/tg/Station 13

Goof is currently in the process of making new health system which takes hp, throws it out the window and replaces with pure trauma management system

Traumas are essentially what current brain traumas are but generalised to all organs and bodyparts, i.e. a token which does something to a mob when present

Each organ and bodypart will have a separate list of possible traumas, each trauma will specifically interact with its organ/bodypart type
Items which can inflict traumas will have either a bitflag-related(or maybe defines if we will have too many sybsets of possible traumas) subset of possible traumas, with each organs/bodyparts traumas list separated by the bitflags(defines), for example "piencing-minor" or "toxic-brutal"
Each time an item with possible traumas connects a hit to an organ/bodypart(as in its not a miss and not blocked by armour) special trauma-recipe system will check what traumas are already present, what is the possible list of traumas this item can inflict, and then through some numbers magic(weights, chances, this is just question of balance) will decide should it apply new trauma and what type should it be

The idea behind this system is to make all items less illidiately-deadly and more later-fucks-you-up

In this thread post your proposals for different traumas for different organs/bodyparts

For example:

Minor nerve damage - applicable to arms and legs, applicable by medium or bigger sized sharp objects and big blunt objects
Generates slight pain when applied
For legs, when moving generates slight pain(mood down + slowdown for limbs based on amount of pain), when running generates moderate pain
For arms, when holding something generates slight pain, when using something generates moderate pain, has a chance to drop whats in hand when using item in that hand
Doesnt heal with time, needs to be treated, complicated treatment(operation or injection of a high tier chem with scanning), very fast healing after treatment
Multiple applications promote existing minor nerve damage to a medium nerve damage

Bruise - applicable to all organs and bodyparts, applicable to arms, legs, head and groin by any objects, to internal organs by medium or bigger sized objects
Periodically generates slight pain for limbs, occasionally generates moderate pain in internal organs
Can heal itself with a bit of time, treating makes healing over time faster, simple treatment(apply of ointments)
Multiple applications work independantly 90% of times, 10% chance to promote existing bruise to a large bruise

Large bruise - applicable to all organs and bodyparts, applicable to arms, legs, head and groin by medium or bigger blunt objects, to internal organs by big sized objects
Generates moderate pain when applied and periodically
Bruises applied to this organ generate moderate pain on application
Can heal itself over some time, treating lowers the periodical and bruise-applicable pain to slight from moderate and makes healing over time faster, moderate treatment(injection for faster healing and a patch for lower applicable damage for limbs, with internal organs needs scanning for injection and no way to lower applicable damage from new bruises)



You got the idea, post em up idea bois

My idea is to not do any of that

Razharas wrote:Goof

I'm going to stop you right there

*music stops*

leibniz wrote:

Razharas wrote:Goof

I'm going to stop you right there

Get over it

PKPenguin321 wrote:My idea is to not do any of that

Get fucked

how will it interact with damaging chems? 1 new trauma for every kind of poison?

"Less instantly deadly"

On what timescale? Will I still be able to beat the shit out of someone before sec arrives, or will I be halfway through breaking their third rib?

Sure, this is a good idea.

Minor Brute Trauma:
Minor slowdown of use of limb, slight impact of performance on that organ/body part. For example if the hand is effected, takes a bit longer to pick something up or to use an item in your hand. Maybe able to be easily slept off in lying in a bed if no doctors are around.
Moderate Brute Trauma:
Performance of organ/body part moderately effected. If for example applied to hand, items would randomly drop out of it or not be usable. Maybe heal over a period of time if bruise pack or sleep is applied. Can be coupled with broken bones that need professional attention.
Major Brute Trauma:
Nonfunctional body part, high amount of pain. For example if applied to your hand, you wouldn't be able to pick up an item at all. Needs professional medical intervention. Often coupled with broken bones.

