Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

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Alex Crimson
 
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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby Alex Crimson » Sun May 04, 2014 8:54 pm #3681

TheTerbs wrote:
Alex Crimson wrote:Then how about we go with just removing his ability to grant head-level and security access? Something i think shouldve been done a long time ago.


why does hop exist at all then


Well with the recent update, it would make him even more useless. But i do not like that update. Heads should not be hiring their own staff. At most they should only be able to strip IDs of access. Ideally i would want the HoP to not be able to hand out head and sec IDs, only other access levels. Head IDs would be handled by the Captain personally. Sec access would be handled by the HoS.

It seems like a good change to me. The current playstyle of virtually every HoP is to give themselves Captain-level access, which they should not have. Give random people all-access, which they should not do. Recruit people into the Sec force without consulting the HoS, which is silly considering the HoP is supposed to have no control over the Sec department.

Have you guys tried to stop random players who have been given all-access? It isnt easy. Even if you catch them fast, its still a distraction. Just having a log on a computer isnt going to help anyone. If someone is running around with all-access, its most of the time going to be the HoPs fault for screwing around and giving them it in the first place.



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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby Kelenius » Sun May 04, 2014 9:32 pm #3684

Summary of this tread:

I lost plz nerf

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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sun May 04, 2014 9:59 pm #3690

Alex Crimson wrote:Recruit people into the Sec force without consulting the HoS, which is silly considering the HoP is supposed to have no control over the Sec department.

I was gonna write a detailed post about this, but then I realized how stupid this is and dumped it all.

Holy shit, officers do not choose which soldiers serve under them. Nor do heads. HoP chooses for them. Hence Head of Personnel. Job titles actually have the meaning, you know.

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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby Alex Crimson » Sun May 04, 2014 10:33 pm #3696

The HoP isnt part of the Sec force though. My understanding of the roleplay policy is that the chain of command for Security is unique. Normal Sec officers and Detectives are at the bottom of the chain. Warden is counted as a Sec officer if he is outside the brig, but inside he has more authority than normal officers. Everyone in the Sec department reports to the HoS, who reports to the Captain directly. The HoP has no say in matters of Security unless it is outside of brig.

Is that incorrect? I mean if i ever played HoS, i wouldnt want another head assigning officers to my department without my permission. Considering Sec access gives players armor and weapons.

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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby Rolan7 » Sun May 04, 2014 11:03 pm #3708

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
Alex Crimson wrote:Recruit people into the Sec force without consulting the HoS, which is silly considering the HoP is supposed to have no control over the Sec department.

I was gonna write a detailed post about this, but then I realized how stupid this is and dumped it all.

Holy shit, officers do not choose which soldiers serve under them. Nor do heads. HoP chooses for them. Hence Head of Personnel. Job titles actually have the meaning, you know.


The Head of Security isn't some sergeant, they're an officer. The station specialist and administrator in all matters of security. I'm pretty sure high level officers have authority over recruitment and dismissal in their jursidiction...

As for the non-sec departments, managers in actual workplaces handle the bulk of hiring/firing/transfers. Since you brought up reality. The Human Resources director doesn't just decide that someone in tech support can become a salesman, the manager of the sales department has to approve the transfer. The Captain (CEO/board) can do whatever, of course.
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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby TheTerbs » Sun May 04, 2014 11:37 pm #3721

Alex Crimson wrote:The HoP isnt part of the Sec force though. My understanding of the roleplay policy is that the chain of command for Security is unique. Normal Sec officers and Detectives are at the bottom of the chain. Warden is counted as a Sec officer if he is outside the brig, but inside he has more authority than normal officers. Everyone in the Sec department reports to the HoS, who reports to the Captain directly. The HoP has no say in matters of Security unless it is outside of brig.

Is that incorrect? I mean if i ever played HoS, i wouldnt want another head assigning officers to my department without my permission. Considering Sec access gives players armor and weapons.


Security is just another part of the station nothing is special about it

If anything engineering is one of the most dangerous positions to hand out because your giving away access to the fuckin black hole generator and all access to everything via gloves
you're gonna carry that weight

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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby Incomptinence » Mon May 05, 2014 5:12 am #3766

Terbs gets it. Singulo barrelling through escape or a well placed bomb (ttv not weak ass synibomb) > some mook weeping in deadchat about how the mean antag sec killed him.

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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Mon May 05, 2014 6:54 am #3784

That's a great fucking point.

In science you have deadly animals, army of slaves, subversion of AI, bombs, ultimate stealing machine, super powers, mechs.

