Make borg v borg combat less lame

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wesoda25
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Make borg v borg combat less lame

Postby wesoda25 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:14 pm #477620

I currently have a PR open to give certain borg modules flash cooldowns, and if its merged it should help make borg combat a little less gay. That being said, it’d still be pretty lame.

Basically, what if borg flash effect on each other borgs disabled modules, blinded, and gave a slowdown, all for the normal duration of the flash stun. Normal flashes wouldn’t be effected, all it’d do would make borg v borg combat a bit more skill based than flash first to win. Also would make it so that a single traitor borg can’t emag every borg.

Thoughts?



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Re: Make borg v borg combat less lame

Postby NoxVS » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:01 pm #477633

Personally I don’t think the problem is Borg V Borg combat being lame but “X” V Borg combat in general being lame. Combat as a borg is largely based around if the target has flash protection or not. If they don’t have flash protection you just have to hope they don’t have a flash and if they do you hope that you can click them before they click you. Whoever clicks first has won the fight. Combat is entirely based around stunning borgs and being stunned by borgs. There is no other way to fight directly as a borg. I feel the lack of options is the biggest problem

For a cyborg, melee combat is a risky last resort yet it is also the only resort. EMPs and flashes are extremely devastating and an instant death for cyborgs, which normally would be fine with their other strengths but the problem is recently people have been wanting to remove those strengths while keeping the weaknesses that balance it out. The cooldown PR you made does reduce borgs being able to act as security and valid hunt but it also makes it so they are even weaker fighting in melee while keeping the risks engaging in melee had.
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Re: Make borg v borg combat less lame

Postby zxaber » Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:51 pm #477653

Just remove flashes stunning borgs :\/

It's a consequence of flashes being the main anti-borg tool. Making the flashes even more gimmicky than you're already doing is just going to lead to confusion.

Borg v borg combat does suck, but it's generally rare enough that I wouldn't want to add a new layer of complexity over it.
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Re: Make borg v borg combat less lame

Postby datorangebottle » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:45 pm #477673

Like I said on the PR:

Why not just remove the flash at this point? Might as well make them unable to detain assistants, too, since they already can't do shit to 50% of the crew unless they're hacked. Why even have them protect humans if they can't do anything to stop humans from hurting eachother?

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Re: Make borg v borg combat less lame

Postby Kryson » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:53 pm #477688

datorangebottle wrote:Like I said on the PR:

Why not just remove the flash at this point? Might as well make them unable to detain assistants, too, since they already can't do shit to 50% of the crew unless they're hacked. Why even have them protect humans if they can't do anything to stop humans from hurting eachother?


At least this will lower the amount of engineering borg powergamers and encourage people to play the awesome peacekeeper borgs instead. In find that the peacekeepers synthpax injector is very good for breaking up fights.

I do think the flash cooldown PR as proposed right will screw up borg v borg combat. how would a service borg ever win a fight against a peacekeeper for example?

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Re: Make borg v borg combat less lame

Postby wesoda25 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:12 pm #477695

Which is why I want to make borg v borg combat not based entirely around flash first to win. (PS engi borg could still easily beat peacekeeper, flash em and spam welder attack or welderbomb).

I personally thought this would be taken positively, since theres no depth or complexity or literally anything fun in borg v borg combat, I'd actually consider this a borg buff as opposed to nerf but thats just me I guess.

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Re: Make borg v borg combat less lame

Postby gum disease » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:13 pm #477731

No thanks. It's actually quite rare to fight other borgs unless it's ops or if one borg is doing rogue things, and for the latter, usually you're better off getting a robo console built so that borg can be locked down.

I'm uncertain if you play silicon, pretty sure you've said you don't like the role at all - but I feel like it may be a good idea for you to play borg for a bit if you're going to make changes like this.

A service borg can fuck over other borgs with its lighter because it inflicts burn damage. This is noteworthy because it's damage that can't be repaired by borgs. You need to get someone to replace your wires or you have to have the self-repair upgrade (which is very slow).
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Re: Make borg v borg combat less lame

Postby MGP » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:24 pm #477733

The combat for the entire game sucks. Not just borgs.

