Space Valhalla

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Space Valhalla

Postby Timbrewolf » Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:34 am #48517

This is an idea I've had for awhile. Something for ghosts to do to keep from being bored after death that'll also let people blow off steam inbetween the normal life/death cycle of an average round.

Some otherwise inaccessible z-level that's just a bigass colliseum ghosts can periodically respawn onto as a big ongoing deathmatch for dead people to beat the shit out of eachother, practice being robust, and vent the aggression that otherwise only gets vented during traitor rounds, badmin events, and that 90 second window after the shuttle docks at centcom.

Personally, I would run constant thunderdome events for ghosts if there was a simpler method for making it happen. As is, spawning a bunch of mobs, giving them gear, and getting volunteers into them, then working the controls, takes 10x as much time and effort as the resulting 2 minute brawl occupies.

If not a whole production of an area and all this new shit, please at least give us a button that pings all the ghosts like "hey wanna go fight?" and then sorts them into two teams with jumpsuits.

I wouldn't be surprised if I'm not the first person to suggest this, but I haven't ever heard anyone say so. Thunderdome is potentially really awesome but underused because it just takes so much damn work to sort out making two even teams and getting them ready to go. 10-15 minutes of chasing ghosts around, spawning items, making sure people aren't being jerks already (taking two weapons and not letting someone else have any, for example) and then saying GO just for a 90 second murder spree fuckin' sucks.
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby Timbrewolf » Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:43 am #48520

One of the big reasons I think this would benefit the station/community is how it would provide a better avenue for people to blow off steam and practice fighting eachother.

I mean face it. The more robust players are, on average, people who disregarded the rules to go around just beating the shit out of others until they were satisfied they knew what they were doing. The kinds of players who ran around punching random people until they could goad someone into a fistfight.

It's much harder for someone who is actually playing the game and conducting themselves the way we expect them to "git gud". There just aren't that many opportunities to practice the fine art of combing someone's hair with a fire extinguisher. Outside of nervous early traitor rounds and defending yourself from people who are trying to kill you first there's just nothing there.

On the whole I think people would be a lot less aggressive towards eachother on the station if they had an outlet for that violence, and also if there was this idea that the average person isn't so easily robusted.
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby dezzmont » Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:48 am #48522

Idea has come up over and over. Problem is combat is not fundamentally very interesting for many people.

I loved the idea of an ultra-robust "spacehell" station where you constantly respawn if you die.

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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby Timbrewolf » Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:59 am #48527

If it's not fun for you don't do it? Call us crazy but for a lot of us getting into fights is pretty satisfying.

We have drones now for people who want to come back as a mechanical rat that can fix stuff and steal hats.

If combat sucks and people don't want to randomly beat the shit out of eachother explain to me what happens at the end of every round, please.
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby Wyzack » Sat Dec 06, 2014 2:18 am #48531

This sounds pretty fun, fuckin fund it
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby leibniz » Sat Dec 06, 2014 2:45 am #48535

This always gets denied by the coders.
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby Timbrewolf » Sat Dec 06, 2014 2:55 am #48540

Asking for a whole new area and all that is a ton of work, definitely. I understand full well that's pretty ridiculous.

But something that just queries all the ghosts like the Create Antagonists -> Nuke Ops function, except "Would you like to be considered for a Thunderdome brawl?" and then sorts like up to 10 people into two teams of five and spawns them in jumpsuits and shoes in their respective sides of the 'dome would be great.

I could then just spawn a bunch of hand weapons in a heap in both sides, open the doors, and let 'em go nuts. The victor gets to relax in the bleachers and then we do it again.
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby dezzmont » Sat Dec 06, 2014 3:10 am #48545

It may be more interesting if it was less like thunderdome and more like... I dunno... Battle Royale or Hunger Games.

A small mockup station filled places you can loot weapons or tools that spawn randomly so that it isn't just a blob of people shooting at another blob of people. Maybe even have traps, mobs, and places where players can set traps so it is interesting. Nothing super complex, mostly just hallways and lockers, some low light maint like areas and some hallways that reset every once and a while.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of phasing out death, but the problem with thunderdome is that it is really just clickspam when its a mass of people.

