Make food more important.

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youngbuckliontiger
 
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Make food more important.

Postby youngbuckliontiger » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:33 pm #41508

You should be able to starve to death if you don't eat. Make it so people get hungry quicker.
This makes chef's more important.
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Re: Make food more important.

Postby Cheridan » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:51 pm #41525

I don't really see what we'd gain from this. I enjoy the hunger system as a simulation aspect of a simulation-heavy game, but increasing the rate that people get hungry and punishing them with death if they don't eat, I think that detracts from the rest of the game in an annoying fashion -- similarly to how botanists have to keep in their plantfort and can't really participate in anything else, or their plants die and all the trays get filled with weeds.

Now, if your title was the only content in the thread, I would agree with you. Food should be more important. But I don't think "Oops can't fight the nuke ops gotta grab a salad" is the right way to go about it.
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Re: Make food more important.

Postby youngbuckliontiger » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:58 pm #41528

I mean if you just take away the speed reduction when you are hungry. Eating a certain food can have different buffs. Like eating more meat makes your punch do more damage. Something like that.
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Re: Make food more important.

Postby paprika » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:35 pm #41539

3 hours of not eating food won't make you die
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Re: Make food more important.

Postby cedarbridge » Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:32 pm #41549

Violaceus wrote:lol there is already identical thread

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Re: Make food more important.

Postby Alex Crimson » Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:52 pm #41596

paprika wrote:3 hours of not eating food won't make you die


Hell if we are going for realism, why does it take so many hits to the head with a toolbox to kill someone? One would be enough. The game doesnt need complete realism. Rounds on /tg/ are pretty short. The game doesnt seem very optimized for such short rounds. Making people get hungry a little faster isnt a bad idea.

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Re: Make food more important.

Postby MisterPerson » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:01 pm #41600

While similar, I'm inclined to believe the topic of the other thread is about making vending machines and their food worse while this one is about making other food better. If there winds up being a lot of overlap, I'll merge the two threads, but until then, let's try flesh this out a bit.

youngbuckliontiger wrote:I mean if you just take away the speed reduction when you are hungry. Eating a certain food can have different buffs. Like eating more meat makes your punch do more damage. Something like that.


It would be much more helpful to not just say "something like that".
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Re: Make food more important.

Postby omnitricks » Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:21 am #41698

I agree with the suggestion to let food have buffs. I mean even syndiecakes can heal over time right? (to show how effective it is, I'll point out I brought back someone from crit before by forcefeeding him the cakes)

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Re: Make food more important.

Postby kosmos » Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:23 am #41714

More difficult and complicated recipes could heal more and longer, make you move faster...
Maybe even some super-difficult ones (with high tier ores and chemicals) could temporarily give you superpowers or something similar, like immunity to diseases, no need to breathe, cold-resistance, etc.

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Re: Make food more important.

Postby paprika » Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:24 am #41722

Making everyone's round shit just because they haven't eaten won't make the chef more relevant I know this from experience. It'll just make them take a bunch of raisins in their backpack, or somehow find the most robust way to keep fed all round.
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Re: Make food more important.

Postby kosmos » Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:22 am #41745

Violaceus wrote:Buffing food with healing and super effects is stupid.

Do you get special advantage while you breathe? No? That's because breathing is vital and obligatory. Same should be with food.

And this is just repeating previous thread.

This only repeats if you repeat. This is purely about buffing food, which I think would be a good motivator for the Chef to make difficult recipes.

Right now, why should the Chef make anything else but burgers? Only non-rp-reason to make difficult recipes is that you can get warm/cold/hallucinating/die from few of them.

And about breathing, I agree if you breathe normal air, nothing should be different, but what if you breathe a super-special-mix-recipe of air someone made with loads of effort?

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Re: Make food more important.

Postby Scott » Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:52 am #41753

There is no such thing. The air either has enough oxygen or too much oxygen. Or plasma.

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Re: Make food more important.

Postby kosmos » Sat Nov 08, 2014 8:14 am #41932

Scott wrote:There is no such thing. The air either has enough oxygen or too much oxygen. Or plasma.

It was a hypothetical situation, thus "what if". I'll try to be more clear:
Burgers, very quick and easy to make --> satiates hunger, no buff, nothing else.
Some high tier recipe made out of diamonds, doctor's delight & whatnot, difficult to make --> satiates hunger, has a buff to heal you slowly for a very long time.

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Re: Make food more important.

