Some sort of teleportation blocking is really needed

[CPTANT]

Mostly for the AI. There are just so many things that can outright teleport straight on top of the AI and kill it with 0% risk.

Wraiths, wizards, revenants, suitcase jump pads, regular jump pads. There are just too many damn things that can do it.

Vulnerabilities are fine, but instant kills with no risk aren't really. This would be solved by introducing a device that limits teleportation/jaunting is a certain radius.

[Shadowflame909]

Fuck the ai.

Get decked. If you dont want it to die on confirmed cult/abductors. Move that nerd

Also teleportation blocking does exist. The chaplain can bless tiles to prevent teleportation.

[CPTANT]

Fuck the ai.

Get decked. If you dont want it to die on confirmed cult/abductors. Move that nerd

Also teleportation blocking does exist. The chaplain can bless tiles to prevent teleportation.

It's like 5 different sources that may or may not have revealed themselves before the AI dies with 0 counterplay whatsoever.

[Shadowflame909]

Armory discretion applies then.

You may have an extremely easy counter against this. But if you aren't aware of it before it happens. Then that's just tough luck.

Ai has it easier because usually someone has a very very very good reason for killing them. Unlike the e-bow cremate meta.

[XDTM]

The code is already there for tile-based teleportation interception or denial. Even if someone codes a teleportation blocking machine, though, it's unlikely that someone will ever bother to build it in the AI core in a normal round, so it would have to be placed there at roundstart, which is a questionable balance change.

[Anonmare]

Fuck the ai.

Get decked. If you dont want it to die on confirmed cult/abductors. Move that nerd

Also teleportation blocking does exist. The chaplain can bless tiles to prevent teleportation.

Only stops jaunting, not teleportation. Wizards can teleport freely into those areas. Plus you can't make the walls holy, meaning they can dejaunt inside the wall and contiue unabated. and wraiths just need to yeet the APC and you're effectively dead.

Also Abductors don't need camera vision to teleport down, they can TP into camera static just fine, not like an AI can hide rom them anyway.

It sucks most for malf AIs where the "Just move lol" is impossible. APC shunting doesn't count because you can't do jack while shunted, may as well be dead for the amount of influence you have in your 7 tile vision. Last I checked, you even lose syndie radio too.

I'd like at the very least a 2 tile no teleport zone around the core itself. TPing onto the core itself is something I consider an bug exploit

[Shadowflame909]

Fuck the ai.

Get decked. If you dont want it to die on confirmed cult/abductors. Move that nerd

Also teleportation blocking does exist. The chaplain can bless tiles to prevent teleportation.

Only stops jaunting, not teleportation. Wizards can teleport freely into those areas. Plus you can't make the walls holy, meaning they can dejaunt inside the wall and contiue unabated. and wraiths just need to yeet the APC and you're effectively dead.

Also Abductors don't need camera vision to teleport down, they can TP into camera static just fine, not like an AI can hide rom them anyway.

It sucks most for malf AIs where the "Just move lol" is impossible. APC shunting doesn't count because you can't do jack while shunted, may as well be dead for the amount of influence you have in your 7 tile vision. Last I checked, you even lose syndie radio too.

I'd like at the very least a 2 tile no teleport zone around the core itself. TPing onto the core itself is something I consider an bug exploit

Don't forget the revenant as well.

Also, I was pretty sure blessing tiles also harmed the wizard in some way. Like, I thought they couldn't use their spells at all on a blessed floortile.

[Ghilker]

fuck those launchpads! too many times i got fucked by those things, cause you just need a tiny room in hiding to fuck up the AI without even giving a warning, even if you work with sec by going around maint, checking every little space, you cannot be safe, because those things are the worst.
No warning and no way to counter it
Just maxcap the core and you done. While as the AI you just sit there waiting to get bombed, cause guess what, you cannot protect yourself in any way, even if you see the mark you are not sure to be fast enough to counter it.
Nerf it, remove it, or just add something that counter teleportation, like the core is shielded and the only way to access is the teleporter room

[Shadowflame909]

As a defender of teleportation once more I say.

All your complaints are for Antagonists only.

