Make Head of Personnel Antagproof

[Steelpoint]

Pessimism is a trait of the job, well maybe more so on Sybil since my brief stint on Artyom was less painful (Though some non-antag gunning down people with a mech was particularly unsettling). In Security you learn to not take chances, or you learn to not give a fuck. But, don't imagine for a moment I feel Security is universally reviled, I could easily take that opinion from the people I interact with as Sec but that's the problem, in Sec the only people you mainly interact with are people coming into conflict with Security in the first place.

But of course I have a somewhat negative view of the crew at times, case in point I'm dragging dying people away from a blob to the evacuation shuttle, somehow keeping someone alive via CPR and other acts. I get overwhelmed by zombie blobs outside the evac shuttle and the people in there are actually happy that "Sec is dead"...

------------------------

My question to you is this. Who is Sec Antag fun for? The one antag or the dead Security Officers who died to their supposed "ally"? Sec Antag was never "fun" for me and never will be.

People would never trust Security personnel as they could never know if they were about to be tossed out an airlock/eaten/worse. Now people for the most part know that Security won't kill them on the spot.

Of course to some people the word "trust" is akin to a sin in SS13.

[Kelenius]

That's how it works on the bay, by the way. Anyone could be an antag.

And security is not loyalty implanted.

EDIT: Also, Steelpoint, you really should play roles that are not security occasionally. You are getting out of touch with the station crew.

[Steelpoint]

Kelenius I thought you were the one to tout how TG and Bay should not be compared on the baymed thread?

Yes your correct, Bay does allow basically anyone to be an antag. But Baystation enforces role play for antagonists as well as non-antagonists.

EDIT: I also play MD and the Janitor a lot, I was the one to add the Janibelt and increased space cleaner to the Janitor since I had horrible inventory management and a belt seemed like a good idea. I play Security a lot yes, but its not the only role I play.

[Kelenius]

Kelenius I thought you were the one to tout how TG and Bay should not be compared on the baymed thread?

Exactly
my
point

[Steelpoint]

Your going to have to actually explain your positions on matters then, leaving vague posts and not explaining your position leads to confusion. Since I assumed you brought up Bay having no antag restrictions... well I don't know why as there was no context to it.

[TheTerbs]

Your going to have to actually explain your positions on matters then, leaving vague posts and not explaining your position leads to confusion. Since I assumed you brought up Bay having no antag restrictions... well I don't know why as there was no context to it.

It's fucking spacemen

Your trying to make it sound like its more than spacemen and it's making you look autistic

[Steelpoint]

So what if its spacemen? Or a video game or a book or a movie or a car or whatever. Its a hobby, a source of entertainment. What right do you have to belittle someone for suggestion improvements or commentary because you declare it to be spacemen?

What does spacemen even mean in this context? We know its used in connotation for SS13 but why does that mean we should not give a bother about the game? Also your definition of autistic is autistic.

[TheTerbs]

The only reason for there to be antag-less positions is so that people can use that meta knowledge to avoid getting killed

There's already a cure to this and it's called git gud and git paranoid

[tunderchief]

The only reason for there to be antag-less positions is so that people can use that meta knowledge to avoid getting killed

There's already a cure to this and it's called git gud and git paranoid

Maybe your views are misguided, and is a cause of your being permabanned.


Sec and the Captain being antagproof has drastically improved the game, and raised it above a state of uncontrolled chaos. This makes doing other jobs as a nonantag possible, as there is typically a security team that will respond to calls for aid. Otherwise, there is no legitimate point to doing any jobs on the station, as you will most certainly fall prey to any passing antagonist, as antagonists within Sec will shortly disable the effectiveness of the remaining nonantag Sec team, as has been proven time and time again.

The servers that have no antagproofed roles also have strict RP policies, which /tg/ does not. It doesn't work otherwise.