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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby Cipher3 » Sat Dec 06, 2014 3:56 am #48555

dezzmont wrote:It may be more interesting if it was less like thunderdome and more like... I dunno... Battle Royale or Hunger Games.

A small mockup station filled places you can loot weapons or tools that spawn randomly so that it isn't just a blob of people shooting at another blob of people. Maybe even have traps, mobs, and places where players can set traps so it is interesting. Nothing super complex, mostly just hallways and lockers, some low light maint like areas and some hallways that reset every once and a while.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of phasing out death, but the problem with thunderdome is that it is really just clickspam when its a mass of people.

That would be kinda cool, however it would also require so much effort you'd really just need to find a coder who wants to do it and let them take over the project.
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby cedarbridge » Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:03 am #48558

dezzmont wrote:the problem with ss13 combat is that it is really just clickspam when its a mass of people.

Fixed that for you.

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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby Timbrewolf » Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:21 am #48561

dezzmont wrote:It may be more interesting if it was less like thunderdome and more like... I dunno... Battle Royale or Hunger Games.

A small mockup station filled places you can loot weapons or tools that spawn randomly so that it isn't just a blob of people shooting at another blob of people. Maybe even have traps, mobs, and places where players can set traps so it is interesting. Nothing super complex, mostly just hallways and lockers, some low light maint like areas and some hallways that reset every once and a while.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of phasing out death, but the problem with thunderdome is that it is really just clickspam when its a mass of people.


This is the exact opposite of what I'm talking about. This is another mini round within a round that you can die out of. I just want a mechanic where I can send people to go beat the shit out eachother in the stress box over and over until they're satisfied.

I don't want a new round type or special badmin event that overshadows the rest of the game. An easy or convenient way to allow players to smash eachother's faces without any consequences.

There's no need to dress it up with plot or try to make anything more significant out of it than Spessmens Fight Club.

AS IS we have the real estate to do it, but the setup required to make it happen is a pain in the ass. Thunderdome would get a fuckton more use and I think a lot of people would be a lot happier and more sedate if it was just a little easier to grab people and plunk them down in it.
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby Spacezenegger » Sat Dec 06, 2014 5:05 am #48575

We should not encourage people to die. I wouldn't mind a button admins could press every once in awhile that makes it an automatic thunderdome for ghosts, as long as it wasn't constantly pressed. You will end up getting people who get killed on purpose just to join a thunderdome event which in turns ruins the main game.

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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby ExplosiveCrate » Sat Dec 06, 2014 5:09 am #48576

Because people didn't already commit suicide because they were bored of the main game
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby dezzmont » Sat Dec 06, 2014 5:41 am #48580

An0n3 wrote:
dezzmont wrote:It may be more interesting if it was less like thunderdome and more like... I dunno... Battle Royale or Hunger Games.

A small mockup station filled places you can loot weapons or tools that spawn randomly so that it isn't just a blob of people shooting at another blob of people. Maybe even have traps, mobs, and places where players can set traps so it is interesting. Nothing super complex, mostly just hallways and lockers, some low light maint like areas and some hallways that reset every once and a while.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of phasing out death, but the problem with thunderdome is that it is really just clickspam when its a mass of people.


This is the exact opposite of what I'm talking about. This is another mini round within a round that you can die out of. I just want a mechanic where I can send people to go beat the shit out eachother in the stress box over and over until they're satisfied.

I don't want a new round type or special badmin event that overshadows the rest of the game. An easy or convenient way to allow players to smash eachother's faces without any consequences.

There's no need to dress it up with plot or try to make anything more significant out of it than Spessmens Fight Club.

AS IS we have the real estate to do it, but the setup required to make it happen is a pain in the ass. Thunderdome would get a fuckton more use and I think a lot of people would be a lot happier and more sedate if it was just a little easier to grab people and plunk them down in it.


