/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

lutrin wrote:The main advantage of this would be that you don't need to have the wiki page open/memorized in order to do any surgery

Surgical computers exist for a reason.

cedarbridge wrote:

lutrin wrote:The main advantage of this would be that you don't need to have the wiki page open/memorized in order to do any surgery

Surgical computers exist for a reason.

The surgical computer says the next step is "splice nerves".

Which tool do you use?

Looking it up on the wiki is cheating.

I skipped most of the thread, so someone might have mentioned these things already.


I'm all for making medbay a bit more complex, a bit more reliant on revival over cloning. Some changes to the current mechanics around using synthflesh/surgery to fix someone before defibbing would help with this, most notably its hard to do because you just dont have enough time after someone dies. You also need to use way too much synthflesh to fix damage for it to be very viable or even a good solution.

We should be extremely careful about making medbay visits take too long though. Playing CM, getting hit by something once and spending the next 30 minutes getting healed is absolutely no fun. It also changes the balance around a lot, which means some threats get way stronger/weaker as a result. What's a wizard/obvious solo antag to do if he can no longer heal fully with meds?


As a side note, medbay suffers from not having any engaging activities at the start of rounds. We really should do something about that, although I got no good ideas.

Shaps has good ideas and i trust him cuz he is a medbay mainer

cedarbridge wrote:

lutrin wrote:The main advantage of this would be that you don't need to have the wiki page open/memorized in order to do any surgery

Surgical computers exist for a reason.

how many situations do you encounter where you have access to a surgical computer but not a full suite of surgical tools?

Copypasta from https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/44531

If you're interested in playing around with healing I'd like to see 3 aspects for each main damage:

The No med option which is usually the worst. Example is CPR.
The Emergency option which is really good at healing the primary damage but it comes at a health trade. I guess perf is currently the only example of this. Maybe calomel at high health.
The "Best" option which is alright at healing, comes at no health cost, but is difficult to make and the least "macro friendly" or otherwise difficult to obtain. Salbu is a good example.

If we're going to add healing options, I would prefer they be 1 or 2. As of right now I don't really see 3's being okayed by me unless some of the other chems be removed.

Personally I don't find the medicines themselves "fun" aspects of the job (well not since foamestry died out but that was because it was OP). What I want from MD is to challenge players to make tough decisions in order to keep players alive to the best of their ability. I want to have to occasionally spin plates after a murderbone, make a quick decision between waiting for a chem to be made vs giving them the potentially lethal emergency chem, stuff like that. That way if the obstacle is overcomed and the players are still kicking, I feel like I defeated a boss of sorts.

I guess I'm trying to give medbay the dark souls appeal???

As for the patches, I don't think i'm a fan of the blizzard style of balancing, at least for ss13. I don't think we should "shake the meta" of patches by having a competitive alternative while we still have plenty of alternatives that aren't even bad themselves. They're just not as stupidly strong as patches lol.

I really like the idea of field surgery for EMT stuff. Playing EMT is a really good way to spice up medical doctor, there should definitely be some focus on that with the rework. It'd be really sick to do short procedures to heal wounds outside medbay, but I think it'd have to come hand in hand with a nerf to medicines. A synthflesh patch just does your entire job, not engaging at all.

TrumpetPlaya wrote:I really like the idea of field surgery for EMT stuff. Playing EMT is a really good way to spice up medical doctor, there should definitely be some focus on that with the rework. It'd be really sick to do short procedures to heal wounds outside medbay, but I think it'd have to come hand in hand with a nerf to medicines. A synthflesh patch just does your entire job, not engaging at all.

Definitely agreed there, though I'm mostly speaking as someone who doesn't play much medical. How should field surgery work?

Also, on the topic of general surgery, I had some ideas there as well- could anesthesia be incorporated as a function of the surgery table + console? Like, you'd press a button on the console, and as long as the patient had a vacant mouth slot, it'd deploy a breathmask with a supply of N2O onto them?

Also, another note on surgery and the console- one thing I saw mentioned was making surgery more free-formed. As a thought, what if there were two ways to do a surgery- one with the drapes, which would be shower but show the steps (in better detail, like with an icon for the right tool besides each instruction on the console) and have less risk, and free-form (no drapes), which would go faster but require memorizing the steps?.. or having the wiki open, at least, heh. Field surgery would probably work like that, too.

in terms of field surgery you would drag around a hospital bed and use sterillizer gel so none of the steps fail. im not sure if you can currently do surgery on those beds but that could be added really easily.

