Nerf Lexorin

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Nerf Lexorin

Postby Waseemq1235 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:28 pm #500233

Simply, Lexorin is the bane of any goddamn antag, hell, even nonantags.
If I get a dollar for every wizard that dies to a single syringe of lexorin, I'd be a millionaire.
Seriously though, 15 units of that is enough to knock you out for a really long time, and nothing is worse than being knocked out by oxyloss.
Today, I was a nuclear operative, armed to the teeth, and all I needed to die was a single syringe of lexorin, it was enough to knock me out for good, I had to inject myself with a heckload of combat nanites, PLUS activate my adrenal implant. That didn't save me, I got knocked out for a good deal of time, woke up again, and got shot once again with lexorin, gg.
Lexorin is just WAY too easy to make, while it can be the bane of any antag, knocking out within 1 minute, hell, maybe even 30 seconds, chemistry can make that stuff roundstart. It's literally the most overused/overpowered chem out there.



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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby bobbahbrown » Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:29 pm #500234

Waseemq1235 wrote:Simply, Lexorin is the bane of any goddamn antag, hell, even nonantags.
If I get a dollar for every wizard that dies to a single syringe of lexorin, I'd be a millionaire.
Seriously though, 15 units of that is enough to knock you out for a really long time, and nothing is worse than being knocked out by oxyloss.
Today, I was a nuclear operative, armed to the teeth, and all I needed to die was a single syringe of lexorin, it was enough to knock me out for good, I had to inject myself with a heckload of combat nanites, PLUS activate my adrenal implant. That didn't save me, I got knocked out for a good deal of time, woke up again, and got shot once again with lexorin, gg.
Lexorin is just WAY too easy to make, while it can be the bane of any antag, knocking out within 1 minute, hell, maybe even 30 seconds, chemistry can make that stuff roundstart. It's literally the most overused/overpowered chem out there.


wear something that blocks syringes
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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby knacker48 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:42 pm #500236

bobbahbrown wrote:
Waseemq1235 wrote:Simply, Lexorin is the bane of any goddamn antag, hell, even nonantags.
If I get a dollar for every wizard that dies to a single syringe of lexorin, I'd be a millionaire.
Seriously though, 15 units of that is enough to knock you out for a really long time, and nothing is worse than being knocked out by oxyloss.
Today, I was a nuclear operative, armed to the teeth, and all I needed to die was a single syringe of lexorin, it was enough to knock me out for good, I had to inject myself with a heckload of combat nanites, PLUS activate my adrenal implant. That didn't save me, I got knocked out for a good deal of time, woke up again, and got shot once again with lexorin, gg.
Lexorin is just WAY too easy to make, while it can be the bane of any antag, knocking out within 1 minute, hell, maybe even 30 seconds, chemistry can make that stuff roundstart. It's literally the most overused/overpowered chem out there.


wear something that blocks syringes

Don't piercing syringes get around that?

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby Waseemq1235 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:44 pm #500237

bobbahbrown wrote:
Waseemq1235 wrote:Simply, Lexorin is the bane of any goddamn antag, hell, even nonantags.
If I get a dollar for every wizard that dies to a single syringe of lexorin, I'd be a millionaire.
Seriously though, 15 units of that is enough to knock you out for a really long time, and nothing is worse than being knocked out by oxyloss.
Today, I was a nuclear operative, armed to the teeth, and all I needed to die was a single syringe of lexorin, it was enough to knock me out for good, I had to inject myself with a heckload of combat nanites, PLUS activate my adrenal implant. That didn't save me, I got knocked out for a good deal of time, woke up again, and got shot once again with lexorin, gg.
Lexorin is just WAY too easy to make, while it can be the bane of any antag, knocking out within 1 minute, hell, maybe even 30 seconds, chemistry can make that stuff roundstart. It's literally the most overused/overpowered chem out there.


wear something that blocks syringes


Exactly, I got fucked by piercing syringes while in an elite hardsuit

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:13 pm #500264

epipen and perf counters it
if there was no lexorin then you would have died to other chem mixes so just get good and dodge

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby skoglol » Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:08 pm #500273

Just use a shield, they block syringes. You had the TC for one, I checked when I stole the uplink.