Well the idea I thought would it would just be some hallways and you would respawn. Basically fighting with less just standing in a room clicking. Enough to keep what makes fighting in SS13 interesting, the ambushes and bushwacking and chases, stuff that people who you said like to toe the line to get into fights are actually looking for. The idea of flat thunderdome was discarded when it was first brought up because people realized thunderdome is, at its core, not fun as its own thing when everyone is tossed in there. Imagine playing counter strike in a small square room with 15 people in a free for all and you get thunderdome rounds. Free for all deathmatches work on maps designed to channel people, the novelty of a room cluster fuck lasts for about 2 rounds.

There are a lot of questions that the fightclub would raise too. How does it not devolve into mini rounds in of itself? Can you not die? Well that just sounds boring as it becomes an exercise in clicking on immobile bodies. Do you instantly respawn nearby? Well its just an endless mosh pit.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of doing anything to make death less of an OOC punishment for an IC event. The problem is the mindset that "we can't make after death better than the game" is silly because by its nature it limits you to stuff that is generally worse than alt tabbing to browse youtube. Something needs to be there emulating the experience players came for in some way, or else there is no real point in trying to nerf death besides as a novelty. Also, as you pointed out, a combat sim in part would deliberately draw people who are interested in violence out of the round, and if they suicided round start they most likley would need to wait a while for anyone to show up. The issue self corrects if no simple mobs are at valhalla or thunderdome or whatever: The more people dying, the more interestinf valhalla gets but the more interesting the station gets as well.

cedarbridge wrote:
dezzmont wrote:the problem with ss13 combat is that it is really just clickspam when its a mass of people.

Thanks, but the point is that automating thunderdome to have a bunch of people just shooting at each other in it is really not interesting and would do so little to hold attention.
Fixed that for you.


Cipher3 wrote:
dezzmont wrote:It may be more interesting if it was less like thunderdome and more like... I dunno... Battle Royale or Hunger Games.

A small mockup station filled places you can loot weapons or tools that spawn randomly so that it isn't just a blob of people shooting at another blob of people. Maybe even have traps, mobs, and places where players can set traps so it is interesting. Nothing super complex, mostly just hallways and lockers, some low light maint like areas and some hallways that reset every once and a while.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of phasing out death, but the problem with thunderdome is that it is really just clickspam when its a mass of people.

That would be kinda cool, however it would also require so much effort you'd really just need to find a coder who wants to do it and let them take over the project.


Depends on how intense you want to go. It isn't that hard to just make a machine that spawns something on a recharging timer and making a medium sized maze is an extremely easy job for any mapper, so at bare minimum you have asymmetrical gear based on location and the ability to break vision with people you are fighting, which is what you need to make fights remotely interesting.

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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby Timbrewolf » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:03 pm #48649

Spacezenegger wrote:We should not encourage people to die. I wouldn't mind a button admins could press every once in awhile that makes it an automatic thunderdome for ghosts, as long as it wasn't constantly pressed. You will end up getting people who get killed on purpose just to join a thunderdome event which in turns ruins the main game.


It shouldn't announce anything to the crew or station. I wouldn't want people rushing to monitors constantly to watch this stuff.

If people wanted to thunderdome 24/7 they would hopefully just observe at roundstart. Maybe we would eventually have to come up with some kind of process to handle people who only join the server to roll for antag and then go to thunderdome if they dont get it.
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby Timbrewolf » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:08 pm #48650

dezzmont wrote:stuff that people who you said like to toe the line to get into fights are actually looking for.


Yeah the guy standing in fitness screaming over the radio "SOMEONE COME FIGHT ME" is looking for an ambush.
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Either people would die and periodically be able to respawn themselves in a new body into the middle of a constantly waged deathmatch or admins could just keep pushing the button that plunks a bunch of ghosts down in thunderdome when a scrum ends.

Putting too much thought or gameplay into it beyond "beat the shit out of eachother, right here right now" and it becomes something that should be its own game mode, or run on its own server somewhere else.
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby dezzmont » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:51 pm #48658

How detailed is too detailed? The fitness guy is a pretty niche market to be designing the afterlife for after all. You could go really big and create a deathmatch mode for SS13, which we shouldn't, but something slightly more complex than a box also would work.

Would you be opposed to a plus shape hallway with a larger room in the center, which are connected by open access maintenance tunnels at the end and halfway through for example? About 2.5 screens wide or so. That alone would make the arena a lot more interesting while still keeping it a brawl.