In engineering you have control over air (sort of), communications and power supply, without which NOTHING can function.

In medbay you have brainrot, lube, mutagen and easy conversions from cryo, also free IDs in cloning and cryo and may be even from just people coming to heal.

In security you have... non-lethal weaponry?

Yeah, you guys, you can talk about how HoP is not actually head of personnel all you want.

But it's pretty obvious that he's meant to be head of personnel.

Firstly, he's the only one besides captain who has access to ID computer. If heads were supposed to assign people, they would have access to it instead.

Secondly, he has FULL access to ID computer, which indicates that he was supposed to assign ANYBODY to ANYWHERE.

Finally, it's in the fucking job name.

Now, recent updates changed that, removing one of the aspects of HoP's job and brought nothing to replace it. It's bullshit and gotta be fixed.

And you want to reduce HoP's responsibilities even more, WITHOUT ADDING ANYTHING ELSE.

That's stupid and shouldn't happen.

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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby Steelpoint » Mon May 05, 2014 7:16 am #3787

The Head of Personnel is fine as is, its just that he has little actual responsibility and very little to do during a round as a non-antag. The only thing you do as a non-antag HoP is either become a pseudo-security officer, sit at your office all day and occasionally getting killed/converted/help people. A antag HoP is easy to spot out since he will be doing something that is involving him not being in his office.

The only problem I have with the HoP is that he has very little actual responsibility yet he gains a large amount of power, the Captain has the excuse that he has subordinates to do the work. While the HoP is in charge of the civilian sector in reality that is rarely the case.

But the problem is, what else could the HoP do? Take away his ID Console and he has nothing to do at all. This is in stark contrast with all the other heads since if you take away one of their functions they still have plenty of other things they can do instead. The HoP however lives and dies by the ID Console.
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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby MrMindless » Mon May 05, 2014 9:19 am #3796

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Add logging to ID computers. Then if HoP gives away all access and nothing's done about it, it's totally captain's and HoS's fault.


This seems like it'd be a good solution, telecoms has logging for everything as well (something which security and the CE often forget) and its not exactly stopping anyone from subverting comms or using their PDA to send traitorous messages.

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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby Alex Crimson » Mon May 05, 2014 10:32 am #3801

Almost every job on the station is abusable to some degree. However doing any of the things you listed, like releasing brainrot, or destroying the station with bombs/singulo is a good way to get banned for griefing.

If a random person is given Sec access just so they can take weapons from the lockers and go antag hunting or because they feel the need to powergame, then admins rarely get involved unless someone takes notice of it.

I do see your points, there is no need to be so condescending in your posts. Calm down. Removing the main job of the HoP is stupid. But i am not saying we need to remove his ability to grant or remove access. Just Sec and Head-level access.

Adding logs to record who accesses the ID consoles would be fine, but that does not prevent anything. If anyone is going to give people access above their normal level, most of the time its going to be the HoP. Only two people have the ability to use the ID console, and one is the person with freedom to pretty much do what he wants anyways. After checking the logs it still wouldnt stop the players running around with all-access passes to the entire station.

If a currency system is added then the HoP could manage that. Also maybe he could actually fulfill his current responsibilities which require him to manage Cargo and the Kitchen/Bar/Botany.

Stop making it seem like i am trying to remove his reason for being. I never once said that he should not be able to use ID consoles. Just not be able to grant Sec and Head access.

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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Mon May 05, 2014 5:21 pm #3833

Alex Crimson wrote:Almost every job on the station is abusable to some degree. However doing any of the things you listed, like releasing brainrot, or destroying the station with bombs/singulo is a good way to get banned for griefing.

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about antag HoP here. I guess I must have posted in the wrong thread. No, wait, you have.
Alex Crimson wrote:But i am not saying we need to remove his ability to grant or remove access. Just Sec and Head-level access.

Alex Crimson wrote:I never once said that he should not be able to use ID consoles. Just not be able to grant Sec and Head access.

That doesn't in any way make my points any less legit.

Oh, wait, you completely missed them. They were that security and head access are not in any way overpowered or even that great to have.

Instead you just went all
Alex Crimson wrote:But i am not saying we need to remove his ability to grant or remove access. Just Sec and Head-level access.

Alex Crimson wrote:I never once said that he should not be able to use ID consoles. Just not be able to grant Sec and Head access.

I dunno why, because that doesn't change anything at all.