Minor Pain:
Very minor slowdown, plus very infrequent textual reminders you're in pain.
Moderate Pain:
Moderate slowdown. Moderate chance of pain paralysis and minor chance of passing out due to pain. Some reminders that oh shit, I'm in a fuck load of pain. A little bit of bloody screen so real.
Major Pain:
Bloody screen so real. Semi-obnoxious giant red textual reminders you're in pain. Screams of agony. Crawling as the only form of movement. Frequent paralysis due to shock (where speech is still possible). Frequent passing out (unconsciousness). Basically like crit, except more functional. Not actually correlated with death, in theory you can have high pain and be alive the whole time. Usually this would be coupled with wounds that result in death due to blood loss or internal organ damage though.

Artery Cut:
Limb is highly fragile and be dismembered or "broken off" with brute force very easily. Constant blood loss eventually leading to unconsciousness. Nonfunctional body part.

Broken Bone:
Has a chance of randomly proccing damage to nearby internal organs, non functional limb. Ribs and skull the most dangerous.

Punctured Lung/Stomach/Liver/etc:
OH SHIT YOU BETTER GET TO THE DOCTOR or you're gonna die. Blood loss.

Infection:
Steady amounts of tox damage accumulate that cannot be healed without proper chemical. If it gets bad enough you die.

The only bad thing ever goof did was the "economy", so let's give him a benefit of a doubt. I like the idea of more complex health/medical systems.

oranges wrote:*music stops*

*freeze frame*
Narrator: Yeah that's me. You're probably wondering how I got into this mess.

Don't use bitflags. You'll never want a bruise+nerve injury. If you did, make it 2 different injuries instead of one weird omniinjury. Unless you mean the organ would store the traumas as a bitflag, in which case ew no, use a list that stores trauma datums. A billion times easier to add new traumas, no limits on how many you can add, storable information like logging and timestamps, and you can define per-injury information like what kind of alert to generate, how much pain it causes, what messages to give to the player when they get/lose the trauma, etc on the injury itself instead of having to either make a single injury class or add functions to mobs to handle injuries.

Personally I dislike the idea solely because it will use that fucking targeting doll I hate with a passion, but for everyone else, this might strike an ok balance between making medical fun and Medbay's Wild Ride. I'm a wee bit concerned most mild injuries are just "If you do anything with this limb, you take pain" and/or "causes pain over time" and/or "eventually turns into a real problem" which is frankly both boring and confusing. And no, I don't consider "needs different thing to heal it" as interesting. So try to limit how many mild traumas you introduce. If the only difference is the name and what's needed to heal it, don't bother. For severe traumas be careful about making the game unplayable (blindness, passing out every 10 seconds, extreme slowdown, etc). The fun is in being killed by the effects in a situation you would otherwise survive or "beating" the injury, not suiciding because the game isn't fun to play anymore.

To answer some quesions:

1)For chemical cases it will be basically cut+paste of current chem effect into a trauma effects, each chem metabolism check it will just try to apply the effect through the appliance of the associated trauma(effects can be positive, trauma is just a name of a similar system we already have, can be named "health effect")

2)Bitflags of items arent a combination of what will be applied, its a combination of sublists with traumas which can be caused by weapons with such bitflag in an organ's list of all possible traumas, and so on, weapons bitflag is transformed into key by table like minor_cut = 1, minor_bludgeon = 2 and so on, maybe it will be all pure defines

3)Traumas will be either a roundstart init list with organs using a list with keys as refs to the inited singletons and values as lists of stored data(if there is anything to store, mostly time of last activation of periodic effects/time of recieving of this trauma) or straight up lists of datums, definitely not bitflags in ograns(i mean its possible but the system will be convoluted)

4)Immidiately deadly means exactly 7 clicks to death with a hatchet(crit is death), with traumas 7 clicks with a hatchet most likely wont kill you on the spot but almost certainly will fuck you up for the rest of the round unless you take a long medbay vacation, needless to say that all simple hp+ chems/bruisepack/ointment will be gone and at best there will be instant specific trauma removers in the higher grade of chemitry/research, all other chems and items at best will accelerate natural healing for traumas which can heal with time, but mostly be either symptom-removers or progression retardants of some specific traumas

5)Goof is good enough

“If you do anything with this limb, you take pain” was cozy in lifeweb because the wound wasn’t quite bad enough to cry for a medic over but you felt that guy beating you up long after

This is Needed, badly, but you can accomplish a lot with not going too deep. This difference is felt between just comparing Bay health to Goon. Goon is still considerably more in-depth than ours and relatively simple still nonetheless. One glaring problem with present 'hp' is that you fall down rather instantly at 0 and crit removes you from everything entirely. Which is fine, I suppose, if you want gameplay to remain where it's at.