Postby callanrockslol » Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:15 am #41955

Alex Crimson wrote:
paprika wrote:3 hours of not eating food won't make you die


Hell if we are going for realism, why does it take so many hits to the head with a toolbox to kill someone? One would be enough. The game doesnt need complete realism. Rounds on /tg/ are pretty short. The game doesnt seem very optimized for such short rounds. Making people get hungry a little faster isnt a bad idea.


Well to be fair one hit is often enough to drop someone, the rest are just to keep them down.
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Re: Make food more important.

Postby cedarbridge » Sat Nov 08, 2014 11:05 pm #42056

Violaceus wrote:
kosmos wrote:
Scott wrote:There is no such thing. The air either has enough oxygen or too much oxygen. Or plasma.

It was a hypothetical situation, thus "what if". I'll try to be more clear:
Burgers, very quick and easy to make --> satiates hunger, no buff, nothing else.
Some high tier recipe made out of diamonds, doctor's delight & whatnot, difficult to make --> satiates hunger, has a buff to heal you slowly for a very long time.

>eating diamonds

You don't need to make them senselessly over-complicated. We already have a fairly extensive menu with varying degrees of complexity and they're produced from things that aren't good. Enchiladas, Spesslaw, Stew, etc all require a lot of varied ingredients and levels of prep but they're almost never worth it outside of showing off or super corner-case stuff like griffing atmos techs with 100 potency enchiladas.

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Re: Make food more important.

Postby Saegrimr » Sat Nov 08, 2014 11:42 pm #42070

Violaceus wrote:>eating diamonds

>drinking gold

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Re: Make food more important.

Postby cedarbridge » Sun Nov 09, 2014 12:40 am #42080

Saegrimr wrote:
Violaceus wrote:>eating diamonds

>drinking gold

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Re: Make food more important.

Postby Jalleo » Sun Nov 09, 2014 12:43 am #42081

Just dropping this here so everyone is aware there I made this issue report recently for chemistry and food is a part of chemistry mechanics wise. Apart from some edge case scenarios.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/issues/5547

Most foods that heal have chemicals in them. So to make food better it may require a rework of the whole of chemistry and if so that suggests a partial rework of medical.

Now onto another bit:
With this case it is complex there have been discussions about it recently. Even before these threads by a couple of days. This thread I like how the talk is about creating a focus on how to differentiate between quick food and complex food. But there are more than one reason:
1. would you as a chef be willing to use up more items to only make 1 item?
2. How are the botanists this shift are they helpful or bad? If their bad you will be crutched on public garden and cargo.
3. Do you know about the upgrades you can get for the microwave? Will science help you?

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Re: Make food more important.

Postby cedarbridge » Sun Nov 09, 2014 2:35 am #42100

Jalleo wrote:Just dropping this here so everyone is aware there I made this issue report recently for chemistry and food is a part of chemistry mechanics wise. Apart from some edge case scenarios.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/issues/5547

Most foods that heal have chemicals in them. So to make food better it may require a rework of the whole of chemistry and if so that suggests a partial rework of medical.

Now onto another bit:
With this case it is complex there have been discussions about it recently. Even before these threads by a couple of days. This thread I like how the talk is about creating a focus on how to differentiate between quick food and complex food. But there are more than one reason:
1. would you as a chef be willing to use up more items to only make 1 item?
2. How are the botanists this shift are they helpful or bad? If their bad you will be crutched on public garden and cargo.
3. Do you know about the upgrades you can get for the microwave? Will science help you?


As for the last bit first:

1) I did this anyway. Enchilladas and the like are fairly complex as far as kitchen food goes.
2) Botanists tend to cooperate a lot if the chef communicates their needs appropriately. That means using the request console in the kitchen to send a little needs list to the botanists so they know what you want or need stocked. I've also gone so far as to summon and engieborg to put a door between the kitchen and botany to help out if my wants and needs are a bit more ample than usual.
3) Most chefs don't even know they exist and one even flipped out when I asked to be let in to upgrade it. He then wanted my babies after I showed him how to create an infinite number of donk pockets.

Rewritting the whole of chemistry is ambitious, but if you're going to do so you have to make sure that you don't remove its prime functionality and don't try to over "balance" the fun out of what is functionally a kinda tedious job already. Frankly, a lot of chemistry could simply be improved by adding more reagents with appropriate (non-conflicting) recipies or adding background chems to the food items etc that you want to manipulate and then simply not making them chem-craftable. I've also heard from coders that they're generally against adding new chem recipes to the game for whatever reason.