Antagonists have a certain level of "overpowered" that normal crew-members do not have.

Which is why when the AI is an antag, normal crewmembers will be cucked to see those very difficult to break r-walls and emagged army of borgs.

When the AI is being hunted by an antagonist for 1000% good reason, it will be cucked to see all the antagonists with access to gear, have some way of teleporting into its core.

I say if normal crew-members can suffer the ei-nath + stun, lg-saw instant kill spray, and e-bow + cremate. Then I think the AI should have a bit of banes as well to suffer from no chance of stopping.

It's just the game bro. Unless you radically change it. Everyone has the same chance to lose.

If the AI is screaming on comms and no one is listening, or Comms is already down. That is also, the game. The antagonists have already won.

[Ghilker]

As a defender of teleportation once more I say.

All your complaints are for Antagonists only.

Antagonists have a certain level of "overpowered" that normal crew-members do not have.

Which is why when the AI is an antag, normal crewmembers will be cucked to see those very difficult to break r-walls and emagged army of borgs.

When the AI is being hunted by an antagonist for 1000% good reason, it will be cucked to see all the antagonists with access to gear, have some way of teleporting into its core.

I say if normal crew-members can suffer the ei-nath + stun, lg-saw instant kill spray, and e-bow + cremate. Then I think the AI should have a bit of banes as well to suffer from no chance of stopping.

It's just the game bro. Unless you radically change it. Everyone has the same chance to lose.

If the AI is screaming on comms and no one is listening, or Comms is already down. That is also, the game. The antagonists have already won.

that is bullshit right here, because the AI need time to prepare itself to deal some real damage, and still you just need 2 beakers of termite and a bomb to cuck it from space;

every time the AI is antag if it doesnt pay attention, if he seems even a little suspicious, will be cucked so fast you cant even say borg help.

Now is true, normal crew can have an hard time dealing with a rogue AI, but still,
r-wall?
just use thermite,
borgs?
a single flash and its gone;

you have plenty of way to do this and fuck back the AI, you can still defend agains a rogue AI.

A normal AI against "normal" antag? yes can have an hard time, with all those EMP and laser guns, etc, but can still fight back in some way.

Against an antag with launchpad? what the fuck can i do??
the launchpad is not hard to do, not hard to hide, not hard to use, how can you defend teleportation done in such a way? only by saying "BuT aI sHoUlD sUfFeR tOo" you are deeply in the wrong, because even if for normal crew is hard to deal with antags, you can still fight back, the AI cannot do this. I dont even get a warning that the launchpad is going to get used, at least warn the AI that a launchpad has been built

[Shadowflame909]

>Normal Crew can still fight back

Depends on the state of antagonist my dude. Some are specifically built for armies of crewmembers.

If an antagonist has to kill a regular player. They'll fill them up with a sleepy pen, or get a revolver and kill them before they even react.

If an antagonist has to kill a state of the art AI. Which is a hard task, they'll either break some walls very slowly. Which will alert the AI (IE thermite.) Or they'll teleport in to kill it.

The AI is not made to combat most things which desire to kill it. Like Wraiths and Wizards in Rod Form.

Bombs don't really do shit. Unless we're talking about EMPs.

Ultimately, AI's are vastly powerful Doorknobs. With armies of slaves, and sometimes its own shell/A mech at its disposal.

If the AI cannot scream for help when they notice someone's e-swording their core. The Antagonist deserves to take that win.

Sometimes you lose. You just aren't meant to win.

It's pretty give and take considering how much trouble an AI can give antagonists from afar. But how useless it can be when trying to stop someone who's hellbent on killing it.

[zxaber]

Which is why when the AI is an antag, normal crewmembers will be cucked to see those very difficult to break r-walls and emagged army of borgs.

That's a pretty terrible comparison and you know it, Shadow. AI can't do jack with malf powers until it hacks APCs, which gives the crew plenty of time to bumble into some side room and find one (or question why the door to said room is bolted).
And there are so many ways to kill a malf AI that this argument is a joke.