>Stun
>Cuff
>They die

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Re: Make borg v borg combat less lame

Postby wesoda25 » Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:01 am #477739

Yeah, but borg v borg combat is entirely dependent upon flash combat, try it any other way and you'll end up dying. In game stun combat is varied and theres countermeasures to it, which adds flavor and at least a little bit of fairness to the game (although we are trying to move away from stun combat, aren't we?).

I'm honestly baffled as to why borg players are fine with this, it seems like a really, really shitty combat method which isn't enjoyable for either party involved. Wouldn't my suggestion at least add some amount of flavor and skill to the process of fighting other borgs?

I don't get the reference to service borgs, that doesn't really seem relevant to the suggestion whatosever. Saying to use robo console seems an indirect solution and annoying solution, similar to if I wanted to kill a sec officer but was afraid to, so I just spent 10 minutes making a max cap to get rid of them with, without ever endangering myself.

I question about how rare borg combat really is, ops rounds happen decently often and if you're ever emagged you'll probably be forced to go in for a flash against another borg at one point or another.

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Re: Make borg v borg combat less lame

Postby MGP » Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:19 am #477741

Borgs very infrequently fight one another, it's a non issue. Try focus on improving the combat that happens 99% of the time rather than the 1%.

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Re: Make borg v borg combat less lame

Postby datorangebottle » Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:03 am #477757

Kryson wrote:At least this will lower the amount of engineering borg powergamers and encourage people to play the awesome peacekeeper borgs instead. In find that the peacekeepers synthpax injector is very good for breaking up fights.

I do think the flash cooldown PR as proposed right will screw up borg v borg combat. how would a service borg ever win a fight against a peacekeeper for example?

I mean, there's literally no reason to pick peacekeeper as of now. Almost every other module does its job better. Standard even has zipties.

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Re: Make borg v borg combat less lame

Postby Dr_bee » Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:31 am #477779

datorangebottle wrote:
Kryson wrote:At least this will lower the amount of engineering borg powergamers and encourage people to play the awesome peacekeeper borgs instead. In find that the peacekeepers synthpax injector is very good for breaking up fights.

I do think the flash cooldown PR as proposed right will screw up borg v borg combat. how would a service borg ever win a fight against a peacekeeper for example?

I mean, there's literally no reason to pick peacekeeper as of now. Almost every other module does its job better. Standard even has zipties.


The common excuse coders give is that PK is ment to be a meme, which is a shitty excuse that insults the playerbase and is bad design.

It needs to be changed to be not a fucking meme but try to get oranges to ok it and see how far it gets you.

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Re: Make borg v borg combat less lame

Postby zxaber » Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:00 am #477783

wesoda25 wrote:I'm honestly baffled as to why borg players are fine with this, it seems like a really, really shitty combat method which isn't enjoyable for either party involved. Wouldn't my suggestion at least add some amount of flavor and skill to the process of fighting other borgs?

No one likes inconsistencies. Either all flashes should stun borgs, including other borg flashes, or none should.

wesoda25 wrote:Saying to use robo console seems an indirect solution and annoying solution, similar to if I wanted to kill a sec officer but was afraid to, so I just spent 10 minutes making a max cap to get rid of them with, without ever endangering myself.

I don't think you get the power that the robo console holds. You can lock down any non-op borg, from any distance, on any Z-level. It's a global-distance stun with infinite length and no warning. Or, if you're feeling less than nice, you can just blow the borg up. Again, no warning, no distance limit. If they're emagged, it even destroys their MMI.

wesoda25 wrote:I question about how rare borg combat really is, ops rounds happen decently often and if you're ever emagged you'll probably be forced to go in for a flash against another borg at one point or another.

Generally, emagged borgs want to fly below the radar due to the robo console, and this includes avoiding giving the AI any reason to check if they're synced. Plus, you have no way of knowing if other borgs are emagged too. While borg fights do occasionally happen, they're so rare that it's basically a non-issue.
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Re: Make borg v borg combat less lame

Postby gum disease » Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:25 pm #477813

wesoda25 wrote:Yeah, but borg v borg combat is entirely dependent upon flash combat, try it any other way and you'll end up dying. In game stun combat is varied and theres countermeasures to it, which adds flavor and at least a little bit of fairness to the game (although we are trying to move away from stun combat, aren't we?).

