I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

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datorangebottle
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I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

Post by datorangebottle » #504268

I'd like to nerf all of it so that mining gear is less snowflakey and isn't a faster-firing infinite-ammo heavy laser in ideal conditions.

In pressure, a PKA deals 10 damage without the traitor mod. In vacuum, it deals 40. The heavy laser- the only source I know of for it is mechs- deals 40 damage and requires a big stompy mechsuit, has to be reloaded, and drains power when it does. This is absurd. Lavaland should be dangerous, but not this dangerous.

Of course, for a PKA number nerf to work, the HP and armor of lavaland mobs and megafauna would have to be decreased, and thus, the damage of the Crusher and the armor of the explorer's armor would also need to go down. I'm really confused as to why the armor has bullet and radiation protection, though.

At the end of the day, I'd also like to make the crusher more worth the risk at the same time by having it deal more damage than the PKA(post-nerfs) with the backstab and detonation bonuses.

I also think that it's bullshit that a goliath landing a tendril is close to guaranteed death, and medipens are also bullshit if brought back to the station- they actively get in the way of what oranges and co are trying to do with medbay, regardless of whether that's good for the server or not. Besides, the current medipens would be overpowered in a nerfed lavaland.

Any thoughts on the matter? I'd like to only touch on numbers- I am in no way an experienced coder. Making new equipment is probably outside the scope of my current abilities.
Timberpoes wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:33 pm ImageAnother satisfied Timberpoes voter.Image
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
Chadley wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:00 am WENDEZ, cute, cute. I imagine the sleeper activation code when I hear it. That's pretty cool. qB). But I don't like that it doesn't line up to be anything obsurd like WEWLAD. 6/10

SUGMA, nevermind it makes sense now. fuckyou/10
kieth4 wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:34 pm If it goes to appeals I will stand as the shield and protect this man's right to shit himself. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
sinfulbliss wrote: I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
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Re: I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

Post by Cobby » #504277

just divide the damage by the same amount the damage is scaled up for the KA lmao
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Re: I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

Post by datorangebottle » #504283

Cobby wrote:just divide the damage by the same amount the damage is scaled up for the KA lmao
Technically scales down, but I'll take a look at the numbers that would result in and get back to you.

Edit: I don't think reducing everything to a quarter of its current values would result in a good result. PKAs would deal 10 damage in a vacuum and 2.5 damage in pressure. I think I'd rather start at 50%- base is 20, reduces to 5.
Timberpoes wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:33 pm ImageAnother satisfied Timberpoes voter.Image
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
Chadley wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:00 am WENDEZ, cute, cute. I imagine the sleeper activation code when I hear it. That's pretty cool. qB). But I don't like that it doesn't line up to be anything obsurd like WEWLAD. 6/10

SUGMA, nevermind it makes sense now. fuckyou/10
kieth4 wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:34 pm If it goes to appeals I will stand as the shield and protect this man's right to shit himself. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
sinfulbliss wrote: I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
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Re: I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

Post by Cobby » #504298

pkas don't need to be trash in low pressure after you scale it down?

Trying to fix snowflake hellscape means you can remove some of the snowflakes.
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Re: I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

Post by datorangebottle » #504299

The low pressure damage is the problem though.
Timberpoes wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:33 pm ImageAnother satisfied Timberpoes voter.Image
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
Chadley wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:00 am WENDEZ, cute, cute. I imagine the sleeper activation code when I hear it. That's pretty cool. qB). But I don't like that it doesn't line up to be anything obsurd like WEWLAD. 6/10

SUGMA, nevermind it makes sense now. fuckyou/10
kieth4 wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:34 pm If it goes to appeals I will stand as the shield and protect this man's right to shit himself. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
sinfulbliss wrote: I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
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Re: I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

Post by wesoda25 » #504300

Do it please fuck lavaland, make sure station weapons won’t be OP there tho
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Re: I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

Post by oranges » #504317

wesoda25 wrote:Do it please fuck lavaland, make sure station weapons won’t be OP there tho
How do you think we ended up in this situation the first time? It's impossible to have mining be a challenge for someone with a weapon that's less powerful than a laser and shotgun and *also* have that laser and shotgun not be overpowered on the lavaland.

So you have to accept either
A) a snowflake damage type
B) that station armoury weapons will be OP on lavaland
C) that you can snowflake some kind of damage system based on low gravity

Of all of them I personally prefer B
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Re: I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

Post by datorangebottle » #504322

We technically already have snowflake code preventing station weapons from doing much. If less than 30 damage is dealt and it wasn't brute damage, the damage gets divided by three. This is for all lavaland mobs(but not megafauna, after a quick code dive).

ED: also, B is preferable to A or C.
Timberpoes wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:33 pm ImageAnother satisfied Timberpoes voter.Image
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
Chadley wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:00 am WENDEZ, cute, cute. I imagine the sleeper activation code when I hear it. That's pretty cool. qB). But I don't like that it doesn't line up to be anything obsurd like WEWLAD. 6/10

SUGMA, nevermind it makes sense now. fuckyou/10
kieth4 wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:34 pm If it goes to appeals I will stand as the shield and protect this man's right to shit himself. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
sinfulbliss wrote: I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
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Re: I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

Post by InsaneHyena » #504343

Option B is best, because fuck miners and fuck lavaland. The snowflake gear has always been ridiculous.
Bring back papercult.

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Re: I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

Post by Cornarias » #504384

I've got a few hundred hours down in Lavaland so I guess I should give my take on this. datorangebottle heard a lot of what I had to say over in Discord during our discussion, but I think I can get my thoughts nice and organised here (and he also asked me to post, so hey). Also, this is a massive topic with a lot to it that can't really have someone say "I like this fix" since each fix has a domino effect. So I'll go ahead and start with what I see Lavaland / mining as for context and go from there.