Taking out comms and bombing your way into the core to kill an AI is one thing. But just teleporting into the little three-tile chamber where the turrets can't reach you and whacking the AI is super cheesy and terrible game balance. I'm sure we can do better.

[Shadowflame909]

Ai has an army at its control when it is an antagonist. That's pretty damn balanced to me.

Antagonists, in general, have cheesy weapons. You say antags shouldn't be able to jaunt on the ai and kill it.

But I say that the AI is a powerhouse and an all-seeing eye when it comes to stopping antagonists. It can shock doors, bolt them and bring down firelocks. If the AI knows someone is a traitor, they'll hound them and make their round a living hell.

I find it ironic in fact, that an AI can do so much against someone from far away, but once they're close up. An AI can do very little.

It's balanced. If something can get behind the AI's fortress of walls and turrets and slippy foam, and security bots. It deserves to kill it.

Trying to snowflake it so that it cannot, would be power-creep IMO.

If you feel that what I say is not true. When was the last time you were an abductor/cultist (The two roles most noteworthy for trying to kill an ai) And you very instantly lost your location/the element of surprise.

Once the AI finds out about these two. If it doesn't make any effort to try and remove itself from its starting location. Then that's on them. I'd say.

Because it's essentially a two-way dagger. Because the AI will force these antags away from their locations.

[Ghilker]

AI is no that op as you think, it seems to me that you never really played AI seriously and you are trying to guess what AI powers are.

Yes Ai is very powerful
Yes AI can see it all

But without borgs ai is nothing
Without cameras ai is nothing
Just grab gloves, screwdriver and a meter a even shocked bolted doors are nothing

Your argument would be great in a HRP server or even MRP server, but in TG and its chaos rounds and fast paced combat, trust me, AI is not op

Edit. Also where is that "army" you mention that malf AI supposedly have? One borg at start round and the hope robotics make new ones connected to you?

[Shadowflame909]

The ai has the power to eliminate the element of surprise. Which is a necessity in the majority of the antagonists on this game.

Cult is screwed if the AI finds out about their base. Same goes for blob. Abductors get screwed if the AI finds out where they're teleporting into, and the same goes for clock cult.

Ai's an All Seeing Eye. Literally, if they change their roundstart sprite to that. And they possess the power to foil antagonists from afar. Which, Antagonists can do from close up.

Likewise. I think you're downplaying the true strengths of a good AI.

It does not need this handicap.

[CPTANT]

Ai has an army at its control when it is an antagonist. That's pretty damn balanced to me.

Malf AI's don't suddenly get more borgs unless they build the borger for 100 points.

Antagonists, in general, have cheesy weapons. You say antags shouldn't be able to jaunt on the ai and kill it.

But I say that the AI is a powerhouse and an all-seeing eye when it comes to stopping antagonists. It can shock doors, bolt them and bring down firelocks. If the AI knows someone is a traitor, they'll hound them and make their round a living hell.

I find it ironic in fact, that an AI can do so much against someone from far away, but once they're close up. An AI can do very little.

It's balanced. If something can get behind the AI's fortress of walls and turrets and slippy foam, and security bots. It deserves to kill it.

Trying to snowflake it so that it cannot, would be power-creep IMO.

If you feel that what I say is not true. When was the last time you were an abductor/cultist (The two roles most noteworthy for trying to kill an ai) And you very instantly lost your location/the element of surprise.

Once the AI finds out about these two. If it doesn't make any effort to try and remove itself from its starting location. Then that's on them. I'd say.

Because it's essentially a two-way dagger. Because the AI will force these antags away from their locations.

This is completely nonsense, every antag has tools to deal with the AI, The AI is weaker then it has ever been because the rest of the game experienced power creep while the AI hasn't gotten anything in ages.

100% chance of success for killing the AI is not a form of balance. Yes if you actually break into the core you deserve to kill the AI, not when you lob in yourself (or a bomb) with your launchpad or just loljaunt straight unto it.

[Ghilker]

You are still only thinking from the antag perspective, not the AI players since you are not one, I'm not asking to just remove the Launchpad, I just want some kind of warning of it being created or used

Is frustrating to just explode without having the ability or possibility to defend yourself. Even against the malf AI you have a chance to defend or fight.

