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Fuck lawyers, lets' change them.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:31 am
by Jacough
So lawyers are basically a joke for the most part right now. Trying to do some actual lawyering will usually just result in you being ignored or getting your ass thrown the fuck out of the brig by some self righteous prick. So let's ditch these useless faggots and go with something a little more useful. I half jokingly proposed this on singulo a while back but honestly I think it might be useful. Basically what I propose is that we swap lawyers out for "light security officers".

To put it simply, they'd basically just be the equivalent of mall security. As far as armaments go they'd be limited to a disabler, pepper spray, a security flashlight, and cuffs. As far as uniform goes, they'd have a red security suit, black cap, and black shoes (shoes, not jack boots). They're too expendable to have the pretty armor and helmets the big boys in security get access to. They'd retain their original access but also have a new form of access as well, specifically for two special cells that they can only select short predetermined time limits for (think 1-3 minutes). The role would basically be meant for taking care of the small time riff raff like vandals and slightly roudy crew members rather than taking down energy sword wielding traitors and spell slinging wizards.

You're probably wondering "why the fuck would I want to play this shitty role?"

The idea I had in mind was that it'd be sort of like the "assistant" of the security branch. Being a small time rent a cop with significantly reduced access, you'd have much less responsibilities and possibly more leeway in terms of what you can and can't do. It'd serve as an entry point for the less robust and newer players to get into the security branch to help them get a better idea of what's expected of them without flat out unloading all the responsibilities of hunting down nuke ops, changlings, wizards, etc. at once. It could also serve as a sort of punishment role. If an admin feels that a player's being shitcurity but not too terribly shitty he could limit his role in the security branch to the light officer until said player proves he's ready to play with the big boys again.

Re: Fuck lawyers, lets' change them.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 1:05 am
by MMMiracles
Only if they get a segway.

Re: Fuck lawyers, lets' change them.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 1:10 am
by Saegrimr
I spouted off the idea somewhere else to replace the lawyer slot with a single bloodhound.
Showed the full ID of any bloody thing they clicked on, no way of communicating, detective's best friend. Leading him around on chases.

Re: Fuck lawyers, lets' change them.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:17 am
by Lo6a4evskiy
There is absolutely no need to remove lawyer. You don't have to make an impact for the job to be fun.

There's also little reason to have "light security officers". Security with less responsibilities? What? We don't need an entry point for jackasses who want less responsibility, which means free baton and then they will not do anything because "i have less reespansibilites u cant tell me wat to do".

If you want more security, increase officer slots. If you want new jobs, create new slots. There's no reason for lawyers not to exist.

If anything, they have the best starting suits in the game.

Re: Fuck lawyers, lets' change them.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:45 am
by paprika
Saegrimr wrote:I spouted off the idea somewhere else to replace the lawyer slot with a single bloodhound.
Showed the full ID of any bloody thing they clicked on, no way of communicating, detective's best friend. Leading him around on chases.

Oh god, do this but add the aliens' new 'pounce' ability to it so it can pounce on criminals, holy shit that would be fucking great

Saegrimr if you don't var edit an alien hunter to be a security dog within a week I'm going to be so disappointed in you

Re: Fuck lawyers, lets' change them.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:42 am
by Phalanx300
Saegrimr wrote:I spouted off the idea somewhere else to replace the lawyer slot with a single bloodhound.
Showed the full ID of any bloody thing they clicked on, no way of communicating, detective's best friend. Leading him around on chases.


Do this please, would make for a interesting new job. Definately has more use to the station then a useless lawyer.

Re: Fuck lawyers, lets' change them.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 1:04 pm
by Incomptinence
If we had an economy we could have civil law cases where anyone can sue anyone else.

Re: Fuck lawyers, lets' change them.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:47 pm
by Malkevin
Incomptinence wrote:If we had an economy we could have civil law cases where anyone can sue anyone else.

Apparently lawyers were added to be ambulance chasers and do the civil dispute stuff.

Lawyers are pointless, legalised grey tide vigilantes would also be pointless - and I have no doubt that there will be pissing matches between them and security.

Re: Fuck lawyers, lets' change them.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:53 pm
by cedarbridge
Jacough wrote:As far as armaments go they'd be limited to a disabler, pepper spray, a security flashlight, and cuffs.

Limited how? You realize this server doesn't lock you to your starting gear right? Any of these "light" officers would be given proper gear at roundstart anyway.

Why, as a warden, would I want a second-class sec officer?

Jacough wrote:The idea I had in mind was that it'd be sort of like the "assistant" of the security branch.

We have those, they're called "assistants" and they're shit enough without a free gun and pepperspray.