Lavaland and mining is an inherently combat-focused role with a unique and strangely fun kind of gameplay. It's also very polarizing. A lot of people really enjoy it's gameplay loop and don't want to "go play monsterhunter" since the transition later on with the loot is rather enjoyable. There's a flair of wackiness that some of the loot adds to the station, such as the anomalous crystal. On top of that, Miner as a role (in its current state) is heavily focused on being quick, efficient, and rather robust in combat. Using the tag "Miner" to fight this is a bit silly, since Atmospherics does fusion, toxins works bombs, and virology is the most poorly named role on the station cause that ain't no virus. From my pespective, in its current state, Lavaland is actually quite fun and bypasses a lot of the issues a number of other departments have. It's engaging, rewarding, dynamic. and there is a lot to learn (though there is more mechanical learning than most other jobs on the station, as opposed to knowledge). A lot of people choose not to play it because they dislike it (which is fine), but many also fail to understand it and are still stuck back in the days of asteroid mining, which was a wholly different experience.

Now, that's my stance of Lavaland and current mining itself. I actually don't think it's an issue in it of itself, but I do think quite a few problems arise or stem from it, but this solution does not fix.

Currently, Lavaland is balanced in the same way a number of more powerful aspects of the station are. "Gamer moments" like someone going full pete, fusion flooding, irradiating the station through waste-loop fusion, cargo SM bombing, etc. They rarely happen by comparison to standard methods because less people are able to do them and / or lack the knowledge to do it. Because of that, while a lot of these are problematic to some extent they are contained because of their nature. Lavaland is the same. It's rare to see a miners surface with Drake armor, VoG, Heiro staff, drake shapechange, and start robusting people. It's rare that that anomalous crystal starts turning it into Jungle Station 13, or lavastation 13, or mass producing clowns. But when it does happen, it's always interesting. I say that as both someone who has done it and someone that has witnessed it plenty. Perhaps I appreciate it more when I see it because I know the risks the person took, since death in lavaland is something you rarely come back from, and never if it was a megafauna.

I mention all of that because this change will have a significant domino effect on that balance, and is actually the wrong place to start for when mining does get the changes it needs. It's not setting a good framework. After talking with datorangebottle some nerfs that need to happen are, such as the nerfing of explorer gear. Which, even without a single upgrade, is absurdly good armor. The issue comes with the halving of numbers to lessen their impact on the station. Currently, as everyone is aware, Lavaland is stat-boosted to hell and back to stop people grabbing a shotgun and walking downstairs to get an easy heirophant.

I notice most people here agree option B is best, but it will have a serious domino effect on the station until another PR is done to fix the issues that this one will cause.

Currently, at least on Terry, there is an issue of assistants, chaplains, curators, and sometimes even the HoP / Captain going down to lavaland and ignoring mining to hunt megafauna (and tendrils. But that's not relevant for this specifically). Because Miners are often morally obligated to mine, it detracts from their own gameplay loop. Mining isn't actually that unenjoyable, even megafauna miners enjoy the warmup and chill bits early shift. But when someone comes down and removes your late game goal, it feels like ass (I understand that fixing this issue as a whole is the end goal, but bear with me). This change will make that far, far more common. But it will also throw out of balance what I mentioned earlier about the rarity of the gamer loot making it tolerable and something fun and interesting as opposed to constant and annoying.

In its current state, megafauna hold a very real risk to the miner doing it. This is intentional. The range of a KA is limited, forcing the miner to get close to the megafauna. No matter how good you are, megafauna is dangerous, and this is the major reason why. Adding range mods fixes this to some degree, but then comes the issue of spread as well as a guarantee the fight will take longer meaning more room for error. However, a shotgun slug or a rifle bullet does not have this limitation. Originally, currently even, the limitation is ammunition. You cannot not feasibly hold the amount of ammo that you would need to kill a megafauna as a single person. This is fine, because using a weapon of that range has no drawback. It is obscenely safe and makes kiting the megafauna (which is basically how you fight them) not just easy but simple and dull. With this change, the QM can now start the shift, order shotguns (or a rifle), load it with slugs / bullets, and bugger off to go kill the Drake or Colossus within 10 minutes of the shift starting. Made easier by his access to cargo budget: ie, multiple survival pens. If the QM ordering guns is an issue, well it's not exclusive to him. Miners can start requisitioning guns from the armory (which is very reasonable, considering their line of work) and can skip the mining and upgrading part. The QM won't be the only one capable, it was just the first that came to mind that would willingly do it consistently.

Also, speaking of survival pens (and keeping on the topic of station power on lavaland), by nerfing them you are again making miners worse than the station at killing the megafauna. As mentioned KAs are inherently risky weapons, that's their shtick. So not only are station weapons now a far better option for megafauna, but because they carry far, far less risk and healing will be nerfed it makes them exponentially better. As I mentioned earlier, in my personal take on what Mining and Lavaland is, megafauna is traditionally part of their job in the sense of a fun goal to have. So these changes make miners worse at their job and make an assistant who stole the spare roundstart / got HoP access far better. This then has the knock-on effect of removing the drive of miners, as many of the megafauna focused miners will start having an easier time doing what they want by not playing miner.

I won't go full slippery slope here, but as a worst case scenario we then need to nerf lavaland loot because of how easy it is the access, which further removes miner's drive, and eventually we end back to square 1 where we needed Lavaland to make mining engaging in the first place.

-----

Holy shit that was a lot. I didn't expect that. Anyway, I'm not just going to complain without offering anything in turn, because there are issues pertaining to lavaland, a lot of them. But just tweaking some numbers will not fully fix the issues you have while having many unintended knock-on effects.

So here are some of my suggestions instead:

- Yes, nerf survival pens. This has been a long time coming.