So if the power of the AI is to eliminate the element of surprise, then give us the ability to know that a Launchpad is constructed or being used

[Shadowflame909]

I won't disagree with that. All the other teleports have a tell-tale sign. IE the wizard's cloud of smoke and loud noise. Ethernal Jaunt/Cult Jaunt's loud noise and the shape of a person.

Abductors also have like a 7-second portal before they appear.

[Super Aggro Crag]

get good

[Yakumo_Chen]

The AI core is ironically the worst spot to put the AI in because the defenses are laughable with even the most basic prep (EMP is laughably easy to get for nearly every antagonist and a guaranteed AI kill if you can spam it or get in the core chamber) and because everyone knows that's where the AI will be. Moving your core is always a good strategy, especially as malf AI, because unless everyone is an xray hulk, or you are going delta (and didn't destroy the pinpointers), nobody is ever gonna find you.

[CPTANT]

The AI core is ironically the worst spot to put the AI in because the defenses are laughable with even the most basic prep (EMP is laughably easy to get for nearly every antagonist and a guaranteed AI kill if you can spam it or get in the core chamber) and because everyone knows that's where the AI will be. Moving your core is always a good strategy, especially as malf AI, because unless everyone is an xray hulk, or you are going delta (and didn't destroy the pinpointers), nobody is ever gonna find you.

That is the reality, but I do not think this is desirable from a gameplay perspective. Hiding somewhere in a tiny room in maint is rather lame.

[FloranOtten]

the Bluespace Launchpad is stupidly powerful against AIs. A basic 5050 water/potassium grenade gibs the AI when it is on the core. Not corrupt, where you have to restore the AI with a card and the RDs console, no, gibs. I think it stupid that a very easily built machine can permanently round remove an AI from 60 tiles away.

[Anonmare]

Teleportation is way too easy, other crewmembers have the advantage of legs that the AI doesn't. Also borg armies are a rarity, not the norm and the autoborger is honestly not even a good investment as it takes 2 minutes between borgings, doesn't work on dead bodies and you can smash it to death with anything you have on hand that's 100 points down the drain.

Seriously, when was the last time you've seen an autoborger, and it be used to any real effect? You can't even hide it anywhere with how much access normal people have nowadays. EMPs are piss easy to get too, even the goddamn janitor has all the tools to make a ~30 tile EMP 'nade just by using the service lathe if mining is remotely competent (material storage lets you dump uranium and metal right on the floor and cleaning grenades can easily be converted into whatever with a screwdriver and wirecutters, not that making grenades is hard).

With object damage, secborg removal and the proliferation of EMPs, it feels like AIs are easier then ever to gank and half the time I don't even need to to enter the AI core, as an antag I can just memorize the metaspots to stand in, buy an EMP kit and EMP it from outside with impunity. It can't even call for help, not even on VOX any more.

[Screemonster]

make teleportation scatter if it'd place the object on a dense turf or one occupied by an anchored object

ban materialising from jaunt and the like on such turfs

[Ayy Lemoh]

Anyways, yeah, adding basic anti-teleport stuff to some areas would be nice. If EMPing the AI is easy enough then it doesn't need to be able to go up close and personal with a briefcase teleporter.

[Ghilker]

the other day i was observing a round as a ghost, a traitor built a bluespace launchpad in the space between south solar airlocks, just in two spaces.

He then teleported precisely in the north-east solar airlocks space, where he built another bluespace launchpad.

From there he again teleported to the AI core, EMPed and killed the AI

Now tell me how you can "get good" against this bullcrap

[Super Aggro Crag]

If you guys want perfect 50/50 balance just remove all variables from the game, make the play area a blank, static floor, and make everyone exactly the same

[Ghilker]

Crag, have you ever played AI?

Is hard to keep track of the entire crew and of the entire map, even with our "godly all seeing eye"

All we want is easy to fix. Just an addition of a warning that a Launchpad has been added, with a delay of use, is a far more great addition than just "ops a bomb just arrived in your core, better die quickly!"