[TheTerbs]

Don't talk about things you don't understand fuccboi, you don't even know why I was banned

So you want removal of chaos? Ok let's have 7 hour rounds and just remove antags since they just ruin people's rounds

[Stickymayhem]

The only reason for there to be antag-less positions is so that people can use that meta knowledge to avoid getting killed

There's already a cure to this and it's called git gud and git paranoid

Stop calling it meta knowledge. It is well provided for IC by loyalty implants.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

There is a limit to everything Terbs, just because "paranoia" is a feature of SS13 does not mean we have to take it to its absolute extreme.

Personally I still think some people want Security antag just so they have easy access to stun weaponry and authority without actual effort to get either of those two in game.

That's a pretty fuckin stupid thought

Oh yes let's make some people unable to be a traitor so you can use meta knowledge on who to trust because you get dunked too easily

The whole point of TREASON is that nobody expects it, you horse's dick in a monkey's asshole

[420goslingboy69]

The only reason for there to be antag-less positions is so that people can use that meta knowledge to avoid getting killed

There's already a cure to this and it's called git gud and git paranoid

Maybe your views are misguided, and is a cause of your being permabanned.


Sec and the Captain being antagproof has drastically improved the game, and raised it above a state of uncontrolled chaos. This makes doing other jobs as a nonantag possible, as there is typically a security team that will respond to calls for aid. Otherwise, there is no legitimate point to doing any jobs on the station, as you will most certainly fall prey to any passing antagonist, as antagonists within Sec will shortly disable the effectiveness of the remaining nonantag Sec team, as has been proven time and time again.

The servers that have no antagproofed roles also have strict RP policies, which /tg/ does not. It doesn't work otherwise.

Sec and captain not being antagproof drastically improved the game for me. Departmental Security is the reason it doesnt work that well, because security is so undivided. With normal Sec, everyone watches each other.

[bandit]

The only reason for there to be antag-less positions is so that people can use that meta knowledge to avoid getting killed

There's already a cure to this and it's called git gud and git paranoid

Stop calling it meta knowledge. It is well provided for IC by loyalty implants.

Except it really isn't. If it was provided for IC, loyalty implants would nullify any antag status at any time. Instead it's just a thinly papered-over explanation as to why security are meta-trustable at the beginning of the round. And I don't think it's good for the game for any role to be automatically trustable. It closes off possibilities. Traitor Wardens can be fucking awesome if they run their brig right, and the new brig provides even more ways to do so. (Perma fight clubs, outright execution, etc.) Corrupt officers are both true to life and a major source of paranoia in a game about paranoia. Traitor captains can basically run whatever gimmick they want without worrying that they'll get BWOINKed - the possibilities are literally endless.

You may notice that these all take a minimum of effort. The thing is, even if secantag and such gives antags, easier access to stun weaponry, the people who would be uncreative shits have plenty of ways to do that already, and the people who want to be creative will have a much easier time doing so. (Any creative antag scenario involving hostages, you basically need to be able to stun to pull off. Which is one reason it doesn't happen often enough.)

[Kelenius]

And I don't think it's good for the game for any role to be automatically trustable. It closes off possibilities. Traitor Wardens can be fucking awesome if they run their brig right, and the new brig provides even more ways to do so. (Perma fight clubs, outright execution, etc.) Corrupt officers are both true to life and a major source of paranoia in a game about paranoia. Traitor captains can basically run whatever gimmick they want without worrying that they'll get BWOINKed - the possibilities are literally endless.

Yes - on an RP server like bay. Most people here will just see it as a perfect chance to murderbone.

[Myroc]

(Could we tone down the amount of personal insults and attacks? If people want to disagree then by all means feel free, but we can at the very least try to be civilized about it.)

The main point of the game is fucking paranoia

Space Station 13 is not just a simple mafia game where the point is to figure out who's "dat fukken traiter". It's an important aspect of it, but not it's sole defining feature; It's also a roleplaying game, a simulation game, and has tons of other characteristics beyond "mafia on a space station".