- Lavaland mobs no longer pierce armour. To this day I do not know why they do. If you want to talk about snowflakey stuff, this is it. It also means that there's no preamble to anyone hunting megafauna, not even miners. I don't even kill goliaths for their plates, I skip right to drake.

(the above also offsets the survival pen nerf. Hell, you could probably nerf it a bit more)

- Leave lavaland HP the same

- KA's now have 2 stage requirements, heat and pressure. Without any, they deal 5 damage, with 1, they deal 15, with both, they deal a standard 40. This is a bit snowflakey (in the same way a ripley running faster at low pressure is), but thematically makes sense, is explainable, and fixes the issue of the KA being a bit too good on station. This also opens up interesting avenues for the KA to still have use on station with smart play.

- Increase the heat of lavaland by about 10C to make up for the above, or by any level which doesn't cause any significant issues.

Ideally all of the above will: Naturally make survival pens much worse on the station without impacting miners playing how they are intended to (And actually making the role more engaging), stop random people from making the gamer loot significantly more common on station to the point of it becoming boring, open up actual gameplay avenues for use of the KA while overall nerfing it significantly on-station.

-----

Gonna drop in a quick edit: This isn't to say mining doesn't need changes, and I am for the idea of the current proposed rework. But this is not a good interim solution.
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Re: I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

Post by datorangebottle » #504388

Cornarias wrote:I've got a few hundred hours down in Lavaland so I guess I should give my take on this. datorangebottle heard a lot of what I had to say over in Discord during our discussion, but I think I can get my thoughts nice and organised here (and he also asked me to post, so hey). Also, this is a massive topic with a lot to it that can't really have someone say "I like this fix" since each fix has a domino effect. So I'll go ahead and start with what I see Lavaland / mining as for context and go from there.
Thanks for posting! It's better to see it consolidated into one place instead of having to scroll up/down a discord chat that has other people talking in it and such. Besides, as I said in the chat- i'm less likely to forget it as I can come back here at any given point to review what you've said. Other people getting a look at it is also pretty important.
Now, that's my stance of Lavaland and current mining itself. I actually don't think it's an issue in it of itself, but I do think quite a few problems arise or stem from it, but this solution does not fix.
Not going to quote entire paragraphs here for brevity, and not going to make a huge point about it- the way you and I see lavaland is simply different, like the way a casual player and a speedrunner approach the same game. One of us is just a lot better at mining combat than the other. I personally find no enjoyment from going after the megafauna because more often than not I'll be gibbed and my round will be over. The only ones I've ever come close to killing are the blood-drunk miner and the heirophant- the latter of which I've never actually beaten. These changes are not meant to make the planet more accessible to casual players, though- it still takes roughly the same amount of pka/crusher attacks to down a megafauna, as far as i'm aware.
It's rare to see a miners surface with Drake armor, VoG, Heiro staff, drake shapechange, and start robusting people. It's rare that that anomalous crystal starts turning it into Jungle Station 13, or lavastation 13, or mass producing clowns. But when it does happen, it's always interesting.
This is very true, but how rare are the other gamer moments compared to mining's? I feel like I see bombs, fusion, and cargo engine shenanigans happen far more often than mining downs even a single megafauna. Granted, this is just that, a feeling. I have no statistics to back this up. But it's not something you can teach people- it's something people just have to understand and figure out for themselves, and that makes it inherently more rare than every other gamer moment you've mentioned.
I notice most people here agree option B is best, but it will have a serious domino effect on the station until another PR is done to fix the issues that this one will cause.
This isn't wrong. Any change of this scope will have a serious effect on the station. We're talking halving the numbers of a very regularly visited z-level that can have a lot of cool things that make it worth going to. But a lot of the nerfs are pretty necessary and the numbers for PKA damage can't be decreased without having a domino effect on other numbers like fauna health, and the damage of the crusher as an example.

But when someone comes down and removes your late game goal, it feels like ass.
This is already happens to many jobs. It's akin to atmos techs making bombs and blowing up the station before toxins can. Or another department stealing research points. Or someone making their own mech fab area, making a mech, and going on a rampage with it. Mining is perhaps the only place where it doesn't happen with much regularity, which is an unfortunate downside to these changes. I feel like the real issue here is that lavaland was made accessible to the public. These number changes wouldn't really have this effect if most of those people had to go through the HOP/QM to get access to the planet and become a miner instead of just rushing down there on the public shuttle and grabbing the gear.
If the QM ordering guns is an issue, well it's not exclusive to him. Miners can start requisitioning guns from the armory (which is very reasonable, considering their line of work) and can skip the mining and upgrading part.
Which leads to some variety in mining's weaponry, which is kinda desperately needed. It's currently PKA or bust. The crusher is too high risk and too low reward to bother considering. That said, again, this is less a problem with mining and more a problem with those particular weapons being overtuned. A combat mech should be useful on lavaland, in my opinion. It probably won't be useful against the big creatures, but it should be able to toss the little ones around like sacks of flour. But they can't, because the HP values are so inflated that they can kill maybe three smaller creatures without having to stop for repairs. Shotguns in their current state are powerful, especially the combat shotgun. As far as I'm aware, it's the current meta weapon to take down space dragons with- the most powerful creature that can regularly show up on the station and is capable of not only holding off, but destroying four combat mechs at once.
I won't go full slippery slope here, but as a worst case scenario we then need to nerf lavaland loot because of how easy it is the access, which further removes miner's drive, and eventually we end back to square 1 where we needed Lavaland to make mining engaging in the first place.
If an assistant tides the spare roundstart, they've made themselves valid for the sake of hunting fauna. If the hop is giving them access to order combat shotguns or loot the armory, the hop is being a fuckwit and is either a traitor or should be facing some sort of serious consequence. I feel like returning the PKA to sane damage values is a necessary thing, even if it causes a handful of other nerfs, because in its current ideal situation(which is one loophole you need to circumvent, more on that later), it's an infinite ammo handheld heavy laser with a shorter range but a faster firing rate.
But just tweaking some numbers will not fully fix the issues you have while having many unintended knock-on effects.
I mean, the main issues I've tried to voice in this thread have been that survival pens are so overpowered they get in the way of the maintainers' current efforts to change medbay, PKAs are stupid overpowered in a vacuum, and explorer's gear has an unjustifiable amount of armor when the largest creatures just shred right through it anyway, along with some goofy armor values(bullet armor? really? why on earth does it have as much bio resist? 50 radiation armor? Psycho mantis?).
So here are some of my suggestions instead:
Just want to take a moment to point out to anyone watching- this is how you post on an ideas/github thread. Not 'uhh duhhh its a shit change'. Come up with alternatives.
- Yes, nerf survival pens. This has been a long time coming.
Glad we see eye to eye here.
- Lavaland mobs no longer pierce armour. To this day I do not know why they do. If you want to talk about snowflakey stuff, this is it. It also means that there's no preamble to anyone hunting megafauna, not even miners. I don't even kill goliaths for their plates, I skip right to drake.
As far as i'm aware, the only lavaland mobs that pierce armor are the megafauna themselves. Having the armor actually be effective against them would be nice.
- Leave lavaland HP the same