Oh, yeah, that makes sense! Maybe add an upgraded, self-sterilizing roller bed to a late science leaf, too?

I think generally a bit more use for surgery is good. As far as broader stuff goes, I think less reliance on cryo and cloning, and more ways to stabilize / treat people manually, would generally be good. One kind of weird idea I had was actually making cloning a function of cryogenic tubes- there'd be a certain upgrade and / or rare chemical to load them with, that'd be able to restore corpses to life inside it.

I just want an ability to use the advanced surgeries on the move, maybe a special advanced surgical drapes that synchs to consoles, similar to the borg surgical computer upgrade.

attempting to do basic wound tending surgery in the field is painfully slow and fails do more damage than it heals.

Similar to what Dr_Bee says but with a more hot take approach. I'm sick of the server failing to change for medical. I think medical needs to change and fit the mood of the server.

Now how do we do that? Cobblestone has added a great basis called the healing surgery. You put someone on a surgery bed, do a few steps and then spam the last step until they're all good. Not that tedious, simple, but you do feel like you're making a difference as you bring someone out of crit in the same way you'd put someone into crit. By bashing them with your hemostat until they get back up.

I think we should replace "Medics" with "EMTs" They spawn with a roller-bed in their bag. Their medikit is replaced with a couple of bottles of medicine. Like Sulf and Styptic. And they get a crew-pinpointer. They run around trying to find injured crew-members and, like security. Will very easily run into the fast-paced action that makes /tg/ work.

To bring them back to medical. They will have the ability to make their rollerbed surgeries better, by learning the advanced surgeries after doing them once on a surgical table. This trait should be unique to the EMTs to further signify the importance of their job. Field Healing those greyshits who decided to fight in the bar.

I think it'd fit very much. Instead of slowing down the game to alleviate the problems with medical. We instead speed it up and make medical themselves fast-paced Emergency workers. Ripe in that tension and violence as they swarm to maint to help the guy going ;HELP BEING KILLED BY TRAITOR

Edit: To put this idea even more into your heads. Imagine you picked up a body on a rollerbed, you're trying to drag it away and do surgery on it at the same time. Suddenly a traitor with a double-esword comes chasing behind you. Trying to slice up the body and you yourself. You, quickly trying to heal it and run away at the same time are caught in a climactic chase where one misstep will lead to your body being unrecoverable, and some bad damage for yourself.

Doesn't this fit the tone of /tg/ more? Climax instead of seldom waiting times and boredom?

That sounds horrible shadow. Smacking people with a healing stick is not fun. Having to get your patient to a safe place before doing surgery is great. I just dislike having to build an entire computer system or carry around 2 rods and a bar of silver if I want to do wound treatment at all in the field.

I dig what your saying Dr_Bee.

Remove the learning trait idea. Leave them with Epi-Pens and other stabilizers.

I've mentioned this in another thread but here's an idea for cloning.

Clone damage is tied to how damaged the corpse was upon scan. If you go out your way to heal a corpse to %100 HP it clones with 0 clone damage. The more damaged it is, the more clone damage it has as the cloning machine is trying to guess at what the missing flesh might be and not doing a very good job of it. Sci upgrades would allow it to compensate for a % of damage. Missing limbs count as fully damaged and cloning just a brain will create a retard body most of the time.

Or perhaps nix the idea of clone damage completely and just make it extend the cloning timer. Outside of rezadone and the abductor gun the only reason clone damage exists is to make you sit longer in the cryo cell after being cloned, might as well roll that shit into the clone pod for all the difference it makes.

GuyonBroadway wrote:I've mentioned this in another thread but here's an idea for cloning.

Clone damage is tied to how damaged the corpse was upon scan. If you go out your way to heal a corpse to %100 HP it clones with 0 clone damage. The more damaged it is, the more clone damage it has as the cloning machine is trying to guess at what the missing flesh might be and not doing a very good job of it. Sci upgrades would allow it to compensate for a % of damage. Missing limbs count as fully damaged and cloning just a brain will create a retard body most of the time.

Or perhaps nix the idea of clone damage completely and just make it extend the cloning timer. Outside of rezadone and the abductor gun the only reason clone damage exists is to make you sit longer in the cryo cell after being cloned, might as well roll that shit into the clone pod for all the difference it makes.