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby Xeroxemnas » Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:33 pm #500282

>get shot
>die
>WAAAAAAAAAAAAH NERF

Git gud and shoot first, babyboy.

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby Waseemq1235 » Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:04 am #500303

Xeroxemnas wrote:>get shot
>die
>WAAAAAAAAAAAAH NERF

Git gud and shoot first, babyboy.


"shoot first"
yeah pretty sure a nukie gun doesn't 1 shot like a syringegun
edit: also good luck when whoever is with that syringe gun is using a jetpack, really, good luck shooting him

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby Waseemq1235 » Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:06 am #500304

skoglol wrote:Just use a shield, they block syringes. You had the TC for one, I checked when I stole the uplink.

It isn't only nukies who are fucked by this, literally everyone, antags and nonantags, a traitor chemist straight up murdering someone in 30 seconds by shooting him once is kinda outrageous. Atleast make it harder to make.

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby Kryson » Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:19 am #500312

I agree that lexorin is kind of OP since it deals massive damage and is really easy to make. It used to not be that super strong but oxyloss has been made much harder to treat(epi nerf, easy salbutamol removed, perf nerfed).

Other really strong toxins such as bath salts, coniine, skewium and entropic polypnium are much harder to get an sometimes inferior to lexorin.

Id be fine with lexorin being toned down a litte bit but some underused toxins should get some love to compensate.

Poisoning people is a much better antag gimmick than the lame stun into any weapon strategy most powergamers use.

It can feel cheap though, one round i killed 3 loud traitors with 10u bathsalts piercing syringes + hiding the charcoal and mannitol. Felt bad after.

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby Qydra » Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:45 am #500320

There's nothing stopping you from carrying Calomel, Epinephrine, Atropine, or other anti-poison medicines on your person if you're worried about poison.

Lexorin is the only basic lethal ammunition a chemist has. I would be very hesitant to nerf it.

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby wesoda25 » Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:47 am #500322

literally everyone starts with lexorins hard counter roundstart
Where does your body end?

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby skoglol » Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:04 am #500352

Waseemq1235 wrote:edit: also good luck when whoever is with that syringe gun is using a jetpack, really, good luck shooting him


Well don't blow the grav gen then :^)

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby Kryson » Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:02 am #500374

wesoda25 wrote:literally everyone starts with lexorins hard counter roundstart


That has not been true for over 3 months since epi was nerfed.

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:epipen and perf counters it


Epi doesn't do much, perf leaves you with 72+ toxin damage.

The only think i can thing of that negates lexorin is perf + anti-toxin.

As for the other suggestions calomel is better than atropine for this application, atropine will just prevent you from dying, you will still get knocked out until the lexorin has metabolized.

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby NoxVS » Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:41 pm #500418

While everyone has a counter to it at round start not everyone magically knows what they were just injected with. It’s impossible to tell toxic damage from oxy loss without an analyzer
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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby Cobby » Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:29 pm #500426

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby Kryson » Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:23 pm #500455

NoxVS wrote:While everyone has a counter to it at round start not everyone magically knows what they were just injected with. It’s impossible to tell toxic damage from oxy loss without an analyzer


This has not been true for 3.5 months.

See this PR

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/43022

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby cedarbridge » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:17 am #500533

Waseemq1235 wrote:1 minute

lmao as if any combat can't resolve itself before that. Stop getting hit and then whining you got KO'd by something that took 30sec-1m to even affect you.

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby terranaut » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:56 am #500581

remember when chloral hydrate used to be instant knockout
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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby Kryson » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:26 pm #500587

cedarbridge wrote:
Waseemq1235 wrote:1 minute

lmao as if any combat can't resolve itself before that. Stop getting hit and then whining you got KO'd by something that took 30sec-1m to even affect you.



If you are smart you can often stall for the less than 30 seconds it takes to knock someone out, it also slows the victim down after some time.