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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:35 pm #48696

Are the big issues of this that it would 1. give people a reason to die other than observe, so in a sense encourage death and 2. respawning as a different mob makes getting cloned in your original body impossible, meaning people that are dead get taken out of the round more permanently?

I mean I guess you could code around the second point and this is a feature I would really love, but there are valid points against this since at least one person will be encouraged to die and that means at least one player out of the round that would've played otherwise.
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby Saegrimr » Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:41 pm #48697

PKPenguin321 wrote:Are the big issues of this that it would 1. give people a reason to die other than observe, so in a sense encourage death and 2. respawning as a different mob makes getting cloned in your original body impossible, meaning people that are dead get taken out of the round more permanently?


1. No more than drones already do, and if its people who just want to punch other people I don't really see any harm in them spacing themselves at roundstart rather than greytiding.
2. Maybe some kind of examine note like with catatonics when a dead player no longer has a ghost attached to it, or is that what the "and his soul has departed" message is? I never could figure out what that was supposed to mean since i've cloned people like that before.
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby oranges » Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:52 pm #48699

Making a second game inside a game seems counterproductive, why not have a third server with specialised map, code and gametype. People could connect there when they are dead on sybil

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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby dezzmont » Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:16 am #48701

It isn't counter productive. It is part of game design to try to minimize senseless downtime. Death is not, in most videogames, meant to be a boring punishment where you don't get to have fun. Games where death takes you out of the action entirely generally either boot you out to select a new game/server to try or have short death downtime. SS13 rounds can go on for 30 minutes, meaning that people need to ration time for it. Someone getting taken out early basically is stuck doing nothing.

Think about PAIs and Drones. People do not exactly trip over themselves to play them and PAIs are so unattractive that they don't even see use. 3-4 people tried to be pAIs when they came out and when they realized it was worse than ghosting they stopped. And mice were just a joke.

Frankly I think the idea of "if death is fun people will kill themselves" is stupidly overblown and hyperbolic. We have existing life after death options that are unfun by design and that are fun by design. I haven't seen anyone become a pAI in a year, and while I know drones are a thing I haven't seen anyone make them. Fun after death options like borgification take 1-2 players out of a round on a given round, there isn't an epidemic of people going borg, even though in most ways being a borg is outright better than being a person. Why do we assume that if anything remotely interesting is possible to do after death that players will swarm it? Obviously everything can't be borging, because they would have too much impact on a round and thus run counter the entropy that death causes, but borgs prove beyond a doubt that the game is capable of having alternate playstyles that don't destroy round pops.

You will of course see people suicide early on to test a new after death option when it first comes out. I hope that surprises no one, no matter how deliberately bad you make it. But deliberately trying to make sure players can't enjoy themselves is really foolish as well. If the goal is to make staying in the window after dying interesting, then whatever happens after death needs to be substantive in some way. You have two options: Low impact round play or an aftergame. Drones are a really good example of an after death mechanic actually because they allow a player to continue to participate without actually seriously affecting the round. They can patch things up, they can make new rooms, but they can't do anything that would dramatically affect the action. They don't see play because they require science to make them ahead of time which is lame, but their design is solid. pAIs suck because you don't have anything substantive to do. You are a glorified door hacking device and chat bot and the intent of letting you interact with the round via roleplay is a pretty big failure.

And more to the point, there are already a bunch of mechanics that have design flaws that segment the server population. Virologists, scientists, geneticists, miners, all are designed to never leave their work area and have minimal interaction with the station as a whole. To some extent chefs, bartenders, wardens, and chemists also are stationary and act more like objects than people. I am not saying we should leave these things like they are and go ahead with making a super amazing after death experience better than the original game, but saying the game as of right now doesn't segment the population is absurd.