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Re: Make food more important.

Postby Jalleo » Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:30 am #42140

It will most likely be done by someone else with a chemistry system rework. And yes coders are against adding new chems at the moment because the system is well bad.

Edit: anyhow this change to food seems like the best thing to occur at the moment. https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/5584

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Re: Make food more important.

Postby Alex Crimson » Sun Nov 09, 2014 2:20 pm #42167

Jalleo wrote:It will most likely be done by someone else with a chemistry system rework. And yes coders are against adding new chems at the moment because the system is well bad.

Edit: anyhow this change to food seems like the best thing to occur at the moment. https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/5584


How would that help exactly? That just changes the way you make food, it doesnt address the issue of a chefs job being rather pointless. Its an ok change, but you will still just be making random food that people will not eat.

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Re: Make food more important.

Postby Steelpoint » Sun Nov 09, 2014 2:25 pm #42168

Alex Crimson wrote:How would that help exactly? That just changes the way you make food, it doesnt address the issue of a chefs job being rather pointless. Its an ok change, but you will still just be making random food that people will not eat.


I thought the general consensus was that the Bartender, the Chef, the Botanists, the Chaplain and the Librarian were role playing jobs who contributed very little of tangible benefit to the station?

As I've said, I disagree with placing such a heavy emphasis on the Chef and his tools in order to feed the station, a more soft approach would be making junk food provide overall less nutrient than cooked food does to encourage people to ask the chef/bartender to serve up a order instead of forcing people to break into the Kitchen for food at the 45 minute mark.
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Re: Make food more important.

Postby Alex Crimson » Sun Nov 09, 2014 2:35 pm #42170

I wouldnt call the Chef/Botanist "roleplay" jobs. They can contribute to the round by making food and interesting plants. Its just that in their current state the stuff they produce is so useless that they might as well be roleplay jobs. They are not roleplay jobs by choice, but rather because other things on the station(vending machines/chemistry) perform the role better.

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Re: Make food more important.

Postby fleure » Sun Nov 09, 2014 2:51 pm #42172

We have this same thread every few months and we have the exact same arguments and nothing ever changes.

Are there any other servers that have done something interesting with food?

Personally I think vending machines should just have much more limited stock or limited placement across the station.

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Re: Make food more important.

Postby cedarbridge » Sun Nov 09, 2014 3:18 pm #42173

fleure wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:Not gonna lie. You alcoholics drink some weird shit for a buzz.


Alcoholics don't drink that, they get the cheapest booze they can find.

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Re: Make food more important.

Postby fleure » Sun Nov 09, 2014 3:31 pm #42177

cedarbridge wrote:You're all the same to me :^)


I hope you're joking nigga, trivialising alcoholism as "someone as drinks" puts you on the same level as Tumblr fairies who think they have PTSD.
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Re: Make food more important.

Postby Screemonster » Sun Nov 09, 2014 4:03 pm #42184

Put a chemical in all the "junk" food that increases hunger rate for a while. Fills you up fast, but the benefit wears off faster.

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Re: Make food more important.

Postby Intigracy » Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:19 pm #42541

     .
Last edited by Intigracy on Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Make food more important.

Postby flazeo25 » Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:18 pm #42725

could we have food tied to running, so running speed now would be nerfed a little but would become walking, and new running would be much faster but works on stamina which food replenish, so if your complety hungery you can only walk slowly at current walk speed, so junk food from vendors would fill hunger but disapper quickly while chef food may make you run longer or give other neat effects if their high class food.

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Re: Make food more important.

Postby cedarbridge » Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:31 pm #42728

flazeo25 wrote:could we have food tied to running, so running speed now would be nerfed a little but would become walking, and new running would be much faster but works on stamina which food replenish, so if your complety hungery you can only walk slowly at current walk speed, so junk food from vendors would fill hunger but disapper quickly while chef food may make you run longer or give other neat effects if their high class food.

We don't need a stamina system.

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Re: Make food more important.

Postby Alex Crimson » Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:38 pm #42731

But... the realisms!

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Re: Make food more important.

Postby Konork » Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:39 pm #42766

People don't want to move slow, even though it's one of those things that may be better for the game in the long run.

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Re: Make food more important.