What bugs me about lexorin isn't that its good, its that is one of the very best poisons and it takes no effort to make. All it takes is a glowstick and a bar of plasma.

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby imsxz » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:39 pm #500591

I think lexorin is fine from just looking at the numbers but it’s much stronger than most antag only/botany chems or otherwise chems that are difficult to acquire.

Other than that it’s easy enough to counteract lexorin. Oxygen lockers are abundant and tend to have oxy heal medkits, and charcoal is probably one of the top easiest chems to get. It is definitely very lethal compared to other chem but is by no means certain death.
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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby CPTANT » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:48 pm #500612

Kryson wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
Waseemq1235 wrote:1 minute

lmao as if any combat can't resolve itself before that. Stop getting hit and then whining you got KO'd by something that took 30sec-1m to even affect you.



If you are smart you can often stall for the less than 30 seconds it takes to knock someone out, it also slows the victim down after some time.

What bugs me about lexorin isn't that its good, its that is one of the very best poisons and it takes no effort to make. All it takes is a glowstick and a bar of plasma.


This is the major problem, there is no effort/reward curve in the chemistry system. More powerful chemicals are easier to craft so many times than weaker ones.
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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby cedarbridge » Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:07 pm #500629

un-nerf neurotoxin

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby wesoda25 » Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:11 pm #500655

NoxVS wrote:While everyone has a counter to it at round start not everyone magically knows what they were just injected with. It’s impossible to tell toxic damage from oxy loss without an analyzer

You can’t breathe
Where does your body end?

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby terranaut » Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:54 am #500721

CPTANT wrote:This is the major problem, there is no effort/reward curve in the chemistry system. More powerful chemicals are easier to craft so many times than weaker ones.

You just ever dump a full bluespace syringe of teslium with a bit of skewium in a guy
it's really funny and much cooler than just doing a chloral lexorin fentanyl kill mix
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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby Shadowflame909 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:11 am #500723

I got mute toxin'd + Lexorin. Was trying to run away but this nerd kept disarming me into walls as I slowly started to slow-down.

F. The realest way to deal with this is to have some charcoal on your self at all times.

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby CPTANT » Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:41 am #500775

terranaut wrote:
CPTANT wrote:This is the major problem, there is no effort/reward curve in the chemistry system. More powerful chemicals are easier to craft so many times than weaker ones.

You just ever dump a full bluespace syringe of teslium with a bit of skewium in a guy
it's really funny and much cooler than just doing a chloral lexorin fentanyl kill mix


No I prefer a cloud of black powder and phlogiston to turn a horde of kittens into walking bombs.
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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby Dr_bee » Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:13 pm #500789

Lexorin was balanced around old oxygen damage, so it might be time to tone it down a bit. I mean oxy damage used to be easy as fuck to heal before.

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby terranaut » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:25 pm #500809

Dr_bee wrote:Lexorin was balanced around old oxygen damage, so it might be time to tone it down a bit. I mean oxy damage used to be easy as fuck to heal before.

the epipen in your internals box removes all oxygen damage in excess of 35 from you for as long as the epinephrine remains in your blood
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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby CPTANT » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:41 pm #500811

terranaut wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:Lexorin was balanced around old oxygen damage, so it might be time to tone it down a bit. I mean oxy damage used to be easy as fuck to heal before.

the epipen in your internals box removes all oxygen damage in excess of 35 from you for as long as the epinephrine remains in your blood


Nope, epinephrine got nerfed.

Epinephrine: Prevents oxygen damage from crit state. If the patient is in crit it heals 0.5 oxyloss, toxins, brute, and burn. 20% chance each tick to reduce stun times a bit. Gives a minor stamina regeneration buff.
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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby Taylork2 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:17 pm #500824

So, I guess the counters are this is either to prevent it from happening, or to negate it.

So I guess you can become a slime person and remove your liver, keep charcoal on you, keep Perf on you, or keep anti-toxin on you.

Nuke Ops can really only do the charcoal unless chemistry manages to make some and you steal it.