Another thing is some sort of anti teleportation device, that prevent any sort of teleportation unless destroyed or the Launchpad whitelisted. It could even be placed on the station, not on minisat. In the teleporter room in fact would be a great place.

This way antags still have means to launch a bomb to the core, but they have at least work a bit harder to accomplish that task.

And a little rant, Crag I only see you shitpost, making stupid threads, and in general not adding anything to the community, why? In fact your first post in here was just a "git good" nothing else to be added, at least if you had gave one motivation after the pun would have been a constructive discussion.

[Super Aggro Crag]

ive been a part of this community for a real long time and i keep seeing effective strategies get nerfed or removed from the game and its frustrating sometimes

[Ghilker]

ive been a part of this community for a real long time and i keep seeing effective strategies get nerfed or removed from the game and its frustrating sometimes

you see launchpad to core, EMP/bomb/carded AI, all of this with minimal effort from the antag and no counterpart as an "effective strategy", i see this as a bullcrap op thing that HAS to be nerfed to the ground/reworked/removed.

also is a game that has stuff constantly patched/nerfed/upgraded/removed. Don't whine abot it; i didnt complain when the atmos portable scrubbers were heavily nerfed (in fact i contributed), i like that medbay have lost sleeper pods, because you need to be more active in the game than just pressing 2 buttons to get what you want.

I'm a relatively new player, so i dont know how many stuff got removed/nerfed, but i'm sure is for a good reason; just because you dont want "effective strategies" getting removed, it doesnt mean that those things are good for the enjoyment of the players (in this case AI players)

So, you have any real opinion on why launchpads/teleporter should remain the same/be removed, or you just want to complain/whine/peanut?

[Shadowflame909]

I'd be down for a re-work. Because placing bombs in locked down and otherwise unreachable areas are the only use for the device.

[Super Aggro Crag]

ive been a part of this community for a real long time and i keep seeing effective strategies get nerfed or removed from the game and its frustrating sometimes

you see launchpad to core, EMP/bomb/carded AI, all of this with minimal effort from the antag and no counterpart as an "effective strategy", i see this as a bullcrap op thing that HAS to be nerfed to the ground/reworked/removed.

also is a game that has stuff constantly patched/nerfed/upgraded/removed. Don't whine abot it; i didnt complain when the atmos portable scrubbers were heavily nerfed (in fact i contributed), i like that medbay have lost sleeper pods, because you need to be more active in the game than just pressing 2 buttons to get what you want.

I'm a relatively new player, so i dont know how many stuff got removed/nerfed, but i'm sure is for a good reason; just because you dont want "effective strategies" getting removed, it doesnt mean that those things are good for the enjoyment of the players (in this case AI players)

So, you have any real opinion on why launchpads/teleporter should remain the same/be removed, or you just want to complain/whine/peanut?

yeah, because killing the AI is cool.

[Ghilker]

*Snip

Nice answer, I'm gonna ignore any peanut posts from you from now on since you are so immature that can't talk normally to people that want to give an idea to make the game a little bit better

I'd be down for a re-work. Because placing bombs in locked down and otherwise unreachable areas are the only use for the device.

I think that there are several ways to do this

-remove teleportation devices entirely (not cool)
-remake the bluespace Launchpad crafting and usage (better, but still the AI cannot counter this)
-add a machine (like in the teleporter room) that will block any forms of teleportation (not the magic ones or race, just the technological ones) unless the teleporting machine is whitelisted on it, like linking it with a multitool (one of the best way IMO because you can still fuck up the AI, but you have to work for it just a little bit more and the AI has a way to check for illegal transportation systems)
-add an alert to the AI that a Launchpad is connecting to the bluespace grid (cool need to add a little delay of usage, in this way the AI gets alerted and has a chance to find the machine or be moved away, still the antag has easy way to craft and use, just need to hide it better)

I think the best one is to add a "disrupting" machine, because is the easy way to nerf the Launchpad a bit but not too much and to help the AI but not too much

[zxaber]

The launchpad isn't the only concern here. Wizard and construct jaunting are also a free pass to a dead AI (Clock cult beaming down too, I suppose).