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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby AseaHeru » Mon May 05, 2014 5:29 pm #3834

Lets put it this way, it is alot easier to abuse people if you are security, simply from the ability to arrest people without as many many people going "lynch he".
Thus the reason for restricting sec access.

For head access, it dosent make sense for someone with equal rank to them to be able to remove there jobs, create duplicates, etc. As most chains of command I have seen on the wiki show the HoP at equal command levels as the rest of the heads, there that is.
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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby Rolan7 » Mon May 05, 2014 5:31 pm #3836

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Yeah, you guys, you can talk about how HoP is not actually head of personnel all you want.

But it's pretty obvious that he's meant to be head of personnel.

Firstly, he's the only one besides captain who has access to ID computer. If heads were supposed to assign people, they would have access to it instead.


Just because things are a certain way, doesn't mean they're supposed to be that way...

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Secondly, he has FULL access to ID computer, which indicates that he was supposed to assign ANYBODY to ANYWHERE.


Having access to the ID computer doesn't actually indicate authority to use it without permission. Engineers have access to the singulo, are they allowed to turn it off without asking the CE if they prefer solar power? No. The Head of Personnel is the head of civilians on the station, and handles the bureaucracy of ID changes FOR the other heads because they're busy. The HoP has no authority to give medbay access if the CMO doesn't approve.

Of course, in an emergency, people overstep their authority for the good of the station. But it might as well be an assistant breaking in and doing it, because the Head of Personnel has NO authority over the medbay. The CMO answers ONLY to the captain.

I mean, you're actually saying that the HoP has a right to strip the Captain of access, without emergency circumstances. The machine lets him, after all. By "ANYBODY" do you mean anybody, anybody but the Captain, or just non-heads?

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Finally, it's in the fucking job name.


The station crew are personnel. So you can interpret Head of Personnel as being the head in command of ever single crewmember, including the Captain, or as being in charge of maintaining personnel records and handling ID changes when necessary.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Now, recent updates changed that, removing one of the aspects of HoP's job and brought nothing to replace it. It's bullshit and gotta be fixed.

And you want to reduce HoP's responsibilities even more, WITHOUT ADDING ANYTHING ELSE.

That's stupid and shouldn't happen.


Show me a HoP that actually manages the clown, mime, chef, bartender, librarian, janitor, MINING, CARGO, and ALL ASSISTANTS and is still bored.
Plus doing ID changes for those jobs, and potentially for other departments if those heads delegate properly.
(Botanists are research, technically. If the chef needs more food then the HoP can have cargo order food crates, or have mining and cargo start a farm.)

My point being that the HoP has plenty of responsibilities which generally go unperformed, so there's nothing wrong with *reducing* one of them.

I don't think they should be antag-proof though, I don't see the need.
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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Mon May 05, 2014 5:44 pm #3840

Rolan7 wrote:Engineers have access to the singulo, are they allowed to turn it off without asking the CE if they prefer solar power?

Duh
Rolan7 wrote:No.

Why the fuck not?
Rolan7 wrote:Just because things are a certain way, doesn't mean they're supposed to be that way...

Supposed by who? The important thing is, it's been around like that for years. If you want to remove something that's been around for years, you probably should do something to fill the gap. For instance, in remove parapen thread there was a substitute - a chempen and stuff. Here you just say "remove that". Why take away part of the game? Since when it became a problem anyway?
Rolan7 wrote:Show me a HoP that actually manages the clown, mime, chef, bartender, librarian, janitor, MINING, CARGO, and ALL ASSISTANTS and is still bored.

Assistants are not under HoP, the idea is that anybody can send them to do shit or whatever. That's the idea, anyway.
I'm not sure what you mean by "manage" here, care to elaborate?
Rolan7 wrote:Plus doing ID changes for those jobs, and potentially for other departments if those heads delegate properly.

Most of the time there's a burst of assistants in the beginning of the round and then nobody really needs an ID change. Especially now that heads can manage their own access.
Rolan7 wrote:(Botanists are research, technically.

Yeah, let's come up with fairy tales on the go, why not

Instead of logical assumption that hydroponics in space, which, by the way, is filled with seeds of food crops and has a biogenerator to produce organic goods, is meant for RESEARCH (of something) instead of supplying space station with food, which is, of course, not endless by any means, even though shitty vending machines try to make us believe that.

But of course, evidence is not a reason to believe how things are meant to be, instead the opinion of Rolan7 is what matters.
Rolan7 wrote:My point being that the HoP has plenty of responsibilities which generally go unperformed, so there's nothing wrong with *reducing* one of them.