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby terranaut » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:24 pm #500827

CPTANT wrote:
Epinephrine: Prevents oxygen damage from crit state. If the patient is in crit it heals 0.5 oxyloss, toxins, brute, and burn. 20% chance each tick to reduce stun times a bit. Gives a minor stamina regeneration buff.


What a dumb change
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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby cedarbridge » Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:09 pm #501125

terranaut wrote:
CPTANT wrote:
Epinephrine: Prevents oxygen damage from crit state. If the patient is in crit it heals 0.5 oxyloss, toxins, brute, and burn. 20% chance each tick to reduce stun times a bit. Gives a minor stamina regeneration buff.


What a dumb change

Yes

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby Waseemq1235 » Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:52 pm #501159

terranaut wrote:
CPTANT wrote:
Epinephrine: Prevents oxygen damage from crit state. If the patient is in crit it heals 0.5 oxyloss, toxins, brute, and burn. 20% chance each tick to reduce stun times a bit. Gives a minor stamina regeneration buff.


What a dumb change

Agreed.

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby ATHATH » Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:38 pm #501797

Kryson wrote:I agree that lexorin is kind of OP since it deals massive damage and is really easy to make. It used to not be that super strong but oxyloss has been made much harder to treat(epi nerf, easy salbutamol removed, perf nerfed).

Gee, it's almost as if nerfing oxy damage healing chems has caused oxy damage dealing chems to become overpowered. Who could have seen that coming?

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby ATHATH » Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:41 pm #501801

Waseemq1235 wrote:
terranaut wrote:
CPTANT wrote:
Epinephrine: Prevents oxygen damage from crit state. If the patient is in crit it heals 0.5 oxyloss, toxins, brute, and burn. 20% chance each tick to reduce stun times a bit. Gives a minor stamina regeneration buff.


What a dumb change

Agreed.

Amen to that.

To be fair, I'll admit that oxy damage was a bit TOO easy to heal before, but I think it's gone a bit too far the other way (if you don't have someone to give you CPR) now. Defibbing people is now quite annoying, as you now have to inject their corpse with epi, apply the defib, and then sit around and spam CPR on them if you want them to not re-die. Perhaps that's intentional.

Or maybe I'm just salty about change/healing being made more complicated to do, I dunno. The point is, I think that either lexorin should be nerfed or oxy healing meds should be buffed/made to not be absolutely cancerous to deal with and use.

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby ATHATH » Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:51 pm #501802

imsxz wrote:oxy heal medkits

Which, after they got nerfed, are worth about as much as empty boxes are if you don't have charcoal on you (which I usually do, but not everyone should be forced to tide for the limited supply of charcoal bottles if they want to effectively heal their own oxy damage).

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby Dr_bee » Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:57 pm #501803

The oxygen cap could probably be moved to atropine, as it is difficult to make. This leaves a hard counter to oxy damage with a good downside, following cobby's ideas for medbay.

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby Kryson » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:04 pm #501813

Dr_bee wrote:The oxygen cap could probably be moved to atropine, as it is difficult to make. This leaves a hard counter to oxy damage with a good downside, following cobby's ideas for medbay.


Atropine is already stupidly good, it has no real downside to begin with. Even carrying a common perf syringe extends your lifespawn quite a bit against lexorin.

I am glad old epi is gone, but lexorin could really use a harder recipe.

Grinding glowsticks and plasma bars for lexorin is my go to way of killing people, targets and murderboners alike when i have no powerful traitor gear. One of the best poisons in the game should not also be one of the easiest to make.