I ask again, what is the cut off limit for interest after round? Would a small arena really be so attractive compared to thunderdome that people would leave en mass for it? I doubt anyone would seriously think so, I think people are still just stuck in the mindset that death should be a punishment rather than a mechanic. But we know death as a punishment isn't even accurate because people still fight for their lives vs things like aliens, rev, or cult despite the fact that failure versus them very often means converting into a new alternate state of being rather than ending the round.
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby Saegrimr » Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:26 am #48706

pAIs are kind of broken currently, have been for a little while. People really that eager usually just observe at roundstart. At least I fucking hope they do and don't waste job slots.
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby dezzmont » Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:29 am #48707

Saegrimr wrote:pAIs are kind of broken currently, have been for a little while. People really that eager usually just observe at roundstart. At least I fucking hope they do and don't waste job slots.

Not only have I not seen anyone choose to be a pAI when I turn one on, I never see people taking the free ones that just are sitting about. They are that uninteresting and boring.

Lets look at it from a design perspective. I propose an exercise. Try answering the following:

What is death meant to accomplish for both the round and players?
What effects does it currently have for both the round and players?
What are aspects we want to remove from it?
What is the goal for the proposed change on death?

As is I think most people would be in agreement that regardless of how you answer the other 3 questions, death's effect on the player is profoundly frustrating and results in a near complete end of their experience in the current round, which could go on from anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour. While this may get them to try to avoid death, it is possibly the worst incentive possible, and we know that people will attempt to avoid death even when the punishment incentive is not there.
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby MMMiracles » Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:30 am #48708

I like the idea of the thunderdome consoles in the bar becoming of active use out of admin fun, seeing how it'd give those permanently out of the round some fun to do while the round goes on. The only problem would be people killing themselves just to go into the thunderdome rampage, but odds are after the hype of "NEW CONTENT" dies out like with every other update that adds something to the game, it'd be fine to have automated.

Hell, add some sort of ghost-bar for people to spawn in as ghosts. Infinite booze and idiot-proof structure to prevent people from tearing shit up too much. Add some TVs so they can watch the station spiral into madness while talking over a couple drinks.

Would be 10x cooler if the ghost feature from places like paradise/bay are ported where your ghost is the transparent version of what your character looked like when you died to add effect.
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby dezzmont » Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:34 am #48710

MMMiracles wrote:I like the idea of the thunderdome consoles in the bar becoming of active use out of admin fun, seeing how it'd give those permanently out of the round some fun to do while the round goes on. The only problem would be people killing themselves just to go into the thunderdome rampage, but odds are after the hype of "NEW CONTENT" dies out like with every other update that adds something to the game, it'd be fine to have automated.

Hell, add some sort of ghost-bar for people to spawn in as ghosts. Infinite booze and idiot-proof structure to prevent people from tearing shit up too much. Add some TVs so they can watch the station spiral into madness while talking over a couple drinks.

Would be 10x cooler if the ghost feature from places like paradise/bay are ported where your ghost is the transparent version of what your character looked like when you died to add effect.

That would be cool. It would definitely address the fact that the thunderdome's novelty wears off after about 5 minutes, and would just add a layer to deadchat that makes it feel more like something you are participating in rather than the time out box. A 2 screen wide station that is essentially a bar and boxing ring would hardly draw people away from the station as well.

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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby miggles » Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:22 am #48774

dezz youre literally the only person arguing that thunderdome fighting is boring, you can stop now

also, the argument that people would kill themselves to do dead people stuff is wrong for the reasons saegrimr already said. people who want to be drones or just kill themselves because they're bored already do that, this would just be another thing they could do afterwards. if someone is just going to kill themselves to go to Ghost Fight Club, they probably werent going to contribute anything meaningful to the round anyway.
ive always been a huge proponent of this idea because being dead is seriously really boring, and sometimes dying for the wrong reasons can be really frustrating and make me not want to play anymore. when that happens i always wish i could be an antag like a wizard or a ninja and just kill people to let off steam.
the space bar idea is equally cool, since it makes deadchat more personal and gives a mindless sort of semi-gameplay for people that doesn't really require any effort. you can just sit back, pretend to drink some beer in a video game, and talk to people, or watch cameras, or whatever. its another form of catharsis that could make dying a lot less shitty.
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby Steelpoint » Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:45 am #48797

Mapping a "afterlife" won't be extremely hard, though new sprites might work well (more heaven/hell influence, maybe Greek/Roman mythology?).