Oh, that was your point? Well there's not much of responsibilities until we make vending machines not supply infinite amounts of food.

Tell me, what would you do as HoP each round, for the sake of example, no antag really disturbs you or your underlings.

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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby Alex Crimson » Mon May 05, 2014 5:52 pm #3843

If all-access really isnt such a big deal, then why is the current meta for HoP based around him always giving himself and other people all-access? Even when he should not be doing that. The first thing a HoP will do, regardless of his antag status, is give himself all-access which includes access to the brig, a place where he has no authority in the first place.

The idea of removing his ability to grant Sec and Head-level access would stop the current meta of him playing a Sec officer, and his ability as an antag to have such an easy time finishing his objectives. Hell, maybe it would make HoP antags more creative in their sabotaging of the station rather than just looting the armory and going all murderboner.

Also if you want to talk about missing points, how about the part where you miss some of mine? Seriously there is no reason discussing this with you. As with any idea, you just seem to take the debate far too personally.

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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby Steelpoint » Mon May 05, 2014 6:00 pm #3846

The thing with this debate not going anywhere is that Lo6 keeps arguing very specific points and ignores entire statements to focus on a single word.

I would actually be interested to see personnel assignments being handed over wholly to station head's of staff and the Head of Personnel being re branded as a second in command to assist the Captain and help run the station, thus focusing more on commanding the civilian sector.
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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby Rolan7 » Mon May 05, 2014 6:38 pm #3858

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
Rolan7 wrote:(Botanists are research, technically.

Yeah, let's come up with fairy tales on the go, why not

Instead of logical assumption that hydroponics in space, which, by the way, is filled with seeds of food crops and has a biogenerator to produce organic goods, is meant for RESEARCH (of something) instead of supplying space station with food, which is, of course, not endless by any means, even though shitty vending machines try to make us believe that.

But of course, evidence is not a reason to believe how things are meant to be, instead the opinion of Rolan7 is what matters.
Rolan7 wrote:My point being that the HoP has plenty of responsibilities which generally go unperformed, so there's nothing wrong with *reducing* one of them.

Oh, that was your point? Well there's not much of responsibilities until we make vending machines not supply infinite amounts of food.

Tell me, what would you do as HoP each round, for the sake of example, no antag really disturbs you or your underlings.


Huh, my mistake on botanists and assistants. Someone earlier in the thread listed botanists as under the HoP, and I thought I was correcting them... Checking the code, they've been this way since 2011, so I'm remembering another server or just plain wrong.

Having botanists under the HoP only helps my argument that the HoP is overburdened by responsibilities, you realize? I mean, I *am* of the opinion they should be research, but that's irrelevant. I also agree with you that vending machines are an awful mechanic, and that the HoP shouldn't be antagproof. I think we disagree on how civil a discussion should be, though :P

I'm happy to let you have the last word on most of that post, but I will try to answer your last question... Mostly as HoP I'd perform the normal head responsibilities of communicating with my staff and being aware of their activities. As CE I learned that if someone doesn't respond, there's a good chance they're a traitor or a victim. So ideally I'd want to check in on or at least hear from everyone I'm responsible for periodically. That worked fine as CE, but it sounds really tough for HoP because (as I have demonstrated) their department is huge and spread out. Practically I'd have to delegate mining and cargo to the Quartermaster, who really ought to be an official head instead of de facto one.

The few times I did play HoP I was completely overwhelmed, much more so than as CE. First the initial rush of ID changes, and then by the impossible task of checking on all these separate areas, and then by crisis situations which called for ID changes. That's why nobody tries, and why we should reduce the workload a bit so they can.
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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Mon May 05, 2014 6:48 pm #3861

As CE if they don't set up the engine you do it.
As RD if they don't do R&D you do it.
As HoP you don't grow crops or mine minerals if they don't do it though.

Alex, again, you're trying to cut off the limb instead of healing the wound.

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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby MrMindless » Mon May 05, 2014 9:54 pm #3886

non antag all-access HoP's could be solved fairly easily if people started actively kicking them out of their departments if they're unwanted and security responding to it.

HoP barges into chemistry and starts hogging the resources? Warn him to get out, if it fails chloral/sleep tox and drag him out.