- KA's now have 2 stage requirements, heat and pressure. Without any, they deal 5 damage, with 1, they deal 15, with both, they deal a standard 40. This is a bit snowflakey (in the same way a ripley running faster at low pressure is), but thematically makes sense, is explainable, and fixes the issue of the KA being a bit too good on station. This also opens up interesting avenues for the KA to still have use on station with smart play.
Unless it's suuuper simple, this change is beyond the scope of my abilities. I would like input from an actual coder on this matter. It's not the worst idea- it makes it less really good for blob and space combat, which are my most major complaints about the PKA.
- Increase the heat of lavaland by about 10C to make up for the above, or by any level which doesn't cause any significant issues.
Won't that have a snowball effect on lavaland's pressure?
Gonna drop in a quick edit: This isn't to say mining doesn't need changes, and I am for the idea of the current proposed rework. But this is not a good interim solution.
Glad someone's willing to engage in discussion instead of just telling me i'm an idiot.
Timberpoes wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:33 pm ImageAnother satisfied Timberpoes voter.Image
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
Chadley wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:00 am WENDEZ, cute, cute. I imagine the sleeper activation code when I hear it. That's pretty cool. qB). But I don't like that it doesn't line up to be anything obsurd like WEWLAD. 6/10

SUGMA, nevermind it makes sense now. fuckyou/10
kieth4 wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:34 pm If it goes to appeals I will stand as the shield and protect this man's right to shit himself. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
sinfulbliss wrote: I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
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Cobby
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Re: I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

Post by Cobby » #504451

datorangebottle wrote:The low pressure damage is the problem though.
sorry I had it flipped.

I meant you can remove the low pressure scaling and jsut have a single normal damage since it no longer needs to be snowflaked for low pressure (same with other items)
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Re: I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

Post by Cornarias » #504609

I'll mostly be quoting the areas where I think there's discussion to be had. Since personal preference is just that, personal. So for the likes of how we view and enjoy Lavaland, we just differ.
datorangebottle wrote: This is very true, but how rare are the other gamer moments compared to mining's? I feel like I see bombs, fusion, and cargo engine shenanigans happen far more often than mining downs even a single megafauna. Granted, this is just that, a feeling. I have no statistics to back this up. But it's not something you can teach people- it's something people just have to understand and figure out for themselves, and that makes it inherently more rare than every other gamer moment you've mentioned.
Personally I think fusion and bombs need some tweaking to be a little harder to do. That aside, the reason for megafauna being rarer is that unlike making bombs or fusion, it carries the risk of permadeath. Less people are likely to try it. Also yes, as you said, it's not something that can be taught.

I wouldn't be opposed to some of the megafauna being made more accessible. It's the main reason I liked VR, since it let miners practice and / or learn.

But the balance is making them too common. I think that this change would swing it too hard in the other direction.
datorangebottle wrote: This isn't wrong. Any change of this scope will have a serious effect on the station. We're talking halving the numbers of a very regularly visited z-level that can have a lot of cool things that make it worth going to. But a lot of the nerfs are pretty necessary and the numbers for PKA damage can't be decreased without having a domino effect on other numbers like fauna health, and the damage of the crusher as an example.
Very true, but which is why we have the inflated numbers we currently have (Except for the armor. That's weird).

This is also one of the reasons that I think that changing the numbers, while a direct and simple solution, isn't the best one. I'm honestly concerned as to what the knock-on effect of this change would be, in a similar vein to the knock-on effect of medical's absurd budget + mining vendors being credits-based making all the medical changes for naught (currently).

Essentially, it's become whack-a-mole with problems. This change will do what you want it to, yes, but I can't see that happening without a new problem arising.
datorangebottle wrote:This is already happens to many jobs. It's akin to atmos techs making bombs and blowing up the station before toxins can. Or another department stealing research points. Or someone making their own mech fab area, making a mech, and going on a rampage with it. Mining is perhaps the only place where it doesn't happen with much regularity, which is an unfortunate downside to these changes. I feel like the real issue here is that lavaland was made accessible to the public. These number changes wouldn't really have this effect if most of those people had to go through the HOP/QM to get access to the planet and become a miner instead of just rushing down there on the public shuttle and grabbing the gear.
Frankly, single tanks need to go. Like, that needs to be done ASAP. I know it's not common, but even as an atmos main there's something... Wrong about it. It feels inherently cheap and unfair to just ignore all the restrictions placed on bombing.