The simplest solution is a disrupter that prevents teleporting of any means into the AI's chamber. It'd have to be a round-start building too, or the change would be meaningless.

[Anonmare]

The launchpad isn't the only concern here. Wizard and construct jaunting are also a free pass to a dead AI (Clock cult beaming down too, I suppose).

The simplest solution is a disrupter that prevents teleporting of any means into the AI's chamber. It'd have to be a round-start building too, or the change would be meaningless.

Clockcult was banned from TPing into the AI core. Armoury too and, I think, atmospherics. It's not unprecedented to prevent antagonists from teleporting into places and nobody complained about abductors being banned from teleporting into the armoury/telecomms to make their job EZ (even after them being made NO_GUNS).

Literally all I want is a 2 tile radius of a no_teleport zone so that that it becomes a matter of pure reaction/preparation time for jaunting/teleporting. I recall being a nuking AI and successfully countering the crew's attempts to break-in and getting carded and yeeted out of my core by an abductor who just spawned in, moments away from victory. No cyborgs by the way and it was on meta, where no turret has LoS on the core proper so there was genuinely no way I could have prevented that.

[Super Aggro Crag]

then make the AI floor out of Redspace tiles that prevent teleportation

[Taylork2]

There is some type of teleportation blocking, Clockcult can't teleport into telecomms via Reebe, Abductors might also share this limit.

[Shadowflame909]

Maybe the ai core should just have motion alarms. That'd be a decent buff.

Abductor's have a 10 second wait time before they beam in. Jaunting is loud and very obvious + it's blockable with blessed floor tiles.

Same with the revenant.

[Anonmare]

Maybe the ai core should just have motion alarms. That'd be a decent buff.

Abductor's have a 10 second wait time before they beam in. Jaunting is loud and very obvious + it's blockable with blessed floor tiles.

Same with the revenant.

It doesn't matter if you know the abductor's coming if he beams down right on top of you, the agent can literally do nothing for 30 seconds before killing you and there's jack shit you can do about it because no turret can hit him, even if one had LoS because you'll get shot first because of how hitboxes work. Plus there's no delay on teleporting back up so all he needs to do is TP down with a card, hit you with it and beam back up before the turrets have finished their wind-up animation even if he could be hit.

Blessed tiles requires that you have, A, someone willing, able and trustworthy to bless the core, B, a Chaplain to exist, C, said Chaplain being willing to bless a water tank and finally, D, you to know you're going to need blessed tiles because otherwise it's metagaming.

Even with all that, it's not even guaranteed to work as walls can't be blessed and a wraith can just de-jaunt and rush your APC - ~two-three swipes is what it takes to break it while a wizard can either rush you with Knock for the windoor and hit you with an intellicard, use an EMP, cast Mutate, and so on. I'm not too bothered by that, only that that they can de-jaunt on-top of you at zero risk and effort.

Hell, I've actually had to start metagaming by placing Pingsky infront of the AI core and put him on Detain and emagged because I'm sick and tired of everyone doing that shit but it doesn't help against Wraiths who can jaunt onto the AI core or into a wall where the turrets can't hit them without consequence as they don't need to breathe so de-jaunting into a wall doesn't effect them, not like O2 damage is much consequence.

Revenant's effectively a non-threat because his EMP isn't a real EMP, though it does drain the SMES for reasons I can only assume are an oversight.

[terranaut]

aside from de-jaunting on top of a wall which shouldnt be possible for reasons at best tangentially related i dont think the AI needs buffs in this regard. you're already an extremely powerful and almost omnipotent being* and despite all my hours and rounds as AI, including malf/subverted, i dont think there needs to be an added protection against the the things that can kill an AI.
the AIs big weakness is its complete lack of mobility and general predictability in where its going to be and i think thats okay considering the other powers you have.
*if you're not a bad player

[CPTANT]

Ohw yay another 2 rounds in a row today of playing AI and a wraith jaunting on top. I was actually hidden quite well but the cult just uses their ghost rune and instantly knows your location.

No feature without counter play is ever fun.

[Sandshark808]

Why not just make people get gibbed if they tele into an occupied space?