We don't need any of this because lawyers already fill their intended role. As warden, I already handle questions from lawyers "why is he here?" "What's his sentence for?" "Isn't that too much?" etc etc etc for vague examples. Lawyers are primarily a sec/rp job. They're like less-shit librarians with some minor sec access and snappy suits. They're players I can take into interrogations without feeling (IC) like I'm cluttering the room. Lawyers are fine and we don't need to replace them with "light" legalized validhunters.

Re: Fuck lawyers, lets' change them.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:00 pm
by omnitricks
Hell no. I like playing lawyers as they are. Sure I rarely get a trial since the station is always fubar and no one has the luxury of time unless the shift is quiet but those are real fun times. Also it depends on how shit shitcurity is. Sometimes they let you represent clients. Sometimes they ask advice for brig times. Sometimes you even get to get tators a free pass if sec is not powergaming fags and want to play along.

Might as well you get rid of librarians instead if you are talking about getting rid of lawyers. Same thing with assistants. And detectives. And bartenders. And chefs. And botanists.

Re: Fuck lawyers, lets' change them.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 2:56 am
by oranges
add a second detective

Re: Fuck lawyers, lets' change them.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:11 am
by Malkevin
Yes

Re: Fuck lawyers, lets' change them.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 6:58 pm
by flazeo25
well changing them to forensics agents and put them under the detective with a small lab.

Re: Fuck lawyers, lets' change them.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:04 am
by RG4
Even better is when the lawyer is a head-rev, nobody expects that.

Re: Fuck lawyers, lets' change them.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:21 am
by Timbrewolf
Remove lawyer, replace with journalist.

He uses his evidence scanner and a camera to document abuses and goings on around the station. He's the only person with authority to create a newsfeed nobody can sensor. He can work with the librarian to flood the station with propaganda and news, or just take pictures of people ERP'ing and distribute the erotica.

Maybe sec will listen to him more when he has the ability to report on them being shit to the whole crew and they can't stop him.

[Deleted]

PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:50 am
by Violaceus
PostThis post was deleted by MrStonedOne on Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:46 pm.
Reason: Requested

Re: Fuck lawyers, lets' change them.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 3:34 am
by cedarbridge
flazeo25 wrote:well changing them to forensics agents and put them under the detective with a small lab.

I actually do wish we had a more robust forensics system. Prints and blood are ok, but I'd like fun things like autopsies and the like. We could even add poisons (NT had a few cool ones) that would make the currently underused blood scanners in R&D useful.

Re: Fuck lawyers, lets' change them.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 4:45 am
by Cipher3
cedarbridge wrote:
flazeo25 wrote:well changing them to forensics agents and put them under the detective with a small lab.

I actually do wish we had a more robust forensics system. Prints and blood are ok, but I'd like fun things like autopsies and the like. We could even add poisons (NT had a few cool ones) that would make the currently underused blood scanners in R&D useful.

That would be a nice addition to a legitimate medical system as opposed to APPLY BRUISE PACK

Re: Fuck lawyers, lets' change them.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:31 am
by Timbrewolf
>taking something that is already underused and making it take more time and people to complete

I'm reminded why people hardly ever listen to this subforum.

Hey guys I've got this equally great idea, let's add two more clerks to the HoP line so when you want to get your ID changed you have to first give it to them so they can put it through a paperwork processor a few times.

If you specifically want to "fix" or buff forensics, make the evidence scanner able to see more things and stop. You're done.

Forensics is a joke because most crimes are quickly "solved" when someone screams help over the radio and the AI immediately teleports to them and identifies "Yep, Greytide Bill is murdering the shit out of Anne Jeannaire in the dorms". Its primary use is in practice is figuring out what color gloves the guy had on when he broke into EVA. Sometimes you even get to use it on cult runes, if one of the 90+ people running around on the station hasn't already visually identified "Hey this asshole is drawing blood runes over here".

Re: Fuck lawyers, lets' change them.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:58 am
by cedarbridge
An0n3 wrote:>taking something that is already underused and making it take more time and people to complete

I'm reminded why people hardly ever listen to this subforum.

Hey guys I've got this equally great idea, let's add two more clerks to the HoP line so when you want to get your ID changed you have to first give it to them so they can put it through a paperwork processor a few times.

If you specifically want to "fix" or buff forensics, make the evidence scanner able to see more things and stop. You're done.

Forensics is a joke because most crimes are quickly "solved" when someone screams help over the radio and the AI immediately teleports to them and identifies "Yep, Greytide Bill is murdering the shit out of Anne Jeannaire in the dorms". Its primary use is in practice is figuring out what color gloves the guy had on when he broke into EVA. Sometimes you even get to use it on cult runes, if one of the 90+ people running around on the station hasn't already visually identified "Hey this asshole is drawing blood runes over here".