For research point theft, usually the RD will go beat roboticists upside the head for that. If it's engineering that's another problem entirely. As for the mechs, that often takes longer to do when not a roboticist, whereas this change would be the opposite; a bit like if that second party started with a fully upgraded exosuit fab and tech and the roboticist did not. Lavaland's accessibility to the public didn't do much with regards to Megafauna, thankfully, since it takes a while to mine what you need or you need to break into cargo and get the tech later on. Essentially, it gives miners a nice buffer period before people run in for the megafauna specifically. But even that's mildly problematic, since it does still happen. Making it notably easier isn't ideal. As for rushing HoP, that's with regards to the public mining change, but this is different from my point of view.

As a side note, shouldn't some of that be an issue instead of accepted? Stealing research points, making bombs before toxins, etc. When another department does a job better that the department that's meant to do it, or can skip to the fun stuff without any of the work, isn't that in it of itself problematic? Imagine if Cargo could simply order nitryl / stimulum instead of the arduous and length process of making it as an atmos tech.
datorangebottle wrote:Which leads to some variety in mining's weaponry, which is kinda desperately needed. It's currently PKA or bust. The crusher is too high risk and too low reward to bother considering. That said, again, this is less a problem with mining and more a problem with those particular weapons being overtuned. A combat mech should be useful on lavaland, in my opinion. It probably won't be useful against the big creatures, but it should be able to toss the little ones around like sacks of flour. But they can't, because the HP values are so inflated that they can kill maybe three smaller creatures without having to stop for repairs. Shotguns in their current state are powerful, especially the combat shotgun. As far as I'm aware, it's the current meta weapon to take down space dragons with- the most powerful creature that can regularly show up on the station and is capable of not only holding off, but destroying four combat mechs at once.
Honestly, the issue here is kinda clear. The PKA is ranged, the other options are not. The drake has a 40 damage armor piercing attack at close range. No megafauna has an attack less than 25. Getting into melee is suicide, because megafauna are meant to be more dangerous the closer you are. Frankly, if you did go through with this change, I'd leave the crusher totally untouched (a slightly weaker fireaxe on station for miners isn't the worst thing) because it's just bad and risky, and is a purely cheese weapon where you abuse the heiro trophy and hope you get lucky. Honestly, part of me believes it'd still be bad. It's not that the PKA is overtuned, it's that megafauna are too dangerous to get close to, which ties into what I said earlier about the safety of weapons and the PKAs range limit.

As for combat mechs, it would be very hard to balance them being good against standard fauna but bad against megafauna, especially if you made this change. You'd need to snowflake something in, in honesty. Now, arguably you could say "Mining should use mechs more, give roboticists something else to do". But the issue is that mechs aren't fun. Not on lavaland, at least. The fun in lavaland comes from the megafauna's balance around player movement. If you did make this change with the idea in mind that mechs should see more use, it would simply end with roboticists getting a Gygax and going to lavaland themselves, and having (again) a much easier time than miners. In the rare case a miner got one, it would be one of those things in games where you do something that isn't fun because it's more efficient. Like grinding mobs in an MMO.

Also, this isn't even touching on the first point with regards to an expanded arsenal for miners. I would be all for that, honestly. Or at least a rebalancing of the current one. The issue is that this wouldn't be an expanded arsenal for miners. It'd be an objectively better way to fight megafauna which everyone has equal access to.
datorangebottle wrote:If an assistant tides the spare roundstart, they've made themselves valid for the sake of hunting fauna. If the hop is giving them access to order combat shotguns or loot the armory, the hop is being a fuckwit and is either a traitor or should be facing some sort of serious consequence. I feel like returning the PKA to sane damage values is a necessary thing, even if it causes a handful of other nerfs, because in its current ideal situation(which is one loophole you need to circumvent, more on that later), it's an infinite ammo handheld heavy laser with a shorter range but a faster firing rate.
The spare is stolen every other round, and no one valids the person that steals it. I mean, if anything people just ask for their own AA. Sure, sec may try and hunt them down but that rarely works out. And HoP giving out shotguns for that purpose is... Honestly more reasonable than that. Megafauna are a threat to mining, which lowers the station's efficieny. It's a risk. If an assistant wants to kill one, it's actually a very reasonable request, I feel. Assuming the gun is given on the shuttle, and returned immediately after.

This also ignores the HoP / Cap just looting the armory themselves and headed down because they're bored and their jobs have a lot of free time, and HoP specifically has next to 0 responsibility.
datorangebottle wrote:I mean, the main issues I've tried to voice in this thread have been that survival pens are so overpowered they get in the way of the maintainers' current efforts to change medbay, PKAs are stupid overpowered in a vacuum, and explorer's gear has an unjustifiable amount of armor when the largest creatures just shred right through it anyway, along with some goofy armor values(bullet armor? really? why on earth does it have as much bio resist? 50 radiation armor? Psycho mantis?).
This we're agreed on fully, but the changes you're suggesting, again, have severe knock-on effects. Nerfing survival pens and making safer weapons like shotguns and assault rifles better than the risky PKAs, without making alterations elsewhere to offset this significant drawback, will just mean that miners lose out on a popular and fun part of their job.

-----

Since the rest of it is pretty small, I'll just expand and extrapolate here.

Normal lavaland mobs do not pierce armour, but the watcher cryo beam basically bypasses your 'defenses'. Otherwise yes, only megafauna have it. And they have it in spades.

As for its efficacy as a round-start weapon against the blob being an issue, yes. On one hand, it's much much riskier than the alternative. On the other, it's a round start weapon which is easy to get access to. So yes, I can understand this being an issue. While I'd not suggest it myself cause... I don't really mind enough, I understand why and support it.