Being able to do something after dying would be great. Even a continually respawning "team deathmatch/deathmatch" arena would let people who've died take out their frustration on other people in a fun environment. I seriously wonder how many people will be more rational after being killed by McMurderboner if they can take out their frustration in a death match arena.

A arena with rotating themes and rules would be pretty cool. One round could be a melee combat round, another could be a World War 1 themed round, or a zero-gravity lasergun round onboard a blown up ship.
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby Spacezenegger » Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:52 pm #48807

miggles wrote:dezz youre literally the only person arguing that thunderdome fighting is boring, you can stop now

also, the argument that people would kill themselves to do dead people stuff is wrong for the reasons saegrimr already said. people who want to be drones or just kill themselves because they're bored already do that, this would just be another thing they could do afterwards. if someone is just going to kill themselves to go to Ghost Fight Club, they probably werent going to contribute anything meaningful to the round anyway.
ive always been a huge proponent of this idea because being dead is seriously really boring, and sometimes dying for the wrong reasons can be really frustrating and make me not want to play anymore. when that happens i always wish i could be an antag like a wizard or a ninja and just kill people to let off steam.
the space bar idea is equally cool, since it makes deadchat more personal and gives a mindless sort of semi-gameplay for people that doesn't really require any effort. you can just sit back, pretend to drink some beer in a video game, and talk to people, or watch cameras, or whatever. its another form of catharsis that could make dying a lot less shitty.

Killing themselves because they're bored or to play as a drone isn't the same as killing themselves so they can murderboner in thunderdome. As for not contributing to the round, players should not even be tempted to want to die unless they're bored/don't want to play anymore especially if they're taking up job slots other than assistant.

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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby Wyzack » Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:56 pm #48813

Wait, why can't we use the actual thunderdome for this? Don't the entertainment monitors already observe the thunderdome?
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby JStheguy » Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:04 pm #48854

Because the thunder-dome is really dull and boring. Half the !!fun!! of spessmans combat is using the environment to your advantage, something that can't be done in what is literally an empty square.

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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby Fragnostic » Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:25 pm #48913

A small map that can cycle between several themes easily.
Silly, but fun suggestions that could be fun:
Spess Hunger Games: futuristic free-for-all; moving off platform before time is up gibs you
Russian Warfare; each team is given a rifle(Mosin-Nagant?) that goes to one player, everyone gets ammo and a knife
Zombie Survival: all players pitted against waves of zombies; guns and barricades provided
50 shades of greytide: map looks like a station gone to shit, just greytide with toolbox and bottles, good ol scrap
World War 1 theme(as suggested)
Predators and Prey: rednecks with shotguns and psitolshunt for other people in chicken costumes with blades and shields
Fire fight: plasma fire rages on; fire suited team with water grenades and extinguishers combat fire to save station
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby Wyzack » Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:47 pm #48917

I think the point Anon3 was making was that it shouldnt be some super complicated deathmatch mode. Just a moshpit to blow off steam when you have died. the thunderdome fits this role nicely, and badmin magic could alter the evironment to add extra shit as they see fot
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby dezzmont » Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:39 am #48923

The issue is that An0n3 is basing his statement on the assumption that:

A: Thunderdrome is significantly more interesting than cookie clicker.
and
B: That anything remotely interesting would lead to mass suicide.

The current after death options are all really lackluster because of this continuing attitude that players who die should not be allowed to have fun and that the only way to discourage death is to essentially kick the player out of the server for 15-45 minutes depending on remaining round length. The problem I and some others take with this attitude is that we know that players do not generally do this when presented with any other equivalent option. The evidence we have from typical interaction with conversion enemies and borgs shows this as a hyperbolic argument.

And making something remotely more interesting than thunderdome isn't making a super complicated deathmatch mode. What most people seem to want is something similar to thunderdome but with enough complexity to hold one's attention for more than a few minutes. The novelty wears off after 30 minutes of one event, let alone 15 minutes after every couple of rounds where you die.