Make the "retard body" a special race that will just randomly get various effects (some good, most bad) because of biological instability.

cool and fun ideas for how to make death more meaningful re: cloning

step 1: nerf existing cloning significantly. clones that come out of the cloner, made purely from recorded dna, should be in absolute shit state, and require not only extensive time in the cyrotube but also manual surgical procedures of some sort to fix their new body (too many organs, not enough organs, fucked up bones, etc). ideally, the two factors that make current cloning viable should be a player willingly sitting down and working on it, and rnd tech upgrades to speed up the process. maybe add some kind of cyrotube-sleeper so that medbay workers can operate on clones while they're being cyro'd.

step 2: add the New Nanotrasen Clonervat 2.44(tm). a single machine located further in medbay that essentially acts as a much better method of cloning, capable of producing mostly or entirely healthy clones just by sticking the dna in and hitting the button. however, the clonevat requires embryonic fetuses* to serve as 'templates' for the new body. the funky fetuses not only have to be kept safe in fetus jars kept in a cyrotube fridge, but medbay only starts with 1 or 2 of them, and growing a new fetus requires 4 different dna samples from crewmembers. each sample can only be used once, so the clonevat is essentially limited to producing 2+(crew / 4) fetuses, limiting how many fastclones can be made per round in a way that scales with population. ideally this would be combined with some way to keep players from just using monkey samples, might not work with nonhuman species (how do you grow a moth from a human fetus), and obviously nanotrasen would rather you not waste your limited clonevat uses on people who arent Important Crewmembers

step 3: give other departments way to make fetus analogues, so that non-medbay departments who are doing their job can increase the number of fastclones per round. some ideas include letting botany make plant fetuses, xenobio making slime fetuses, mining dig up ancient robot fetuses, etc. the big difference between this and stuff like podpeople/xenogolems is that medbay can make proper clones that retain memories or whatever as opposed to the ghosted players starting fresh as podpeople/xenogolems

tl;dr: make current cloning slow and laborious and add a fast and easy newclone method that requires a finite resource, and make medbay reliant on other departments to get more of that resource

*i dont know if fetuses make sense but it feels very ss13 to say "we can't clone the captain because the clown stole the fetus jars and filled them with banana juice"

Just saying, being removed from a round for good isn't fun. There's a limited ammount of deadroles, and honestly, with how easy it IS to kill people, round long permadeath is pretty annoying.

Reyn wrote:Just saying, being removed from a round for good isn't fun. There's a limited ammount of deadroles, and honestly, with how easy it IS to kill people, round long permadeath is pretty annoying.

And cloning already has really gay side effects. Yesterday I got cloned without eyeballs during a rev round, meaning I couldn't do anything and nobody was around to give me eye surgery.

Sandshark808 wrote:

Reyn wrote:Just saying, being removed from a round for good isn't fun. There's a limited ammount of deadroles, and honestly, with how easy it IS to kill people, round long permadeath is pretty annoying.

And cloning already has really gay side effects. Yesterday I got cloned without eyeballs during a rev round, meaning I couldn't do anything and nobody was around to give me eye surgery.

Hell one recent time after being cloned my character kept having fucking muscle spasms , which, as mime, I couldn't vocally complain about, So i tried to hint at it in emotes and the fact I was randomly hitting myself and other people. And I was ignored completely. Eventually I ended up with the spasams critting me and eventually having me die. Nice.

Reyn wrote:Just saying, being removed from a round for good isn't fun. There's a limited ammount of deadroles, and honestly, with how easy it IS to kill people, round long permadeath is pretty annoying.

have you tried to git gud and not die?
dying is a punishment to being bad or being in the wrong place/wrong time
take it on the chin

teepeepee wrote:

Reyn wrote:Just saying, being removed from a round for good isn't fun. There's a limited ammount of deadroles, and honestly, with how easy it IS to kill people, round long permadeath is pretty annoying.

have you tried to git gud and not die?
dying is a punishment to being bad or being in the wrong place/wrong time
take it on the chin

Yes, "Don't Die" when someone fucking decides to go in with Emp grenade spam and a DEsword when you don't have any non energy weapons, leading to you being torn up.

"Git Gud" isnt very fucking helpful advice for dying just because you're doing your job with reason to expect that some boy will suddenly, out of the blue, come into brig with a desword, essentially vomiting out emp grenades, while you're just arresting someone for breaking in. Nice.