With a more involved health system you can also have a more in-depth combat/stats for your game but they are needed together else the effect will be greatly overshadowed by the other.

most importantly this really does sound like lifeweb health so the only thing that'd make me harder for this is if it was actually finished

The proposed system does strike me as being similar to Lifewebs medical system, albeit likely less complex. I also notice the implication that pain will be more prominent of a feature, which is a staple of baymed and lifewebs systems as well.

In fact, literally all the suggestions I am reading are pretty close in style to Lifewubs system. Torn arteries, broken bones, infections, organ damage, pain, trauma.

How will disablers and tasers and batons work? Will disablers be dislocators? Will tasers be pain rays?

Replace prison cells with agony booths

Additional notes:

This system doesnt augment current one, it completely replaces it, this means there will be no hp bars on mobs, on organs, or on anything else, all kinds of damage will be emulated through traumas, be it toxic, blood loss, oxy loss, irradiation, pain, stamina or anything else we come up with, so when describing effect do specify how shall it work in the context of this system

Ideally mutations and viruses will be united with this and provide special abilities on organ basis through status effects too

Note that for things like blood-loss there will need to be implemented arterial/venous system as organ which will contain actual chemical reagent blood, as besides gameplay changes this change will also attempt at further decomposing mobs into bodypart-lego to cut the horrid entangled mob code we have right now into separate microservicesbodypart modules of which you will be able to compose anything you want

Dont be shy to propose more indepth organ representation either, if we have appendix we sure as hell can implement pancreas or inner ear structure should the need arise for more ways to fuck with mobs

confused rock wrote:most importantly this really does sound like lifeweb health so the only thing that'd make me harder for this is if it was actually finished

Goof is coding it so dont count on that.

this could make stuff like poisons into-> minor cyanide poisoning, mayor fentanyl,etc and instead of wait out for the poison to be processed into use a specifc antivenom while keeping the dude alive and have the doc find out what he got poisoned with by looking at the synthoms

Zarniwoop wrote:

confused rock wrote:most importantly this really does sound like lifeweb health so the only thing that'd make me harder for this is if it was actually finished

Goof is coding it so dont count on that.

Shut up and fuck off thanks, goof coded our chemistry, stocks were the coziest cargo ever was, goof made the tesla and you’re the kind of braindead idiot to like the tesla so quit talking shit about someone who actually tries

>goof coded our chemistry
an unforgivable offense

Alright thanks all I needed to know was that your words aren't worth considering

I've placed zarniwoop on post approval in the dev forum, since he's only here to sling shit.

It's doubly ironic, since his bitch ass hasn't coded shit.

Adding mystery to diagnoses would be pretty fun to be honest. Not fun for the victim but it would be like a mini episode of House MD for every injury.

You might actually have to ask your patients what they are feeling or what happened to them instead of slapping synthflesh on them. Which would actually encourage roleplay via mechanics.

Dr_bee wrote:Adding mystery to diagnoses would be pretty fun to be honest. Not fun for the victim but it would be like a mini episode of House MD for every injury.

You might actually have to ask your patients what they are feeling or what happened to them instead of slapping synthflesh on them. Which would actually encourage roleplay via mechanics.

That just seems unnecessary. You should be able to tell if someone was bashed in the head with a baseball bat without going so do you feel a thumping headache in the back of your head or a throbbing pain? quickly looks at wiki

Ayy Lemoh wrote:

Dr_bee wrote:Adding mystery to diagnoses would be pretty fun to be honest. Not fun for the victim but it would be like a mini episode of House MD for every injury.

You might actually have to ask your patients what they are feeling or what happened to them instead of slapping synthflesh on them. Which would actually encourage roleplay via mechanics.