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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby Reimoo » Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:56 am #48945

I would argue that the people suiciding to get into the thunderdome wouldn't have contributed much to the round anyway. Besides, we're facing population issues, wouldn't hurt to have the more violent members of the community willingly exclude themselves from the round just to get their murderboner fix.

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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby miggles » Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:13 am #48947

dezzmont wrote:The issue is that An0n3 is basing his statement on the assumption that:

A: Thunderdrome is significantly more interesting than cookie clicker.
and
B: That anything remotely interesting would lead to mass suicide.

The current after death options are all really lackluster because of this continuing attitude that players who die should not be allowed to have fun and that the only way to discourage death is to essentially kick the player out of the server for 15-45 minutes depending on remaining round length. The problem I and some others take with this attitude is that we know that players do not generally do this when presented with any other equivalent option. The evidence we have from typical interaction with conversion enemies and borgs shows this as a hyperbolic argument.

And making something remotely more interesting than thunderdome isn't making a super complicated deathmatch mode. What most people seem to want is something similar to thunderdome but with enough complexity to hold one's attention for more than a few minutes. The novelty wears off after 30 minutes of one event, let alone 15 minutes after every couple of rounds where you die.

this is your opinion. as has been stated in the thread by myself and others, not everyone holds this opinion. please understand that before you make that same argument again.
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby Timbrewolf » Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:08 am #48967

Wyzack wrote:Wait, why can't we use the actual thunderdome for this? Don't the entertainment monitors already observe the thunderdome?



THUNDERDOME IS JUST A PLACE

The problem is the process you have to go through to actually get some people into it and set them up to fight takes way too damn long. The work of making Thunderdome actually THUNDERDOME is too cumbersome for what you get in return. The work:reward of it is awful.

I said in the OP (or maybe second post) if we could just have a button that grabs a bunch of ghosts and spawns them as randomly named humans in two teams on thunderdome the whole problem would be solved. I could just push button, spawn weapons, open doors.

People who want to just murder the crap out of eachother off the station can hang around and have some fun as ghosts while the round winds down. People who don't want that, and just want to observe or wait to be cloned or whatever else can do that.

When finals and shit are over and I have some free time I'm willing to bet I could just hijack the code used for the "Create Antags" function and make a "Spawn Thunderdome combatants" if nobody else wants to do it first.

miggles wrote:this is your opinion. as has been stated in the thread by myself and others, not everyone holds this opinion. please understand that before you make that same argument again.


Responding to him only encourages him. Notice how nobody else does? When he runs wildly off topic like this just let him go.
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby srifenbyxp » Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:20 pm #49060

Wouldnt the lesser people abuse this and purposely kill themelves just to get into a all you can murder buffet? Forgive me if I missed anything really I just skimmed over most of the wall of text.
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby Wyzack » Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:25 pm #49065

I dont think so. Seeing as it functions by admin button, they could always just not let you in/spawn you there as a mouse or crab if it seems like you are being shitty.
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby Zsword » Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:40 pm #49066

... I personally know I wouldn't mind a place where I could actually practice some self defense/combat skills, cause I know I'm, really bad at that.

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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby Stickymayhem » Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:54 pm #49068

I want the ghost bar so I can walk in and physically recruit ghosts for shit.

I wasn't convinced at first but a way to give ghosts a little bit of interaction with each other sounds fun.
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby dezzmont » Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:36 pm #49078

Stickymayhem wrote:I want the ghost bar so I can walk in and physically recruit ghosts for shit.

I wasn't convinced at first but a way to give ghosts a little bit of interaction with each other sounds fun.

While a little arena sounds harmless, and I still want to push for that, the idea of a ghost bar sounds not just completely harmless, but it could get people more used to roleplay. Every 'diversion' already exists on the station and is inferior to the station's attractions if you just suicide to go there with one or two people.

If there is a downside, I don't really see one. Maybe making it harder to revive would require a code work around? And it would work deadchat and observing into fluff by using bar TVs which may be weird. If anyone has anything damning about this idea I would love to hear it.

srifenbyxp wrote:Wouldnt the lesser people abuse this and purposely kill themelves just to get into a all you can murder buffet? Forgive me if I missed anything really I just skimmed over most of the wall of text.