EMPs don't drain stunbatons completely, and energy weapons would be useless against a desword anyways, so stunbaton or a shotgun (your warden should be in the brig and has this) is your go-to option
as I said, git gud

teepeepee wrote:EMPs don't drain stunbatons completely, and energy weapons would be useless against a desword anyways, so stunbaton or a shotgun (your warden should be in the brig and has this) is your go-to option
as I said, git gud

It's a game lad. Being able to be revived and come back into the round is part of the fun, and making revival really awful and punishing so people have to wait 30+ minutes to play again is lame.

teepeepee wrote:EMPs don't drain stunbatons completely, and energy weapons would be useless against a desword anyways, so stunbaton or a shotgun (your warden should be in the brig and has this) is your go-to option
as I said, git gud

We had no reason to be using the shotgun at that point! Also, This is assuming A. I can click for shit, in which case if this is the only factor, my bad fucking play, it's fair to say I have to git gud.
B. The warden is compitent, alive, and not trapped in his office while this clusterfuck occurs.
C. We had a reason to have armoury open
D. I was expecting to have some twirly clusterfuck attack from out of the blue.


If it's A which is the case, Fair. I need to get good. Otherwise, there are some situations where death is hard, or nigh impossible to avoid.

Reyn wrote:...there are some situations where death is hard, or nigh impossible to avoid.

The Rules wrote:10. Losing is part of the game.
Your character will frequently die, sometimes without even a possibility of avoiding it. Events will often be out of your control. No matter how good or prepared you are, sometimes you just lose.

wrong place/wrong time covers this too, git gud and accept you won't always win
part of this being a game is losing, get used to it and you will enjoy it more

teepeepee wrote:

Reyn wrote:...there are some situations where death is hard, or nigh impossible to avoid.

The Rules wrote:10. Losing is part of the game.
Your character will frequently die, sometimes without even a possibility of avoiding it. Events will often be out of your control. No matter how good or prepared you are, sometimes you just lose.

wrong place/wrong time covers this too, git gud and accept you won't always win
part of this being a game is losing, get used to it and you will enjoy it more

So... I guess I just should salt in deadchat once i'm dead or call out bullshit? Alright then.

get out of this thread please

Reyn wrote:

teepeepee wrote:

Reyn wrote:...there are some situations where death is hard, or nigh impossible to avoid.

The Rules wrote:10. Losing is part of the game.
Your character will frequently die, sometimes without even a possibility of avoiding it. Events will often be out of your control. No matter how good or prepared you are, sometimes you just lose.

wrong place/wrong time covers this too, git gud and accept you won't always win
part of this being a game is losing, get used to it and you will enjoy it more

So... I guess I just should salt in deadchat once i'm dead or call out bullshit? Alright then.

Literally yes

Can we tie cloning to the economy?

Gotta pay for your clone, pay for your DNA being on record?

Can afford the perfect clone then you get the discount Billy default clone.

Perhaps the wrong soul gets attached to your new shell? Cloning doesn't mean you come back each time but maybe a faster ghost hijacked your new empty shell.

As for medical procedures I really like the addition of the diagnostic machine outside medical. Perhaps when doctors cant be bothered to do the needed surgery you can get a slower automated kiosk surgery?

there's an admin verb to make the station ancap that makes you pay for cloning, but I haven't gotten any feedback about anyone using it.

delaron wrote:Perhaps when doctors cant be bothered to do the needed surgery you can get a slower automated kiosk surgery?

I'm definitely against anything that takes a multiplayer game and turns it into a single player one, so I'd say no to this.

oranges wrote:

delaron wrote:Perhaps when doctors cant be bothered to do the needed surgery you can get a slower automated kiosk surgery?

I'm definitely against anything that takes a multiplayer game and turns it into a single player one, so I'd say no to this.

Fair point and I agree with the direction of your stance.

oranges wrote:

delaron wrote:Perhaps when doctors cant be bothered to do the needed surgery you can get a slower automated kiosk surgery?

I'm definitely against anything that takes a multiplayer game and turns it into a single player one, so I'd say no to this.

Opinion on a machine like this but it requires a guy standing next to it for it to work? My problem with surgery right now is one guy has nothing to do while the other guy has to be actively doing the surgery the whole time. The patient just sits there doing nothing or alt tabs and the surgeon just clicks repeatedly and doesn't talk because talking would just slow the surgery down. Its a boring process for both parties

so your solution is to remove the gameplay for both? wow you are truly a genius of unparalleled brilliance.