I'm honestly baffled as to why borg players are fine with this, it seems like a really, really shitty combat method which isn't enjoyable for either party involved. Wouldn't my suggestion at least add some amount of flavor and skill to the process of fighting other borgs?

I don't get the reference to service borgs, that doesn't really seem relevant to the suggestion whatosever. Saying to use robo console seems an indirect solution and annoying solution, similar to if I wanted to kill a sec officer but was afraid to, so I just spent 10 minutes making a max cap to get rid of them with, without ever endangering myself.

I question about how rare borg combat really is, ops rounds happen decently often and if you're ever emagged you'll probably be forced to go in for a flash against another borg at one point or another.

I really don't like the proposed changes because it's nice to have some consistency. You're already planning to make some borg flashes recharge faster than others, making them completely different from bog standard flashes that organics will use. I think it would be prudent to see how that PR plays out first if/when it does get merged before fiddling with what borg flashes can actually do to other borgs. Flashes are an integral part of a borg's kit when it comes to self-defense and the defense of others. I don't think it's unreasonable for people who actually play the silicon role to feel a bit apprehensive over all these proposed changes.

Another person in this thread said that your change will make it harder for Service borgs to fight something like a Peacekeeper. While that's true, I think it's still notable that Service borgs have access to burn damage, whereas Peacekeeper borgs do not. While most borgs generally only have weapons that inflict brute damage, not all of them do. While the flash stun is still more powerful, being able to inflict damage that is not easily fixable can still have lasting effects if no one is willing to repair the borg or apply upgrades that will allow them to fix it themselves. That in itself already diversifies combat a little.

Borgs fighting each other outside of op rounds is uncommon from my personal experience (I've got disgusting amount of silicon hours clocked, like over 1,000). If one is emagged or otherwise rogue, the AI (unless it is malf) will sound the alarm and people generally will opt to lock down/blow the borgs. It's way more efficient and reliable than ordering a borg to try and find the rogue one and kill it. You're more likely to be ordered to kill a rogue AI over another borg. There is a reason why dismantling the robotics console/impeding the crew's ability to print off more is practically a requirement during malf rounds. Printing off a robo console board costs like 500 glass. It's an incredibly cheap board to print and is much faster than making a maxcap. You can't equate the two.

Also, why would I want to fight a rogue borg anyway? If they're an emagged engiborg or mining borg, they'll have a stun arm which does exactly the same thing as a flash (except it doesn't burn out). As least with the flash stun, it made fights against them a little bit more balanced. Hell, isn't your PR'd change supposed to reduce the prevalence of silicons hunting for valids? Why are you baffled that valid hunting between silicons is uncommon even with the current state of borg flashes?
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Re: Make borg v borg combat less lame

Postby Anonmare » Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:26 pm #478315

That and malf AIs need their borgs to have stuns if they want to even actually try and accomplish the robot army objective, the autoborger will not borg dead bodies and its cooldown takes way too long to use critical condition as a pesudo-stun (assuming they don't succumb before then). Sure you could use emagged borgs but that requires leaving the robo console intact - a massive weakpoint that anyone with robotics access can use to instantly kill every one of your borgs at zero risk from anywhere on the z-level because the autoborger doesn't make emagged borgs.

And no borg will ever want to get into melee combat without a stun. Welding tools are common as muck and leave permanent, irreparable damage, flashes are inescapable chainstuns and they're slower than uninjured humans, meaning they have the disadvantage from the outset. When I'm a borg made rogue but not emagged, I never even TRY to kill others in melee until I've set the station on fire. because then at least the circumstances are in my favour.
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Re: Make borg v borg combat less lame

Postby datorangebottle » Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:57 am #479122

Anonmare wrote:the autoborger will not borg dead bodies

I thought it just had a cooldown period.

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Re: Make borg v borg combat less lame

Postby NoxVS » Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:15 am #479139

datorangebottle wrote:
Anonmare wrote:the autoborger will not borg dead bodies

I thought it just had a cooldown period.

It both has a cooldown until you can use it again and will not work on dead bodies
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