That just seems unnecessary. You should be able to tell if someone was bashed in the head with a baseball bat without going so do you feel a thumping headache in the back of your head or a throbbing pain? quickly looks at wiki

More like, "where does it hurt? Your head? Did you get into any fights? no? did you eat anything recently? yes? it is probably a neurotoxin poison, we better administer some charcoal and monitor you for mental trauma's in case you need surgery"

No easy health scans, just examining the patient either with words or eyes.

Dr_bee wrote:

Ayy Lemoh wrote:

Dr_bee wrote:Adding mystery to diagnoses would be pretty fun to be honest. Not fun for the victim but it would be like a mini episode of House MD for every injury.

You might actually have to ask your patients what they are feeling or what happened to them instead of slapping synthflesh on them. Which would actually encourage roleplay via mechanics.

That just seems unnecessary. You should be able to tell if someone was bashed in the head with a baseball bat without going so do you feel a thumping headache in the back of your head or a throbbing pain? quickly looks at wiki

More like, "where does it hurt? Your head? Did you get into any fights? no? did you eat anything recently? yes? it is probably a neurotoxin poison, we better administer some charcoal and monitor you for mental trauma's in case you need surgery"

No easy health scans, just examining the patient either with words or eyes.

>requiring arpee

DemonFiren wrote:

Dr_bee wrote:

Ayy Lemoh wrote:

Dr_bee wrote:Adding mystery to diagnoses would be pretty fun to be honest. Not fun for the victim but it would be like a mini episode of House MD for every injury.

You might actually have to ask your patients what they are feeling or what happened to them instead of slapping synthflesh on them. Which would actually encourage roleplay via mechanics.

That just seems unnecessary. You should be able to tell if someone was bashed in the head with a baseball bat without going so do you feel a thumping headache in the back of your head or a throbbing pain? quickly looks at wiki

More like, "where does it hurt? Your head? Did you get into any fights? no? did you eat anything recently? yes? it is probably a neurotoxin poison, we better administer some charcoal and monitor you for mental trauma's in case you need surgery"

No easy health scans, just examining the patient either with words or eyes.

>requiring arpee

hey, making medical easier if you actually talk to your patient instead of throwing them in a machine in a game focused around roleplaying isnt exactly bad design.

Dr_bee wrote:

DemonFiren wrote:

Dr_bee wrote:

Ayy Lemoh wrote:

Dr_bee wrote:Adding mystery to diagnoses would be pretty fun to be honest. Not fun for the victim but it would be like a mini episode of House MD for every injury.

You might actually have to ask your patients what they are feeling or what happened to them instead of slapping synthflesh on them. Which would actually encourage roleplay via mechanics.

That just seems unnecessary. You should be able to tell if someone was bashed in the head with a baseball bat without going so do you feel a thumping headache in the back of your head or a throbbing pain? quickly looks at wiki

More like, "where does it hurt? Your head? Did you get into any fights? no? did you eat anything recently? yes? it is probably a neurotoxin poison, we better administer some charcoal and monitor you for mental trauma's in case you need surgery"

No easy health scans, just examining the patient either with words or eyes.

>requiring arpee

hey, making medical easier if you actually talk to your patient instead of throwing them in a machine in a game focused around roleplaying isnt exactly bad design.

No, of course it isn't a bad idea in a game focued on roleplaying.

If you're planning on going the route of have to diagnose conditions in order to treat them, I suggest that instead of that being the required method of treatment, make it a better version that's faster and more efficient for those that want to put in the effort to do their jobs as a doctor. Maybe patches or self treatment can cover the general damage at a slower pace, while a doctor can get some positive reinforcement with more effective and professional treatment that they can provide. I think that'd go a ways to alleviate people wordlessly walking in and self treating and ignoring medical staff, while also giving a chance for those who enjoy doing their job well as a doctor to get some appreciation from the patients.

is this baystation?