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby oranges » Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:38 am #501905

make lexorin harder to make

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby Denton » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:01 am #501906

Toxins need a major review, as in:
- Recipe complexity and plant mutation tier doesn't correspond with how strong the chemical is
- Traitor only chemicals like spewium are often weaker than regular toxins
- Too many copy paste chems with the same effects and slightly tweaked numbers
- Too little variety in damage types and other negative effects
- Too little variety in cures/antitoxins

IMO a good start would be making a spreadsheet that lists all toxins and their properties.
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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby CPTANT » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:10 am #501907

Denton wrote:Toxins need a major review, as in:
- Recipe complexity and plant mutation tier doesn't correspond with how strong the chemical is
- Traitor only chemicals like spewium are often weaker than regular toxins
- Too many copy paste chems with the same effects and slightly tweaked numbers
- Too little variety in damage types and other negative effects
- Too little variety in cures/antitoxins

IMO a good start would be making a spreadsheet that lists all toxins and their properties.


Spewmium is shit, but the chemical kit also contains God tier poisons. You mix the right cocktail from the chemical kit and someone is crit in 5 seconds.
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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby confused rock » Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:27 pm #501935

Once outside cyanide the only poison able to kill in 15u was a plasma syringe if entirely untreated.
Now 0.4u of initripodril can give you a heart attack.
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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby Tamaguen » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:28 pm #502019

As somebody who usually only plays medical, Lexorin is one of the things I hate treating the most. If somebody is dragged in with 14 units of lexorin still in their system, it means I either have to give them half a dozen cups of coffee and keep injecting them with epinephrine, or beg and plead with chemistry to make me Calomel (They won't.) I definitely think it should be harder to make in large quantities, because it's quickly becoming a new meta-poison.
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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby SkeletalElite » Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:24 am #502044

With the epi nerf and the salbu removal, this chem is much harder to survive even in a relatively small amount.

With only perf, even just 20 units or lexorin is enough to crit from all the toxin damage youre going to take. Combining epi and perf can keep you alive if epi will take you out of crit with its healing. I dont know if its possible for it to do that. I only know it heals .5 per tick while youre in crit and only while youre in crit.

I think simply making it have a harder recipe would be fair. After being injected with this you have a very limited amount of time to reach a supply of perf before you die, if combined with heparin (which it often is) you also need to reach a bandage or your'e dead. I'm not quite sure what that amount of time is because I don't know how many ticks are in a second, but if its too limited perhaps just an obvious alert when are first injected with lexorin would be fine, so you know youre on the clock before you die.

Something like "Your breathing becomes extremely labored!"
Last edited by SkeletalElite on Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby HommandoSA » Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:25 am #502045

confused rock wrote:Now 0.4u of initripodril can give you a heart attack.


Initripodril has been strong for a long time.

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RobustAndRun
 
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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby RobustAndRun » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:06 am #502067

You're going about this the wrong way. If you want this nerfed, just PR it and it'll be merged by the weekend.

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Cobby
 
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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby Cobby » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:43 pm #502119

he's right tbh
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current

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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby adamkad1 » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:14 pm #502517

ATHATH wrote:
Waseemq1235 wrote:
terranaut wrote:
CPTANT wrote:
Epinephrine: Prevents oxygen damage from crit state. If the patient is in crit it heals 0.5 oxyloss, toxins, brute, and burn. 20% chance each tick to reduce stun times a bit. Gives a minor stamina regeneration buff.


What a dumb change

Agreed.

Amen to that.

To be fair, I'll admit that oxy damage was a bit TOO easy to heal before, but I think it's gone a bit too far the other way (if you don't have someone to give you CPR) now. Defibbing people is now quite annoying, as you now have to inject their corpse with epi, apply the defib, and then sit around and spam CPR on them if you want them to not re-die. Perhaps that's intentional.

Or maybe I'm just salty about change/healing being made more complicated to do, I dunno. The point is, I think that either lexorin should be nerfed or oxy healing meds should be buffed/made to not be absolutely cancerous to deal with and use.



imsxz got salty he couldnt murder people as chem so he nerfed epi?

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Cobby
 
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Re: Nerf Lexorin

Postby Cobby » Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:53 pm #502561

anti-crit chems are dumb anyways, I'm for stabilizing (as in no more passive damage like inaprovaline) but it's incredibly difficult to balance meds when there's a med that heals literally everything with no downside whenever you're in the state at which you care about having meds on top of every other med.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current

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