Survey to restore objectivity regarding department balance

A place to record your ideas for the game.
Post Reply
AnActualDog
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:09 pm
Byond Username: An actual dog

Survey to restore objectivity regarding department balance

Post by AnActualDog » #471744

So. Lads. Who else feels like rolling a boulder up a mountain over and over? :honk: Because its time to try to OBJECTIVELY tackle the issue of department balance. And I got an idea for that. Please hear me out.

So first of all: No one can balance this game perfectly and with complete fairness (even if they could code like a god). We all have our biases, we all have had very different experiences. Especially because we main some departments and never play others, but also because we all have different personalities and interact with this game differently because of them. So what do we do if we want to try anyway?

I've been thinking: Maybe the only way to create some "artificial objectivity" is to gather tons of subjective data and take the average values. We do that by comparing departments to each other within the different areas of "power" the job has, since each department shines in different ways. We collect tons of opinions in form of ranking them against each other in said areas. Next we determine how big of a role each of those areas plays within the game to decide how much weight each set of data in the different areas should have to determine the overall "power level" of the job. In the end we just multiply the values the departments got in the different areas by the factor that we decided best represents how much influence the area should have when it comes to balancing the job. In theory, after we collect enough data and I create a middle value for it all, we'll be able to objectively answer: Which department needs to be nerfed? Which department needs to be buffed? Let's find out!
(>implying the coders will care)

:wetfloorsign: Just so you know, this is the first time I have ever attempted anything like this, so pls no bullying if there are some obvious problems I didn't notice! :wetfloorsign:

The survey I came up with looks like this:
Image

I'm attaching the chart to this post. Download it, fill in the estimates you sincerely feel to be true, upload the filled out chart in this thread and if enough people participate I'll evaluate all the data and we'll see how, as a whole, the community feels about job balance. (The idea is to >EVENTUALLY end up with a somewhat objective overall "power level" for each department.)

We're taking the game balance and are giving it back to you... the people. :newcop:

:toolbox: EDIT 1:
Replaced the numbers system to make it less of a chore to rank it all. The old system was better for comparing individual departments to each other, but it's a chore and it becomes ineffective as soon as some departments are exactly equal in one area while others differ hugely from each other within the same area. Now you can actually fill it out much faster. Oh also "time investment" got replaced by "early game" and "late game" since that's a bit more of a clear definition.
Attachments
ss13 balance survey V2.ods
(13.86 KiB) Downloaded 127 times
Last edited by AnActualDog on Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
BeeSting12
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:11 am
Byond Username: BeeSting12
Github Username: BeeSting12
Location: 'Murica

Re: Survey to restore objectivity regarding department balance

Post by BeeSting12 » #471746

lol nice try trying to get me to download a virus
Edward Sloan, THE LAW
Melanie Flowers, Catgirl
Borgasm, Cyborg
Spoiler:
OOC: Hunterh98: to be fair sloan is one of the, if not the, most robust folks on tg

DEAD: Schlomo Gaskin says, "sloan may be a faggot but he gets the job done"

DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "YOU'RE EVERYWHERE WHERE BAD SHIT IS HAPPENING"
DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "IT'S ALWAYS FUCKING EDWARD SLOAN"
oranges wrote:Bee sting is honestly the nicest admin, I look forward to seeing him as a headmin one day
[2020-05-21 01:21:48.923] SAY: Crippo/(Impala Chainee) "Shaggy Voice - She like... wants to get Eiffel Towered bro!!" (Brig (125, 166, 2))
hows my driving?
AnActualDog
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:09 pm
Byond Username: An actual dog

Re: Survey to restore objectivity regarding department balance

Post by AnActualDog » #471750

Oh, also, make sure to post your byond key in here when you upload a filled out chart. We gotta at least put SOME effort into avoiding samefagging.
User avatar
Horza
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:43 pm
Byond Username: HorzBor