We don't know for sure this would happen. Even if it does not everyone is sold on the idea of it being purely negative, as while repeatedly venting aggression does cause you to become more aggressive it also would reduce the mystique and allure of violence in some ways.

It turns the optimal way to gun for a fight from being a shitlord to other players towards literally killing yourself so you can be a violent jerk. It is only a problem if a large part of the player-base decides to do it consistently, rather than it being something 1-2 people a round consistently do and others maybe do after a particularly shitty round. If that happens we get a better server, but if people mass suicide for this even after the inevitable initial "Ooo... shiny..." phase then it would be extremely problematic.

miggles wrote:this is your opinion. as has been stated in the thread by myself and others, not everyone holds this opinion. please understand that before you make that same argument again.


Fiiiine.

Some players find Thunderdome as boring as tar and we should try to mix it up if we can, making it as interesting as possible without drawing players. It behooves us to find this point to maximize the good this update does.

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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby Timbrewolf » Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:02 pm #49105

srifenbyxp wrote:Wouldnt the lesser people abuse this and purposely kill themelves just to get into a all you can murder buffet? Forgive me if I missed anything really I just skimmed over most of the wall of text.


That's why I wouldn't want this to be too fleshed out. It has to be just dumb slugfest stuff. Anything too involved or RP intensive and you're going to have people joining the game just to roll antag, not get it, then suicide immediately to try out some other weird game-modes.

Zsword wrote:... I personally know I wouldn't mind a place where I could actually practice some self defense/combat skills, cause I know I'm, really bad at that.


There is currently a setting for the holodeck that lets you spawn fake armor and eswords and beat the shit out of eachother with them. If you can find a friend you two can go nuts practicing with that ICly.

Stickymayhem wrote:I want the ghost bar so I can walk in and physically recruit ghosts for shit.

I wasn't convinced at first but a way to give ghosts a little bit of interaction with each other sounds fun.


There's already the centcom bar. Ghosts can go there and hang out, though they can't touch anything.

>implying anyone ever uses it or hangs around anywhere as a ghost but to follow the person who killed them hoping for revenge
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby Scones » Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:04 pm #49136

An0n3 wrote:[
There is currently a setting for the holodeck that lets you spawn fake armor and eswords and beat the shit out of each other with them. If you can find a friend you two can go nuts practicing with that ICly.


I always forget about this. The holodeck doesn't see nearly as much use as it should, considering the variety of modes it has.

Seriously, the only time I see it used is to dump bodies or activate the burn simulation.
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby youngbuckliontiger » Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:18 pm #49139

Just have an autospawner where your ghost click on that thing, you turn into a person. Just like when ghosts click on narsie, they become a harverster. So if there are no admins on, we can still have an afterlife.
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby SirMalcolm » Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:53 pm #50325

An0n3 wrote:THUNDERDOME IS JUST A PLACE

The problem is the process you have to go through to actually get some people into it and set them up to fight takes way too damn long. The work of making Thunderdome actually THUNDERDOME is too cumbersome for what you get in return. The work:reward of it is awful.

I said in the OP (or maybe second post) if we could just have a button that grabs a bunch of ghosts and spawns them as randomly named humans in two teams on thunderdome the whole problem would be solved. I could just push button, spawn weapons, open doors.

If something like this was added couldn't it work similar to how death squad is chosen, i.e people have the option to put their name in if they want to.

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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby soulgamer » Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:04 am #50390

I love the idea of a bar/thunderdome thing. It would give the dead something to do and be some fun RP if given a chance.

Also name the bar "The Lifes End Pub"

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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby Balut » Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:21 pm #51971

TL;DR because it's an ancient idea

Make the battleground the arena that you can see on the bar TVs. That way there'll actually be something on.
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby Drynwyn » Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:48 am #52352

I'm all in favor of this, however:

An issue traditionally brought up is that this will risk increasing lag due to simulating another large area.
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Re: Space Valhalla

Postby OrbisA » Sun Dec 21, 2014 3:32 pm #52571

as long as we can simulate somehow the place not having air (ie: having the ghost body not breathing, inmune to pressure and the area void of air), the lag would be reduced quite a bit.

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