Even if it was purely a mafia game where you're supposed to be paranoid, this does not exclude the possibility of having trustworthy roles. There are plenty of examples of mafia games that have roles you can trust, or are "antagproof" as we call it. A recent example would be Mush, who has one crew member that is guaranteed to not be infected and cannot at all be converted by the game's antagonists; She is always on the crew's side, no matter what. Antagproof roles like this work out because of one reason: Trust is a two-way street, and just because you have a person that you can trust completely, doesn't neccessarily mean that that person can trust you back.

While people can trust security (at least as far as not being antags, even if they might be shitcurity), security cannot themselves trust anyone. Who's to say that that assistant being attacked by the guy with the esword isn't actually the traitor and just had his esword disarmed and taken by the guy he was trying to attack? Adding antagproof roles to a game like this doesn't automatically remove all the paranoia forever, especially since the antagproof players themselves generally find that they have to be more paranoid than anyone else.

And finally, yes, there is such a thing as too much paranoia. A very, very important aspect of the game is player interaction. Making people sufficiently paranoid is just going to make them stop interacting with other people, which is the opposite of what we want.

[TheTerbs]

And I don't think it's good for the game for any role to be automatically trustable. It closes off possibilities. Traitor Wardens can be fucking awesome if they run their brig right, and the new brig provides even more ways to do so. (Perma fight clubs, outright execution, etc.) Corrupt officers are both true to life and a major source of paranoia in a game about paranoia. Traitor captains can basically run whatever gimmick they want without worrying that they'll get BWOINKed - the possibilities are literally endless.

Yes - on an RP server like bay. Most people here will just see it as a perfect chance to murderbone.

Well that's just a retarded generalization

[Incomptinence]

Since you are more likely to not be an antag than be one I see antag proofing positions as bland statistical power gaming. Also raising your own chance of being antagonist slightly if you don't play the proofed positions.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Since you are more likely to not be an antag than be one I see antag proofing positions as bland statistical power gaming. Also raising your own chance of being antagonist slightly if you don't play the proofed positions.

Yeah it's all conspiracy of those who don't play security to have better chance of being traitors. Totally.

Guys, serious question. What the fuck is paranoia? What do you mean by that? That I'm horrified that I cannot trust 2D sprites? C'mon. It's a valid thing on bay-like roleplay server, but even then it's ROLEPLAY, it's not REAL. What the fuck is paranoia here I don't know.

You're not even using the term correctly. Paranoia is actually FALSE and BASELESS sense of distrust, it's IMPOSSIBLE for the game to be about paranoia on /tg/, since everybody knows EXACTLY how to identify threat and that it exists. And if you think that the game is about not letting anybody stand near you, you're just a powergaming shit.

[Incomptinence]

You could say that about any emotional reaction to the game really. I never once used the word conspiracy, just it is pretty obvious that some people have more to gain from antag protecting than others and there is little reason they should not be aware of this.

[Apsis]

You're not even using the term correctly. Paranoia is actually FALSE and BASELESS sense of distrust, it's IMPOSSIBLE for the game to be about paranoia on /tg/, since everybody knows EXACTLY how to identify threat and that it exists. And if you think that the game is about not letting anybody stand near you, you're just a powergaming shit.

You defeated your own point right here. Paranoia is a big part of /tg/, and it's caused by our characters knowing literally everything. Everyone mixes what their character knows and what they know. Smart players support such actions using IC too, so they don't actually metagame. Sorry you think that's powergaming (it's not) by the way.


Also, I'd support opening antag back up for everyone again.

[kosmos]

I still say the HoP should not be able to give out captain or head-level access. Maybe even Sec too. Heads should be assigned by the Captain alone. Sec would require HoS or Captain ID consoles.

This sounds good, it would partly solve the problem; instead of making HoP completely antagproof - if people see that too harsh - his power could be reduced a tiny bit, making HoP a less potent antag.