I don't really get what you're talking about "underused." Are you implying that detectives don't actively scan things for prints or scan cult runes to match bloodtypes? I'm also not seeing a problem with being able to examine a body for cause of death or examine the wounds. I mean, it is fairly useful (and shouldn't be a big damn mystery) to determine the difference between a bullet wound, a laser burn and a guy carved up with a chef's knife. That said, I'm not really satisfied with the "just click them with your scanner." Simple is not always rewarding. It should take some time or at least some knowledge to be able to do things. It need not be cumbersome, but it need not be free either.

Re: Fuck lawyers, lets' change them.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:13 pm
by Steelpoint
Detective's are still very useful but are somewhat niche in the age of the overt traitor.

Re: Fuck lawyers, lets' change them.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:06 pm
by Cheridan
Lo6a4evskiy wrote:There is absolutely no need to remove lawyer. You don't have to make an impact for the job to be fun.


That's the biggest flaw with the job, though. There's this cognitive dissonance with the job where the it doesn't have a point, but people want it to have a point. With librarian, people go "Ok, well it's just a librarian." There's an acceptance there that, sure, a librarian isn't going to typically have much impact.
That isn't the case with lawyer -- there's a group that wants them to stay a RP-only sub-assistant job, a group that wants to make them into +1 Security Officer, a group that wants to turn them into some weird mini-admin. Nobody knows what direction to take the job in because it was added without any design goal in mind.

oranges wrote:add a second detective


Screw that. Take it a step further and merge lawyer, librarian, and chaplain into Paranormal Investigator. Gets everything those jobs currently get, as well as a forensic scanner.

Lawyer and Librarian/reporter aren't jobs that you need an ID card for. You can represent someone in a court case or start a newscaster feed without having a set job for it.

Re: Fuck lawyers, lets' change them.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:49 pm
by Malkevin
Court cases would be a lot more palatable if they were tribunals where the defence and prosecution were just two random dudes who already had a job elsewhere.
That way they would be done by people who have a vested interest in not overly drawing out the court case as they have a proper job to get back to, instead of jobsworths who have a vested interest in the opposite and intentionally draw out the court case in order to validify their existence

Re: Fuck lawyers, lets' change them.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:00 pm
by Cipher3
Malkevin wrote:Court cases would be a lot more palatable if they were tribunals where the defence and prosecution were just two random dudes who already had a job elsewhere.
That way they would be done by people who have a vested interest in not overly drawing out the court case as they have a proper job to get back to, instead of jobsworths who have a vested interest in the opposite and intentionally draw out the court case in order to validify their existence

It's not that the lawyers are trying to draw out court, it's that trying to organize a spectator sport actual kangaroo court from a /tg/station playerbase is a joke. Court is a joke on this server, with this design, especially since usually at least one person starts attacking people. I've been in enough SS13 court cases to know, inevitably someone is going to start bringing the fight from verbal to physical, be it via hulks or eswords or ferrying away the defendant.

Re: Fuck lawyers, lets' change them.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:11 pm
by Timbrewolf
cedarbridge wrote:-snip-



Expanding forensics is useless feature creep. With the pace of our rounds and the sheer size of the population there's little mystery to be solved.

You can already lift the Chef's prints off a bloody knife and match the blood on the knife to a corpse. But in the time it takes you to do that, odds are some other assistant while have climbed into the kitchen and rum amok and gotten hacked to pieces by him, or he'll have been spotted absorbing people in a closet somewhere or whatever.

Detective has long-since been the cult's no. 1 enemy (even more-so back when he had those thermals) and the forensic scanner enables him to do that, but adding more to it accomplishes nothing. If our pop was a lot lower and things moved more slowly there would be room for him to intelligently solve crimes, but as is the detective is often being called on to be the HoS'es right-hand-man and not a super-sleuth.

Re: Fuck lawyers, lets' change them.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:33 pm
by Lo6a4evskiy
Cheridan wrote:There's this cognitive dissonance with the job where the it doesn't have a point, but people want it to have a point.

Somehow assistant manages to live through that.

Re: Fuck lawyers, lets' change them.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 12:12 pm
by Cheridan
Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
Cheridan wrote:There's this cognitive dissonance with the job where the it doesn't have a point, but people want it to have a point.

Somehow assistant manages to live through that.


...That's not the case at all. Assistant is one of the most hotly-disputed jobs, because of its advantages vs. its lack of responsibilities. There have been numerous attempts, especially lately, to try and give assistants more of a reason to actually assist by means of subjobs (Medical Assistant, Engineering Assistant, etc). So there's clearly some friction there; some people aren't content with assistant like it is while others are fine with having aimless space hobos wander the halls.

[Deleted]

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 2:10 pm
by Violaceus
PostThis post was deleted by MrStonedOne on Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:46 pm.
Reason: Requested