Expected method of trauma treatment is:

1)Notice that something is not right(like a text saying you are in an excruciating pain while rolling blinded on the floor)
2)Haul your ass to medbay or screm at your lungs that you need help in theatre maint
3)Doc examines you for any obvious shit like a gaping hole in your abdomen, then uses medscanner for any noticable internal structure damage like dislocations, closed bone fractures or lack of certain organs
4)If nothing onbvious shows up then you need to either have some special examination tools(ungraded med scanners, maybe even special machine like bluespace mrt or something), examination technicues like maybe special chems which allows one to see some hidden traumas, or even examinatory operation where you open dude up to see if theres anything wrong
5)When the offending trauma is found then doc gives you your daily dose treatment, sometimes its special tools or items like splint, sometimes special operation, maybe some medical chems
6)After proper treatment trauma will be gone either instantly or over time depending on trauma conditions

Small things can heal themselves over time or be treated with simple stuff like a bondage, but anything under your skin is pretty much beyond your reach or ability to diagnose

Razharas wrote:simple stuff like a bondage,

Woah now.
Memes aside, this sounds neat. Med scanners not just showing a straight list of traumas would be definitely a good decision though.

if getting drunk is an effective way to keep pain buildup at bay at least temporarily i'm 100% on board with this

Speaking of which, are pain and stamina two different things cause it sounds like they'd effectively serve the same function

I'm thinking of reviving https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/36090 (with changes). Is this not compatible with these health system changes? I'm speaking from a gameplay standpoint, not a code standpoint.

PKPenguin321 wrote:My idea is to not do any of that

This.

Also, this is relevant (from https://i.digg.com/r/SS13/comments/asbfrr/sigh/): https://i.redd.it/4jbpczvmkjh21.jpg

If you're on a lowpop round without many/any/competent Medbay personnel, life will be a living hell (and God help you if a traitor bombs Medbay or the Wizard kills everyone there and then ignores the new health system with a staff or wand of healing). Being a miner, an ash lizard, a free golem, or another lavaland role will also become pure agony, as you presumably won't give them any way to properly heal the injuries that they sustain from mobs without the assistance of a medical doctor and won't update the ruins to actually give them the supplies that they need to heal themselves. Also, R.I.P. space exploration (unless you want to return to the station every time you take damage).

Imagine being cloned from an unupgraded cloner without any chemists on hand to make you neurine, except far, far worse (because you can't cure it with one chem) and it happens whenever you take damage. That's what this new system is gonna be like if no one rolls medical doctor (or if the only Medbay staff are antags or dead).

Again, what problem is this supposed to solve here? As far as I can tell, Medbay/our current medical system is fine- doctors have things to do and are treating patients, and the job isn't so complex that newer players are pushed away from it.

How will the passive self-healing of podpeople and alien golems and the active non-self healing of support holoparasites work under this new system?

Do you think that this system will be fun for anyone but doctors?

Accurately sums up my feelings about my PR:

jklhjklhjkljhklhjklhjkl

Quick question, do you guys have an idea of how this will interact with our armor systems? I think this may be a promising idea, but it will need a LOT of design work.

I should also bring up another point: Are we sure that making our medical system (more) complex is a good idea?

Do we want doctors to screw up on a regular basis, forcing people to die or endure a 10-30 minute waiting period because someone other than them (the patient) was incompetent? That sounds like a terrible experience to be subjecting people to.

If you've mastered the medical system and feel that it isn't complex enough for you... just move on to a more complex system/role (like chemistry). The doctor role should be a sort of stepping stone between stuff about as complex as cleaning and stuff about as complex as xenobiology, IMO, which it currently is.

Have you polled/asked doctor/CMO players to see if they want a more complex medical system?

And one last thing: Do we want people to engage in combat less (which they will because of this change)? Won't that just result in more pseudo-extended rounds (the kind in which people call the shuttle because they are BORED) and/or encourage people to stick to more boring, overdone, and "safe" strategies (like plasmaflooding)?

How would simplemobs and borgs be affected by these changes?

Razharas wrote:You got the idea, post em up idea bois

If we do this we'd also want bone damage and organ damage and further complexitiys. You want to turn is unto citadel or best rp station.