We're not destroying the game's heart of paranoia here, just balancing things out.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

HoP would become fucking useless without being able to assign heads, since now apparently every head can manage their own personnel instead of Head of PERSONNEL who's supposed to manage personnel. Captain has more shit to deal with other than managing personnel.

[AseaHeru]

Well, lets see who the HoP has for people directly under it...

Cargo.
Service.
Library and chapel.
Botany (I dont call them service).
Janitors.

[Alex Crimson]

I do not entirely agree with the new update to the server either. I think heads should be able to remove access to their departments, to deal with troublesome staff without bothering the HoP. But heads giving access is making the HoP a little too redundant. I do still believe that the power to grant head-level access should reside with the Captain, who is the only one person on the station with authority over other heads.

The captain has no job to do at all really. Other than defend the nuke disk and oversee his station.

[AseaHeru]

Yah, lets go with that. Heads can demote, but not promote, captian is the only one who can hand out bridge, head and cap levels.

[Kelenius]

Well, lets see who the HoP has for people directly under it...

Cargo.
Service.
Library and chapel.
Botany (I dont call them service).
Janitors.

Also clowns, mimes and lawyers.

[AseaHeru]

For some reason I thought clowns and mines where part of service, and lawyers where security.
Thank you for pointing them out.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Well, lets see who the HoP has for people directly under it...

Cargo.
Service.
Library and chapel.
Botany (I dont call them service).
Janitors.

Cargo doesn't need HoP unless they really want to.
Service doesn't even know they have a radio channel and they also don't need HoP
Botany is either incompetent or doing their own thing
Janitor, you guessed it, doesn't need HoP either.
I mean, what are you gonna do, tell them where to mop floors?

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Yah, lets go with that. Heads can demote, but not promote, captian is the only one who can hand out bridge, head and cap levels.

Yeah, I've actually had the same idea in mind
Aside from captain handing out bridge and stuff. Already ID with just ID computer doesn't work in ID computer access for whatever reason, I assume because of additional checks on whether or not this is a head. Those checks need to be gone and splitting up captain and HoP wouldn't help.

Incompetent captain has no job to do at all really. Other than defend the nuke disk and oversee his station.

FTFY

[Alex Crimson]

There is no other job that i can think of that the captain needs to handle directly other than the nuke disk and important situations involving heads. If i am wrong please enlighten me. I mean sure he COULD walk around and play Sec or do a random job, but that is not what he is supposed to do.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

As a head you should be making sure that your department is doing everything that is essential, not doing anything stupid and possibly doing something that is beneficial.

As captain, the entire station is your department.

It's your job to make sure that singuloh is set up.

It's your job to make sure that medbay set up cryo and isn't mass producing mutagen and lube.

It's your job to make sure that robotics makes medibots and cleanbots and whatever.

It's your job to make sure that miners will deliver materials to R&D

It's your job to make sure that R&D will upgrade everything and produce useful things

Et cetera

All this is either accomplished by giving out orders and just checking whether they're done (if you have someone competent who can do it) or by doing it yourself (THAT is not what captain supposed to do, yeah, but sometimes it's inevitable).

It's actually very hard to do all this shit, so most captains don't bother. You should try some time.

[Alex Crimson]

Chain of command. Each head is responsible for his own department. The underlings report to the head, the head reports to the captain. It is not your job to go do jobs other people should be doing. If there are no engineers then sure, go set up the singluo. Situations like that are fine. But you do not say... go set up cryo if there are already medical staff around.

As i said, overseeing the station is his main job. But going to do the work of others is not. A captain can do his job without leaving the bridge if he wants. It doesnt mean he is an incompetent captain.

[TheTerbs]

As captain, the station is your playground

It's not your job to make sure that singuloh is set up.

It's not your job isn't to make sure that medbay set up cryo and isn't mass producing mutagen and lube.