Postby soulgamer » Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:53 am #42858

Food buff
-Six levels of hunger: Starving, Hungry, Satisfied, Stuffed, and Fat
-Starving leaves you slowed (no change there) and causes all healing effects to be 30% less effective. More likely to catch diseases and are harder to cure.
-Hungry leaves you slightly slowed and causes all healing effects to be 10% less effective. Slightly more likely to catch diseases and they are slightly harder to cure.
-Satisfied. No change at all!
-Stuffed. Healing effects effect you 10% more. Slight resistance to catching diseases. Only eating prepared food (aka chef food) grants this state.
-Fat has all the standard negatives and positives. You can be stuffed and fat at the same time.

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Re: Make food more important.

Postby Rolan7 » Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:52 pm #42924

Konork wrote:People don't want to move slow, even though it's one of those things that may be better for the game in the long run.

Yeah, people need to move full speed forever for no effort. Anything else is "OH NO REALISMS".
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Re: Make food more important.

Postby cedarbridge » Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:48 pm #42954

Rolan7 wrote:
Konork wrote:People don't want to move slow, even though it's one of those things that may be better for the game in the long run.

Yeah, people need to move full speed forever for no effort. Anything else is "OH NO REALISMS".

Actually, its more of "another thing to keep track of"

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Re: Make food more important.

Postby Somejerk » Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:25 am #44143

All this food we consume and we don't even need to use the toilets. We should have to poop once in a while. If you don't go to the toilet your jumpsuit gets shit all over it and you have to use a washer or get a new suit.

Edit: Oh yes, and if you don't clean it people around you start to vomit and receive a small amount of toxin damage over time

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Re: Make food more important.

Postby youngbuckliontiger » Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:19 am #44212

Somejerk wrote:All this food we consume and we don't even need to use the toilets. We should have to poop once in a while. If you don't go to the toilet your jumpsuit gets shit all over it and you have to use a washer or get a new suit.

Edit: Oh yes, and if you don't clean it people around you start to vomit and receive a small amount of toxin damage over time

This actually could work...
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Re: Make food more important.

Postby Erbbu » Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:23 am #44213

Violaceus wrote:I knew someone will try to disregard this thread by making such sugesstion.

Well I mean referring to realism in a game that is not a simulator does seem silly.

I don't think having food give you special effects in a game is out of the question. Hell, many of them already do that, it's just that they're weak effects.

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Re: Make food more important.

Postby fleure » Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:36 am #44214

youngbuckliontiger wrote:
Somejerk wrote:All this food we consume and we don't even need to use the toilets. We should have to poop once in a while. If you don't go to the toilet your jumpsuit gets shit all over it and you have to use a washer or get a new suit.

Edit: Oh yes, and if you don't clean it people around you start to vomit and receive a small amount of toxin damage over time

This actually could work...


goon has gone down that route, I think. From what I heard it's not worth revisiting.
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Re: Make food more important.

Postby Cheridan » Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:20 pm #44257

flazeo25 wrote:could we have food tied to running, so running speed now would be nerfed a little but would become walking, and new running would be much faster but works on stamina which food replenish, so if your complety hungery you can only walk slowly at current walk speed, so junk food from vendors would fill hunger but disapper quickly while chef food may make you run longer or give other neat effects if their high class food.


We basically have this already. Running around makes you hungrier than just chilling in one spot.
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Re: Make food more important.

Postby dezzmont » Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:41 pm #44260

Food makes a lot of sense as a limit to how long you can be in private, secure areas with no interaction with other people. To make it work in this capacity would just require that all vending machines enter a public space, and perhaps installing an upper limit on fed status if you eat out of one.

Hunger was originally a much larger part of the game, but it was removed because it forced people to stop 'doing their jobs' to leave their work area every so often at a rate that caused food production jobs to be important, which was the freaking point. People claimed it was unfun and not important because it was a simulationist aspect, but it played a major part in circulating players around and 3 entire jobs were dedicated around the system, the bartender, chef, and botanist, with the quartermaster and cargo techs playing a minor role. There is a somewhat complicated production chain for filling high end foods that doesn't do what it is supposed to when food is insignificant. You don't get famine events either which were always a blast.

Not everything in a game is designed to maximize an individual's ability to have complete freedom to do what they thing is fun uninterrupted and without distraction.

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Re: Make food more important.

Postby Timbrewolf » Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:36 pm #44266

This is another terrible suggestion that doesn't actually benefit the game or any job in it.

It's very swingy, you're creating something that will seemingly have no effect at all as people continue to eat out of vending machines, until it reaches a breaking point and suddenly the whole game hinges around the ability of the chef to play diner dash.