Re: Survey to restore objectivity regarding department balance

Post by Horza » #471810

I like the idea but the execution can be better. Namely, something other than a voluntary spreadsheet.
The categories can also be finely gradated as well, depending on the detail you want to get into. Let's say time investment as an example, "job potential" is a weird term when it comes to time, because you can crank out basic healing chems as a Chemist in 15 minutes, then crank out tons of drugs and shit in another 15 or so, if you know what you're doing. But whoa hey engineering irradiated itself because the CE walked into the inner SME chamber without a radiation suit and now you need to spend 10 minutes cranking out enough pentetic and mutadone to handle half the station. Or engineering. It takes 5 minutes to set up the SME and another 5-10 to wire solars, single-handedly, if all you want to do is basic bitch power generation. If you want to do custom loops, generate autism power from the SME, generate autism gases from the SME, make new solar arrays for redundancy and a greenshift project, it'll take 30 minutes or more. Same with Atmos - setting up the basic loop is so easy that you can fuck off with a hardsuit in 5 minutes, but making it fire-capable, or setting up the turbine engine, or making autism gas to turn the station radioactive takes time. I've seen atmostechs spend 2+ hours on fusion before, or harvest enough pluox to hand out better emergency tanks for people. Meanwhile people like the Cook and Bartender are absolutely useless on Bagil rounds where the shuttle is called before anyone is even hungry enough to start dying.

Just discuss this shit, it can be better explained through walls of autism rather than vague numbers.
Spürdo spädre sbrölölö :DDDDD
AnActualDog
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:09 pm
Byond Username: An actual dog

Re: Survey to restore objectivity regarding department balance

Post by AnActualDog » #471843

Hey, I love writing walls of autism, don't get me wrong, but I feel like they don't get the attention they deserve because I feel like the average attention span of people dies a little more every day...
You're right that "job potential" is VERY vague / subjective, especially in context with time investment. I'd say Chemistry and Engineering are somewhere in the middle in that category - they need little time to take care of basic needs but especially engineering needs lots of time for their complex projects. I'd like to argue though that since subjectivity is an integral part of this survey this sort of counteracts this issue a little bit. But yeah maybe it would be better to get rid of the "time investment" and instead add "early game potential" and "late game potential", maybe even "mid game potential".

I wish I had a system that would collect similar sets of data but requires less work from the volunteers. The problem is that the point of my idea is that in the end all of the data paints an objective picture of the game and its department as a whole - and the game is huge and has many departments, so it's going to be tricky either way.
User avatar
MisterPerson
Board Moderator
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:26 pm
Byond Username: MisterPerson

Re: Survey to restore objectivity regarding department balance

Post by MisterPerson » #472016

You need to make this a google survey so it's not a humongous pain in the ass to fill out.
I code for the code project and moderate the code sections of the forums.

Feedback is dumb and it doesn't matter
AnActualDog
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:09 pm
Byond Username: An actual dog

Re: Survey to restore objectivity regarding department balance

Post by AnActualDog » #472030

MisterPerson wrote:You need to make this a google survey so it's not a humongous pain in the ass to fill out.
I think what really made this a pain to fill out is the system itself, I just changed that. When I filled it out myself I noticed just how cancerous it really was. Now it's way less time intensive.
If this project actually receives attention I will probably work on it even more and probably move it to google surveys.

I filled out the old survey anyway and I'm attaching it here, just for the sake of transparency - I'll just rework it into the new system if the evaluation phase ever gets reached.
Attachments
balance survey_AnActualDog.ods
(15.79 KiB) Downloaded 129 times
Tlaltecuhtli
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:16 am
Byond Username: Tlaltecuhtli

Re: Survey to restore objectivity regarding department balance

Post by Tlaltecuhtli » #472035

lmao wtf is this thread
User avatar
Lumbermancer
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:40 am
Byond Username: Lumbermancer

Re: Survey to restore objectivity regarding department balance

Post by Lumbermancer » #472041

MisterPerson wrote:You need to make this a google survey so it's not a humongous pain in the ass to fill out.
aka Schlomo Gaskin aka Guru Meditation aka Copyright Alright aka Topkek McHonk aka Le Rouge
Image
AnActualDog
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:09 pm
Byond Username: An actual dog

Re: Survey to restore objectivity regarding department balance

Post by AnActualDog » #472057

For now I feel like people care so little that they won't even fill it out if I moved it to google. And since I never worked with google forms before I'd have to invest a lot of time again that would probably just be wasted.
If people actually cared I'd be motivated but I guess most people don't even understand the purpose of this.