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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby Neerti » Tue May 06, 2014 12:22 am #3900

Then you get robusted by him/sec.
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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby flazeo25 » Tue May 06, 2014 1:34 am #3913

What about making the qm the head of all cillivan(supply, service, entertainment, janitor, lawyer, chaplain and libeiran) he gets the same id changer as rest of the heads. hop positon is removed and captain office is opened up a bit so he can do normal things hop does if a head busy so he has somthing to do after securing the disk. qm access would be to (brig entrance same as other heads, supply/maint, bridge/meeting room, service, clown/mime access, chapel, libary, janitor and lawyer office). plus he would be in a better postion to manage since he least semi reconginzed by miners and cargo techs as a boss unlike the hop so it would be easy for him to manage the others better. Plus either ian goes to him or cap and he could keep the hop egun or not since he wouldnt have threating access.

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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby Psyentific » Tue May 06, 2014 2:01 am #3924

flazeo25 wrote:What about making the qm the head of all cillivan(supply, service, entertainment, janitor, lawyer, chaplain and libeiran) he gets the same id changer as rest of the heads. hop positon is removed and captain office is opened up a bit so he can do normal things hop does if a head busy so he has somthing to do after securing the disk. qm access would be to (brig entrance same as other heads, supply/maint, bridge/meeting room, service, clown/mime access, chapel, libary, janitor and lawyer office). plus he would be in a better postion to manage since he least semi reconginzed by miners and cargo techs as a boss unlike the hop so it would be easy for him to manage the others better. Plus either ian goes to him or cap and he could keep the hop egun or not since he wouldnt have threating access.


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Don't fucking give the QM ID Console access. Just, don't.
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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Tue May 06, 2014 4:27 am #3948

MrMindless wrote:non antag all-access HoP's could be solved fairly easily if people started actively kicking them out of their departments if they're unwanted and security responding to it.

HoP barges into chemistry and starts hogging the resources? Warn him to get out, if it fails chloral/sleep tox and drag him out.

That's exactly my point.
flazeo25 wrote:What about making the qm the head of all cillivan(supply, service, entertainment, janitor, lawyer, chaplain and libeiran) he gets the same id changer as rest of the heads. hop positon is removed and captain office is opened up a bit so he can do normal things hop does if a head busy so he has somthing to do after securing the disk. qm access would be to (brig entrance same as other heads, supply/maint, bridge/meeting room, service, clown/mime access, chapel, libary, janitor and lawyer office). plus he would be in a better postion to manage since he least semi reconginzed by miners and cargo techs as a boss unlike the hop so it would be easy for him to manage the others better. Plus either ian goes to him or cap and he could keep the hop egun or not since he wouldnt have threating access.

That'd be separating departments even more. It's the reason heads having ID console access is bad in the first place.

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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby kosmos » Tue May 06, 2014 5:47 am #3957

MrMindless wrote:
Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Add logging to ID computers. Then if HoP gives away all access and nothing's done about it, it's totally captain's and HoS's fault.

This seems like it'd be a good solution, telecoms has logging for everything as well (something which security and the CE often forget) and its not exactly stopping anyone from subverting comms or using their PDA to send traitorous messages.

This sounds good, maybe the computer could send a warning signal to the Captain or somewhere whenever someone uses the ID computer to make an all-access or a nearly-all-access ID. ...although this could be easily avoided by dividing the all-access to multiple IDs, it could still work.
Alex Crimson wrote:Adding logs to record who accesses the ID consoles would be fine, but that does not prevent anything. If anyone is going to give people access above their normal level, most of the time its going to be the HoP. Only two people have the ability to use the ID console, and one is the person with freedom to pretty much do what he wants anyways. After checking the logs it still wouldnt stop the players running around with all-access passes to the entire station.

At least the all-accesses could be noticed earlier and the HoP could be addressed with proof. It could even be added to Space Law that handing out all-access IDs would be a capital crime (mutiny?) and instant demotion for the HoP, maybe even making it a bannable offense like releasing a bad virus because of the possible extremely bad outcomes.

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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby Steelpoint » Tue May 06, 2014 7:22 am #3985

I would be content with adding a new major crime that handing out liberal all access is a defined crime. Right now you have to argue with the Captain.

In fact, make it a crime for HoP's to assign station personnel to high security roles without the relevant heads approval.
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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby Psyentific » Tue May 06, 2014 8:04 am #3986

Steelpoint wrote:I would be content with adding a new major crime that handing out liberal all access is a defined crime. Right now you have to argue with the Captain.

In fact, make it a crime for HoP's to assign station personnel to high security roles without the relevant heads approval.

If a HoP hands out all access, demote him.
If a HoP leaves his ID in the console, secure the ID then demote him.
If a HoP loses his main ID, the one he put all access on, demote him for being unrobust enough to give himself AA then lose it.
If a HoP abuses his all access, or otherwise makes like an assistant, demote him then give him an extra-harsh brig timer. Try and trump up some capital charges, too.