1) When last I was paying attention to the hunger system, how much you were sprinting around affected how quickly you became hungry, so there already is/was a system like stamina that's discrete and accomplishes exactly what it should.

2) Eating and drinking is like 90% roleplay that is, for some reason, enforced in the games mechanics. It would be more consistent to remove the mechanic entirely and let people eat when they want to then try to turn the station into a bunch of diabetic hummingbirds that constantly need to be consuming something to stay alive.

3) We've tried rounds where we've removed all other food sources (or had the chef steal them) and even with the hunger system we have in place it caused riots in the food line. It gums up a pretty crucial part of the station (the escape hallway) which is conveniently very close to one department that makes instakill gas grenades and another department that makes high explosives. While I think dezzmont made a good point that food is a motivator for people to come out and expose themselves to the general population, and that's a benefit to the gameplay, having people clumping up anywhere on the station like that is not.

It's fine for what it is. If you want to encourage people to eat more food or make the chef more important, don't force players to have to eat more but give the chef's recipes more chemistry-like effects and buffs that give people an incentive to want to eat them. It's a stretch, but look at how MMO's do it. Your character wont starve to death if they don't eat, but if you DO eat you'll get more maximum HP, heals over time, increased experience, or whatever. Having food that gave you things like damage resistance, run speed, long term healing, shorter stun time, whatever would raise demand for the chef's foods without crippling the rest of the station.

I still think it's overall not a very good idea to try to mess with it. It's often difficult enough to sneak away from either the Bartender or Chef roles to go do traitor stuff, as someone will frequently wander by and shout over the radio for a drink or something to eat. As each one is the only one of their job on the station, they're already very visible jobs.
Last edited by Timbrewolf on Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Make food more important.

Postby fleure » Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:38 pm #44267

dezzmont wrote:Food makes a lot of sense as a limit to how long you can be in private, secure areas with no interaction with other people. To make it work in this capacity would just require that all vending machines enter a public space, and perhaps installing an upper limit on fed status if you eat out of one.

Hunger was originally a much larger part of the game, but it was removed because it forced people to stop 'doing their jobs' to leave their work area every so often at a rate that caused food production jobs to be important, which was the freaking point. People claimed it was unfun and not important because it was a simulationist aspect, but it played a major part in circulating players around and 3 entire jobs were dedicated around the system, the bartender, chef, and botanist, with the quartermaster and cargo techs playing a minor role. There is a somewhat complicated production chain for filling high end foods that doesn't do what it is supposed to when food is insignificant. You don't get famine events either which were always a blast.

Not everything in a game is designed to maximize an individual's ability to have complete freedom to do what they thing is fun uninterrupted and without distraction.


I like this, and the older dynamic of food, but it would be easily countered by just filling a box with raisins (or, even, chef's food) and keeping that with you at all times.
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Re: Make food more important.

Postby Timbrewolf » Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:42 pm #44268

High-end food is currently totally worthless if you just want to powergame trying to feed the crew. Make a ton of spaghetti and meatbread then go fuck off for the rest of the round.

But if you just want to do that why the hell are you playing a service job?
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Re: Make food more important.

Postby dezzmont » Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:13 pm #44271

I think point number 4 is a feature, not a flaw, especially considering there are 4 points currently nutrition can enter the station, chemistry, cloning, botany, and cargo, with a possible 5th in xenobio if I recall. It is probably the most redundant system in the station.

Food riots shut down the station about as much as engineering all going MIA or atmos all going MIA locks down the station. Slightly less probably considering that it doesn't in of itself force the round to end if a few guys go MIA and no one notices, as you can always just get cargo on it ASAP. It takes something special to go down to cause food riots. This suggestion used to be how food worked and it really didn't end up affecting things too terribly when individuals were not present.

It also really wouldn't be more consistent with the game's mechanics to remove hunger. Hunger was originally in the game primarily to force you to get food or starve, it was not a roleplay mechanic at first.

The only way I can see a buff based chef and bartender working is if they provided short term, around five minutes, buffs that were very noticeable when gone. Even if food isn't made a big mechanic it would be nice for the people refining food to have some mechanical backing. Nothing as big as oldschool doc's delight, but something.

As for why people play service jobs, I suspect it is for a similar rote based enjoyment that people get out of chemistry coupled with some roleplaying. But removing mechanical consideration from food doesn't improve roleplay, and adding some doesn't reduce it.

Now as for raisins and food hoarding, that would easily be fixed by preventing large foods from fitting in storage containers, which they probably should already considering most food is larger than the box is.

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