Who knows, maybe it'll receive some attention in the community meeting. I probably won't. But at least I tried something to help out.
4dplanner
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:51 am
Byond Username: 4DPlanner
Github Username: 4dplanner

Re: Survey to restore objectivity regarding department balance

Post by 4dplanner » #472060

Yeah, but if you DON'T move it to google it definitely won't be filled out.
Image
User avatar
D&B
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:23 am
Byond Username: Repukan
Location: *teleports behind you*

Re: Survey to restore objectivity regarding department balance

Post by D&B » #472082

Xenobio is the most busted and unbalanced department
Spoiler:
[20:26:02]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Welp. It was just a prank bro isn't a very good excuse when it comes to unprovoked nonantag murder, but since this is your first time doing it and you seem to understand the problem instead of a bannu I'm just going to leave you with a warning. Please PLEASE don't do this again in the future, as funny as crackhead broken bottle memes can be. Alrighty? Do you have any input on this?
[20:26:39]ADMIN: PM: [censored]->[censored admin]: Alright, no problem. I have some input. Fuck my boy pussy.
[20:27:06]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Okay then. Have fun.
[20:31:29]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Excuse me?
J_Madison wrote: that's a stupid fucking stat
you don't play, you've never played
lying little shit with your bullshit stat
fuck you
ColonicAcid wrote:and with enough practise i too could blow my own dick so well that only the gods know how it feels.
User avatar
MMMiracles
Code Maintainer
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:27 am
Byond Username: MMMiracles
Github Username: MMMiracles

Re: Survey to restore objectivity regarding department balance

Post by MMMiracles » #472088

if you ask for public opinion on such a large subject and don't bother to make it easily accessible to actually fill out said opinion then don't complain when nobody can be bothered to do it
Spoiler:
Hints:
------
Submitted by: sandstorm

The best way to get a girl/boy friend is to click on them say "hi" then push enter
then say "your cute" then push enter,wait until they say somthing back if they
don't go for another.
User avatar
Cobby
Code Maintainer
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: Survey to restore objectivity regarding department balance

Post by Cobby » #472104

I'm confused, if it's fact based which departments are more overtuned than others can't that be explained in another medium besides an opinion poll?
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
AnActualDog
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:09 pm
Byond Username: An actual dog

Re: Survey to restore objectivity regarding department balance

Post by AnActualDog » #472149

Cobby wrote:I'm confused, if it's fact based which departments are more overtuned than others can't that be explained in another medium besides an opinion poll?
Of course, I'm not claiming that this idea here is the only way to do this. It's just something I came up with. But I guess people need this to be as simple as possible to even consider it.
Tlaltecuhtli
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:16 am
Byond Username: Tlaltecuhtli

Re: Survey to restore objectivity regarding department balance

Post by Tlaltecuhtli » #472159

are we going to give every department their equivalent of taser and stunbaton? when did we need to make an overwatch champions chart for this seasons metapicks?
AnActualDog
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:09 pm
Byond Username: An actual dog

Re: Survey to restore objectivity regarding department balance

Post by AnActualDog » #472162

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:are we going to give every department their equivalent of taser and stunbaton? when did we need to make an overwatch champions chart for this seasons metapicks?
Combat is only one area out of many that's being considered here.
User avatar
Drynwyn
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:09 pm
Byond Username: Drynwyn

Re: Survey to restore objectivity regarding department balance

Post by Drynwyn » #472546

This is quantification, not objectivity.

Putting numbers of subjective questions about how overpowered something is doesn't make those questions 'objective', because game design centers around engagement, and engagement is intrinsically subjective.
In game, I play the A.I Firmware, the French cyborg C.U.R.I.E, Aubrie Allen, and the lizard scum Skulks-Through-Maintenance.
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users