The pressure and heat issue could be fix by simply lowering the number of mols of gas in lavaland, similar to how it has the current pressure, I believe. That or it's snowflaked. I'm not actually 100% sure how lavaland atmos works anymore.

I feel the best way to fix this without causing more issues is to change functionality, not just numbers.

Example, let's say you nerfed the survival pens by 66% of their efficacy. In return, I'd expect lavaland mobs to do 66% less damage. But the issue now is that lavaland mob damage is kind of a joke and they can be assaulted roundstart, and then mining is kinda useless. So instead, remove the armour piercing on the megafauna attacks and let armour values work against them, then add scaling with watcher wings which increases heat resistance.

This does the following: Mining suits aren't obscenely broken right out the bat, but still are strong later on (even with your current suggested changes they would be, keep in mind). It promotes miners to kill fauna which assist the station somehow, such as bones for cargo and diamonds for the station. It restricts the speed at which robust miners can run down megafauna (which is an issue), and makes entering lavaland without getting suited up very dangerous. Allows the nerfing of survival pens by a significant amount while still maintaining a miner's ability to fight them. Promotes departmental cooperation to improve defenses in other ways, such as asking sec for a jumpsuit, which is more reasonably achievable than a shotgun, or adamantine armour from xenobio.

Note: Ensure that the mining suit doesn't protect from spess damage to stop miners space walking with pens.

Potential issues:

Miners are still very hard to kill on station. Personally, I don't see this as an issue. It's kind of the miner's niche, in my opinion. They're the guys that go out and do the dangerous stuff, so them being tough to kill is fitting.

As a knock on to healing nerfs needing burn resistance buffs, miner's are now harder to kill with burn damage. Overall, traditional methods of killing are less useful. Again, I don't think this is an issue if Steve Murderbone has a harder time killing someone whose job it is to go out into a dangerous environment and fight deadly creatures while collecting resources.

Megafauna getting lured to the station is still a massive problem, which your suggested change would alleviate. (potential fix if this is an issue: Lavaland creatures are more used to the heat of lavaland {which is in the suggested change} and take cold damage while in cooler areas).

Mechs may become problematic due to armour changes.

-----

There's an alternate solution, however, and that's overhauling miner weapons.

Cobby seems to not like the snowflakiness of the PKA. Considering that the PKA is the best mining weapon as mentioned earlier, and knowing the reasons as to why it is, there's an alternative: Just nerf it. Nerf it to ignore pressure entirely.

Then rebalance all of lavaland around that idea. Even if it's just changing armour values and removing piercing, increasing megafauna attack and ability delay, then lowering health by 20-25%.

Now, that's a much bigger project to work. Much bigger with a lot of tweaks that would be needed, and lots of balance testing. But that would solve the issues of: Snowflake PKA, miner weapon imbalance, station weapons being too good, survival pens being busted (as they'd be nerfed, since this change is on top of my other non-PKA suggestions), and making miners have to go the extra mile before fighting fauna while still benefiting the station and making the entirety of lavaland overall more intuitive.
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Re: I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

Post by datorangebottle » #504612

Honestly that's a lot of text, and I'd respond to it, but I got flagged in github for cussing too much at somebody who didn't want to bother with it and probably can't even make the PR anymore. So. Shrug.
Timberpoes wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:33 pm ImageAnother satisfied Timberpoes voter.Image
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
Chadley wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:00 am WENDEZ, cute, cute. I imagine the sleeper activation code when I hear it. That's pretty cool. qB). But I don't like that it doesn't line up to be anything obsurd like WEWLAD. 6/10

SUGMA, nevermind it makes sense now. fuckyou/10
kieth4 wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:34 pm If it goes to appeals I will stand as the shield and protect this man's right to shit himself. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
sinfulbliss wrote: I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
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Re: I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

Post by Cornarias » #504617

datorangebottle wrote:Honestly that's a lot of text, and I'd respond to it, but I got flagged in github for cussing too much at somebody who didn't want to bother with it and probably can't even make the PR anymore. So. Shrug.
A shame, I was hoping this'd go through with a few tweaks.
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Re: I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

Post by Kingfish » #504634

i don't think we want a meta where miners rob people of their cash so they can order a combat shotgun crate and then speedrun megafauna
KAs should naturally be the best weapon in lavaland, to disincentivize people from ordering shotguns or tiding into armory every round
if you think KAs are too combat-viable (which is pretty justified), just make it so that damage dampering is based on z-level instead of pressure
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Re: I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

Post by Whoneedspacee » #504637

datorangebottle wrote:I'd like to nerf all of it so that mining gear is less snowflakey and isn't a faster-firing infinite-ammo heavy laser in ideal conditions.

In pressure, a PKA deals 10 damage without the traitor mod. In vacuum, it deals 40. The heavy laser- the only source I know of for it is mechs- deals 40 damage and requires a big stompy mechsuit, has to be reloaded, and drains power when it does. This is absurd. Lavaland should be dangerous, but not this dangerous.

Of course, for a PKA number nerf to work, the HP and armor of lavaland mobs and megafauna would have to be decreased, and thus, the damage of the Crusher and the armor of the explorer's armor would also need to go down. I'm really confused as to why the armor has bullet and radiation protection, though.

At the end of the day, I'd also like to make the crusher more worth the risk at the same time by having it deal more damage than the PKA(post-nerfs) with the backstab and detonation bonuses.

I also think that it's bullshit that a goliath landing a tendril is close to guaranteed death, and medipens are also bullshit if brought back to the station- they actively get in the way of what oranges and co are trying to do with medbay, regardless of whether that's good for the server or not. Besides, the current medipens would be overpowered in a nerfed lavaland.

Any thoughts on the matter? I'd like to only touch on numbers- I am in no way an experienced coder. Making new equipment is probably outside the scope of my current abilities.
PKA isn't that ridiculous damage for its damage type, I'd rather have a gun or a fireball wand or any kind of stun item in the world over that. Honestly why not just make the PKA do more damage to simplemobs and have some bullshit reasoning for that, wouldn't be hard to do.