As the Head of Personnel, you have One Fucking Job - Much like the Captain guards the disk, you make sure nobody gets all access but You and El Presidente. If Das Kapitan doesn't secure his spare ID, grab it, strip it, rename it to "HAH HAH FUCK YOU" job title Sub-Assistant with no access, then berate the captain for not grabbing the (arguably more important) spare ID to go with the nuke disk and remind him to give the pinpointer to the HoS because if he's scrub enough to not get the spare ID he's scrub enough to keep the pinpointer with the disk and not tracking implant himself, the HoS and the HoP.

If you're scrub enough to fill one of the above terms of demotion and not leave yourself two backup all-access IDs stashed around the station, you're scrub enough to rot.
I haven't logged into SS13 in at least a year.

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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Tue May 06, 2014 9:29 am #3991

kosmos wrote:This sounds good, maybe the computer could send a warning signal to the Captain or somewhere whenever someone uses the ID computer to make an all-access or a nearly-all-access ID. ...although this could be easily avoided by dividing the all-access to multiple IDs, it could still work.

First of all, too easy. And then I will just do everything but Theatre or clown access or something.

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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby AseaHeru » Tue May 06, 2014 12:58 pm #4015

You could always call handing out near-all-access ids creating a workplace hazard.
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This, this is an example of what I leave for you.
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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby Fatal » Tue May 06, 2014 2:38 pm #4028

Updating space law with some new laws regarding command and HoP would never be a bad thing

Generally as Captain, I crack down on HoPs who do the whole "give all access to self, leave ID in machine, give all access to clown" bullshit

But it happens too often, security needs to be stamping down on the people who do it (just as they should clamp down on Captains who are tools), some people don't realise JUST how powerful all access is, especially in rounds like rev and cult (yet they never hand out all access in MALF and BLOB when they fucking should)

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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby Steelpoint » Tue May 06, 2014 2:49 pm #4029

Giving a clearly defined law in Space Law that defines to what extent it is a criminal offense to hand out All Access, would better allow Security to crack down on HoP's doing this behaviour. It should be noted however that arresting a Head of Staff is something taken with great care in most circumstances thus HoP's get a lot of leeway to do what they want since Sec will oft be cautions in arresting them.
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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby Alex Crimson » Tue May 06, 2014 3:16 pm #4035

Unfortunately most players see the HoP as a Captain role without being the Captain. Its rare to see anyone arrest the guy or kick him out of a department he has no business being in, because he can give himself access to those places. That is just how the current metagame goes. If people see the HoP playing a wannabee Sec Officer, they will not try to stop him despite the fact they know he really shouldnt be doing it.

Because of how careful players tend to be when confronting the HoP, he can get away with far more things as an antag, but people rarely question his actions IC, even if they feel they are excessive OOC. Short of lasering random people for no reason for actively being caught sabotaging the station.

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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby Kelenius » Tue May 06, 2014 3:27 pm #4039

Steelpoint wrote:Giving a clearly defined law in Space Law that defines to what extent it is a criminal offense to hand out All Access, would better allow Security to crack down on HoP's doing this behaviour. It should be noted however that arresting a Head of Staff is something taken with great care in most circumstances thus HoP's get a lot of leeway to do what they want since Sec will oft be cautions in arresting them.

Space law is just a suggestion, you know. You don't have to follow it to the letter. You don't have to follow it at all.

As long you are not trying to (*cough*) perma someone for a non-capital crime, you are fine.

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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby TheTerbs » Tue May 06, 2014 3:49 pm #4048

Kelenius wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:Giving a clearly defined law in Space Law that defines to what extent it is a criminal offense to hand out All Access, would better allow Security to crack down on HoP's doing this behaviour. It should be noted however that arresting a Head of Staff is something taken with great care in most circumstances thus HoP's get a lot of leeway to do what they want since Sec will oft be cautions in arresting them.

Space law is just a suggestion, you know. You don't have to follow it to the letter. You don't have to follow it at all.

As long you are not trying to (*cough*) perma someone for a non-capital crime, you are fine.



you know one day i was havin a bad day
so i said im gonna give everyone 10 minute sentences

that was a fun day
you're gonna carry that weight

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Re: Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Tue May 06, 2014 4:10 pm #4052

People go catatonic over 2 minutes anyway. The length doesn't really matter, despite what some security players think.

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