It's your job to make sure that robotics makes badass stompy mechs

It's your job to make sure that miners will deliver materials to R&D for mechs

It's your job to make sure that R&D will upgrade everything and produce bitchin weapons and shit

ftfy

also with this logic why do we have other heads or even other jobs if its the captains job to do them for them

[Munchlax]

All of the reasons Lo6a4eskiy listed is why there are heads.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

If others don't do it, do it yourself. It's better than bitching at non-existent engineers that power went off because you didn't bother to check.

[kosmos]

HoP would become fucking useless without being able to assign heads, since now apparently every head can manage their own personnel instead of Head of PERSONNEL who's supposed to manage personnel. Captain has more shit to deal with other than managing personnel.

So, if HoP's power reduction makes him instantly completely useless, we are only left with the option to antagproof HoP to make him a less overpowered antag? I'm fine with that too.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

You don't need any options to fix problem that doesn't exist.

[kosmos]

You don't need any options to fix problem that doesn't exist.

Well since this thread was made, there's obviously a problem. And I agree, HoP is an excessively overpowered antag. This should be balanced out a bit.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

What can HoP do that others cannot and that cannot be countered in some way?

[AseaHeru]

Give everyone all access.
Granted, captain can do that, but they have other things to do too.

[Nalar]

Just because a thread was made does not mean there's a problem. It means there's an opinion on something that some may potentially see as a problem.

That said, the Captain really should be keeping an eye on the HoP anyway, given how he can hand out all-access passes without any real negative effects. In terms of what the OP is going for, I entirely disagree. This game is centered around paranoia and distrust, the idea that your co-workers may not be who they say they are, and this only really seems to serve to remove yet another thing that actually adds to that aspect of the game of the game in return for not having to be suspicious of the HoP helping antags by giving out all access. The captain can easily counter and if necessary order the arrest for anything the HoP does, and a lot of HoPs hand out all-access to everyone regardless of whether or not they're an antag (whether or not that's an okay thing is a different matter). If you want to tackle the issue, tackling it at the roots would be a better and more preferable idea to me.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Give everyone all access.
Granted, captain can do that, but they have other things to do too.

It only matters if you are cultist. Or ling to some degree, I suppose. You think that all access is overpowered, but really, it's not. The nature of HoP's all access is that nobody cares him wandering around all over the place. Anyone else with all access will be spotted and probably dunked, especially if doing something suspicious.

[bandit]

Give everyone all access.
Granted, captain can do that, but they have other things to do too.

It only matters if you are cultist.

And HoP can't be roundstart cult anymore.

[ShizCalev]

Making people antagproof is literally Hitler.

HoP doesn't start the round loyalty implanted, therefor there is a chance he *gasp* MIGHT NOT BE LOYAL.

#RemoveAntagproofing2014

[Alex Crimson]

Then how about we go with just removing his ability to grant head-level and security access? Something i think shouldve been done a long time ago.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Then how about we go with just removing his ability to grant head-level and security access? Something i think shouldve been done a long time ago.

HoP would become fucking useless without being able to assign heads, since now apparently every head can manage their own personnel instead of Head of PERSONNEL who's supposed to manage personnel. Captain has more shit to deal with other than managing personnel.

Just add fucking logs to ID computer. We'll have retarded fucking AIs going "OH NO LAW 1 HOP GAVE ALL ACCESS TO PERSON TURN OFF POWER IN HOPS", but that's the problem with AIs and why some people should be jobbanned from AIs, not ID computer problem.

Admittedly it might be space consuming to track every single level of access that was changed on the ID, but still.

[Alex Crimson]

I already replied to your comment a while ago.

[TheTerbs]

Then how about we go with just removing his ability to grant head-level and security access? Something i think shouldve been done a long time ago.

why does hop exist at all then

[Lo6a4evskiy]

It's like saying "scientists are OP they can make bombs others can't remove toxins" though.

We don't remove one's JOB because it can benefit them as antag. It's just silly. It's like cutting off hurt limb instead of treating it.

Add logging to ID computers. Then if HoP gives away all access and nothing's done about it, it's totally captain's and HoS's fault.