STOP TRYING TO BUFF CRUSHERS, they're specifically intended to be a different way to play that's harder and is very rarely rewarding. People still use them now, they don't need any kind of buff and it's silly to think that they do. If crushers were meant to be a starting item we'd have them in the lockers.

Goliaths landing a tendril is only basically instant death if you get chainstunned by two. Lavaland is meant to be difficult and tendrils are easily avoidable by just moving around constantly.

Medipens are a joke to get after the update. The captain can roundstart run over and use his money to buy literally 16 medipens easily. Medipens were meant to be harder to get and were easier to manage with mining points, now they aren't because you tied them to the rest of the stations money supply, so if you make medipens expensive then that means that miners have enough money to buy a shitton of cargo stuff if you ever want to make sure they get medipens (or you have to change cargo prices which is sooooo fun)

Mining gear from the vendor should've been balanced around mining values not money because now that presents new problems in balancing those prices basically. Botany has bio points I see no reason mining can't have mining points.

The medipens shouldn't be overpowered in a nerfed lavaland because you shouldn't be changing the damage the simplemobs do in lavaland, lavaland is not that difficult for most people that play, and it's not as dangerous as many people make it out to be, they just haven't practiced.
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Re: I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

Post by Anonmare » #504639

KAs do explosive damage though, just up the armour values of bullet and laser resist on mining mobs so that station weapons are ineffective while bringing the health and actual KA damage down. Why do you think KAs ignore armour 90% of the time? Only the EOD/RD hardsuit are designed to withstand that damage type.

The code with the damage type if you don't believe me. "Flag" determines what armour it rolls against.

Code: Select all

//Projectiles
/obj/item/projectile/kinetic
	name = "kinetic force"
	icon_state = null
	damage = 40
	damage_type = BRUTE
	flag = "bomb"
	range = 3
log_override = TRUE
Image
Image
Image
Kingfish
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Re: I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

Post by Kingfish » #504644

Anonmare wrote:KAs do explosive damage though, just up the armour values of bullet and laser resist on mining mobs so that station weapons are ineffective while bringing the health and actual KA damage down. Why do you think KAs ignore armour 90% of the time? Only the EOD/RD hardsuit are designed to withstand that damage type.

The code with the damage type if you don't believe me. "Flag" determines what armour it rolls against.

Code: Select all

//Projectiles
/obj/item/projectile/kinetic
	name = "kinetic force"
	icon_state = null
	damage = 40
	damage_type = BRUTE
	flag = "bomb"
	range = 3
log_override = TRUE
I didn't actually know that. Old plasma/oxygen bombs in Lavaland deal about 300 damage to megafauna though, if i recall correctly, so you could probably one-shot megafauna if health is nerfed enough.
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Re: I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

Post by Shadowflame909 » #504652

Anonmare wrote:KAs do explosive damage though, just up the armour values of bullet and laser resist on mining mobs so that station weapons are ineffective while bringing the health and actual KA damage down. Why do you think KAs ignore armour 90% of the time? Only the EOD/RD hardsuit are designed to withstand that damage type.

The code with the damage type if you don't believe me. "Flag" determines what armour it rolls against.

Code: Select all

//Projectiles
/obj/item/projectile/kinetic
	name = "kinetic force"
	icon_state = null
	damage = 40
	damage_type = BRUTE
	flag = "bomb"
	range = 3
log_override = TRUE

How the hell can megafauna take so many admin bus maxcaps then. Is it snowflaked?
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Cornarias
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Re: I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

Post by Cornarias » #504654

Whoneedspacee wrote:
datorangebottle wrote:I'd like to nerf all of it so that mining gear is less snowflakey and isn't a faster-firing infinite-ammo heavy laser in ideal conditions.

In pressure, a PKA deals 10 damage without the traitor mod. In vacuum, it deals 40. The heavy laser- the only source I know of for it is mechs- deals 40 damage and requires a big stompy mechsuit, has to be reloaded, and drains power when it does. This is absurd. Lavaland should be dangerous, but not this dangerous.

Of course, for a PKA number nerf to work, the HP and armor of lavaland mobs and megafauna would have to be decreased, and thus, the damage of the Crusher and the armor of the explorer's armor would also need to go down. I'm really confused as to why the armor has bullet and radiation protection, though.

At the end of the day, I'd also like to make the crusher more worth the risk at the same time by having it deal more damage than the PKA(post-nerfs) with the backstab and detonation bonuses.

I also think that it's bullshit that a goliath landing a tendril is close to guaranteed death, and medipens are also bullshit if brought back to the station- they actively get in the way of what oranges and co are trying to do with medbay, regardless of whether that's good for the server or not. Besides, the current medipens would be overpowered in a nerfed lavaland.

Any thoughts on the matter? I'd like to only touch on numbers- I am in no way an experienced coder. Making new equipment is probably outside the scope of my current abilities.
PKA isn't that ridiculous damage for its damage type, I'd rather have a gun or a fireball wand or any kind of stun item in the world over that. Honestly why not just make the PKA do more damage to simplemobs and have some bullshit reasoning for that, wouldn't be hard to do.

STOP TRYING TO BUFF CRUSHERS, they're specifically intended to be a different way to play that's harder and is very rarely rewarding. People still use them now, they don't need any kind of buff and it's silly to think that they do. If crushers were meant to be a starting item we'd have them in the lockers.

Goliaths landing a tendril is only basically instant death if you get chainstunned by two. Lavaland is meant to be difficult and tendrils are easily avoidable by just moving around constantly.

