:
1.People, who are willing to be antags will go as observers. If they won't be able to find desired location, they will stay observers.So there will be less roundstart suicides.
2.People, who constantly rollng for antags are mostly shitters in my opinion.So, if they will too often stay observers, they will stop playing.Which will make community more healthy.
3.Antag bases outside station makes more meaingful construction and maintaining station defence systems.As well as space exploration.
4.Syndie bases will make Syndicate feel more like organisation, neither just abstract force.
5.Prevention of interaction between antags on station and ghost roles will be new thing for security to do.
Your points are solid, your point about less roundstart suicides is great. However, it fails to address my point of balance and fails do address my point of mindset change. It's literally a rule: Lone antagonists can do whatever they want. We can change rules, but I doubt that anyone would be behind putting leashes on antags.
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Re: Future of gamemodes brainstorm

Post by Selea » #404216

Nah. Not a problem. They just should be provided with only certain amount of possibilities as balance factor.
For example, we can let bioweapon scientists to launch cargo rocket to station with their creations. So traitors on station could use their creations. But station shield can block rocket. And BS artillery can evaporate them.

Also there are ash liggers. They theoretically can raid station and wreak havoc. But it will take pretty much effort.

This change actually doesn't affect antag actions much. Because they still wreak shit. But instead of lottery, there will be race for antag places.

Selfantag isn't bad in certain conditions:
1. Selfantag places are limited. You can become antag by will. But only certain amount of people can do so.
Exception is fairly weak antags, which works only in numbers. Like ash liggers.
2. Much of selfantags should be easily countered, if someone going to do their job. Examples:
Wishgranter avatar should be detectable with med hud. So if someone gonna check miners once for a while, he wouldn't be big problem.
Bioweapon scientists with delivery rocket. Countered by station shield.
Etc.
3.More power selfantagging will bring--more drawbacks will be applied. For example, if you becomes some kind of space monster, oxygen becomes dangerous to you.
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Re: Future of gamemodes brainstorm

Post by Shadowflame909 » #404696

I still feel like we haven't had a stable mode since 2008, and even our stable modes are unstable now. (RIP LING YOU SUCK NOW) If another mode comes along, they're gonna get xhuis'd (My example word for treated terrible without respect) 0/10 /TG/ will never recover!!
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