Medipens are a joke to get after the update. The captain can roundstart run over and use his money to buy literally 16 medipens easily. Medipens were meant to be harder to get and were easier to manage with mining points, now they aren't because you tied them to the rest of the stations money supply, so if you make medipens expensive then that means that miners have enough money to buy a shitton of cargo stuff if you ever want to make sure they get medipens (or you have to change cargo prices which is sooooo fun)

Mining gear from the vendor should've been balanced around mining values not money because now that presents new problems in balancing those prices basically. Botany has bio points I see no reason mining can't have mining points.

The medipens shouldn't be overpowered in a nerfed lavaland because you shouldn't be changing the damage the simplemobs do in lavaland, lavaland is not that difficult for most people that play, and it's not as dangerous as many people make it out to be, they just haven't practiced.
All of this is correct, but people seem intent on removing the snowflakiness so my suggestions are with that in mind.

That said, I would like crusher buffs because they are really, really bad. Like, no one uses them if they aren't new and aren't messing about.
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Re: I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

Post by oranges » #504655

The crusher is supposed to be a challenge item, but I really wish kor had just called it the challenge club
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Re: I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

Post by Anonmare » #504678

Shadowflame909 wrote:
Anonmare wrote:KAs do explosive damage though, just up the armour values of bullet and laser resist on mining mobs so that station weapons are ineffective while bringing the health and actual KA damage down. Why do you think KAs ignore armour 90% of the time? Only the EOD/RD hardsuit are designed to withstand that damage type.

The code with the damage type if you don't believe me. "Flag" determines what armour it rolls against.

Code: Select all

//Projectiles
/obj/item/projectile/kinetic
	name = "kinetic force"
	icon_state = null
	damage = 40
	damage_type = BRUTE
	flag = "bomb"
	range = 3
log_override = TRUE

How the hell can megafauna take so many admin bus maxcaps then. Is it snowflaked?
Dunno, I do know that the drake simply does not take damage from light explosions.
The code handling damage from explosions is here I think, maybe someone got it wrong?

Code: Select all

/mob/living/simple_animal/hostile/megafauna/ex_act(severity, target)
	switch (severity)
		if (1)
			adjustBruteLoss(250)

		if (2)
			adjustBruteLoss(100)

		if(3)
			adjustBruteLoss(50)
Image
Image
Image
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Re: I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

Post by skoglol » #504815

Cornarias wrote:That said, I would like crusher buffs because they are really, really bad. Like, no one uses them if they aren't new and aren't messing about.
You're supposed to hit them with the heavy end
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Re: I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

Post by Whoneedspacee » #504819

all the megafauna have snowflaked explosion damage so it takes at least 10 maxcaps to kill em

except for bubblegum cause he's my boi and i knew people would try to cheese him with my singlecaps so he only takes 50 from devestation don't @ me

people cheese the hell out of them anyways so i failed i guess but also didnt cause cheesing is fun sometimes but fuck xenobio that shit is too easy
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Re: I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

Post by Yakumo_Chen » #505137

I personally think the bigger problem isn't that miner antags are robusting the entire station with gamer gear, but they're just using it to validhunt and kill all the antags, who almost certainly don't have comparable gear to fight them.

A lot of miner gear is just really good for both griefing and validhunting (I'm looking at you, jackhammer) and the loot you get from megafauna is often just blatantly overpowered.

I mean hell, some of the stuff down there doesn't have any use on lavaland but is just insanely powerful for no good reason. There's a ruin that exists for nothing except to give you an extra captain laser, and there's a tendril item that literally gives you a 15 TC stand because why not. Miners can find a recharging taser (the hook)! That's pretty cool.

I think the miner gear is actually mostly balanced combat-wise (with the exception of the jackhammer, though)? the PKA is powerful in low pressure sure, but it still pales in comparison to a shotgun or a disabler with its shitty range, and its slow to recharge until they get it upgraded with science (which is normal station progression).

The pens are bad, I agree, but miners can also get hardsuits (useful on station with PKAs), delimbing plasma guns, hell, the legion cores are pretty fine as it is.

In a vaccuum the "normal" lavaland gear isn't really that unbalanced (no pun intended), even the normal mob drops aren't exactly overpowering. However when you add in the tendril loot and ruin and megafauna stuff and bring it back to the station (FUCK YOU I'M A DRAKE NOW) (I CAN YELL STUN ON THE RADIO AND MAKE EVERYONE ON BOARD STUNNED) that's when the balance begins to go wildly out of control, especially when you have those hundreds of hours and can more or less reliably get these sorts of items.
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Dr_bee
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:31 pm
Byond Username: DrBee

Re: I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

Post by Dr_bee » #505147

Plasma gun damage was nerfed so hard to make them unattractive as a weapon. Nerfing the brute and laser armor on the mobs would probably be enough. Stationside weapons fighting megafauna should be ok as they have the distinct disadvantage of using ammo.

If a miner wants to ask for a combat shotgun to do 60 damage or lasers to do 40 when the PK can do 60 with infinate ammo let them.

PKs should be switched to brute armor if the armor levels are changed, as having it run off bomb armor is bullshit, armor is weak enough as is without there being a common weapon that completely bypasses it.
Tlaltecuhtli
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:16 am
Byond Username: Tlaltecuhtli

Re: I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

Post by Tlaltecuhtli » #505175

remove the snowflake mob armor and a loudness effect, if you use loud weapons like lasers and shotguns, megafauna and mobs will get attracted to your position from offscreen
make pka not work at 0 atmosphere to remove spaceruins + blob cheesing
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Boris
In-Game Admin
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:21 pm
Byond Username: Borisvanmemes
Location: Soon to be Atlantis

Re: I want to nerf the damage, armor, and HP of lavaland.

Post by Boris » #505177

I tried to do this but gave up because i don't know how to code, good luck with this.
current admin that was formerly retired due to inactivity
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