Security buffs

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Security buffs

Postby oranges » Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:15 am #505308

Yes you read the title right, I am considering some security buffs.

The first is inspired by goon, where the security officer has "security training" which significantly reduces the effects of stuns/stamina damage on them, and also gives them an edge in hand to hand combat.

I would have this as a trait/quirk that security officers have, roundstart and late join.

  • This would give them high stamina resists, (honestly I'm thinking as high as 50%) and lowered stun times.
  • It would also grant them increased stamina damage with their fists, as well as the ability to resist shoves stunning them at all, and more importantly they no longer drop items in their active hand when they are slipped or shoved over.
  • When they have a cuffed person in a pull grab, they are not subject to any slowdowns
  • when they have a cuffed person in a pull grab, other people cannot pull that person away from the sec officer without breaking their pull first

This is lore wise explained as they are trained in restraint/control situations and have spent time hardening themselves to these kinds of situations and fights.

The second is to take a look at security Armour, and to look at tweaking these upwards, to make security officers more resistant to common types of projectile damage like lasers and brute projectiles. Not huge amounts like their stamina/stun resist, but meaningful enough to matter.

I'm not as convinced on the armour changes being necessary, but my feeling is that the first trait needs to happen.

Yes, this makes a security officer, pound for pound, able to outmatch most crew members in a physical fight, especially where both are not using lethal weapons. However, this I think is acceptable, where the primary role of security is to be keeping the peace between crew, and resolving conflicts by arresting trouble makers, it prevents trouble makers being able to get a quick knockdown on a security officer when they're in the middle of arrests or taking someone back to security and hopefully will make security a more attractive option to play by making it easier to deal with people who are consistently causing trouble as non antagonists.

It also increases their danger rating against antags, but, the clever or prepared antag will find ways to outmatch security officers using the items they have available and they have a lot more lethal, loud options available, if they're not trying the sneaky beaky route.



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Re: Security buffs

Postby oranges » Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:37 am #505310

update: I think being able to grant it is too powerful, so it should only be available to roundstart and late join security officers

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Re: Security buffs

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:08 pm #505312

sec starts with strong gear, can choose which department access they want (which means having whatever unique gear that dep has like rcd and gloves from engi or boh/rush guns from sci/ order 2 disabler crates from cargo etc, have increased liberty to get stuff like extra access from hop or antag gear

having some special free combat buffs will just make people go sec then go do whatever they wanted to do as there is no obligation for the officer to care about responding to sec calls when george mc john breaks a window

i would say port security gps from vg which work as harm alarms + gps and buffs the coordination factor which usually sec lacks

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Re: Security buffs

Postby Kryson » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:09 pm #505313

Can't we just give them better equipment?

Invisible permanent traits that give huge combat advantages are kind of cringe, bro.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby Lazengann » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:14 pm #505314

Sounds like there'd be a bunch of sec officers at the HoP line roundstart.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:19 pm #505318

Cool i love beating up people
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Re: Security buffs

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:21 pm #505319

Cool i love beating up people
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Re: Security buffs

Postby deedubya » Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:05 pm #505323

Armor buff is probably unnecessary, but the "well-trained" status seems legit to me.

If you want to be able to give it to deputies but still have it somewhat balanced, make it an item you can dispense from one of the security vendors for 5k or 10k credits. If security wants to recruit deputies, they'll either have to deal with the fact that they're shittier than a regular officer, or cut into their department budget to get more competent officers.
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PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:16 pm.
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Re: Security buffs

Postby halitosisman » Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:34 pm #505332

With player cooperation and knowledge, security players can already obtain the advantages you're proposing to give them.

-Most departments have means of providing stamina resists and reduced stun times.
-Medical and robotics can get anti drop implants. Sec has roundstart access to buckshot, which is reliable in melee.
-If sec has the above advantages, they should be able to deter prisoner stealing by putting down the individuals responsible.

Just gonna throw an alternative idea of my own out here. Most departments have means of producing these wondrous items and abilities, but little time and motivation to distribute them. If some one introduces a mechanic to solve that problem, they'll buff consumer departments like security, and simultaneously increase the player interaction that this game is all about.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby Mickyan » Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:51 pm #505334

Sounds nice, security officers should be a threat, not an opportunity; buffing sec gear only paints an even bigger target on their back
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Re: Security buffs

Postby Xeroxemnas » Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:10 pm #505343

Anything that shits on greytide is a plus in my book.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby SIX10 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:12 pm #505344

halitosisman wrote:With player cooperation and knowledge, security players can already obtain the advantages you're proposing to give them.

-Most departments have means of providing stamina resists and reduced stun times.
-Medical and robotics can get anti drop implants. Sec has roundstart access to buckshot, which is reliable in melee.
-If sec has the above advantages, they should be able to deter prisoner stealing by putting down the individuals responsible.

Just gonna throw an alternative idea of my own out here. Most departments have means of producing these wondrous items and abilities, but little time and motivation to distribute them. If some one introduces a mechanic to solve that problem, they'll buff consumer departments like security, and simultaneously increase the player interaction that this game is all about.

Completely agree with this. We should encourage department cooperation and player participation, not just give it to them with no work on sec's part.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby John_Gobbel » Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:20 pm #505347

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:sec starts with strong gear, can choose which department access they want (which means having whatever unique gear that dep has like rcd and gloves from engi or boh/rush guns from sci/ order 2 disabler crates from cargo etc, have increased liberty to get stuff like extra access from hop or antag gear

having some special free combat buffs will just make people go sec then go do whatever they wanted to do as there is no obligation for the officer to care about responding to sec calls when george mc john breaks a window

i would say port security gps from vg which work as harm alarms + gps and buffs the coordination factor which usually sec lacks


1. Going into a department and tiding their gear is a dick move. Sec shouldn't be acting like the regular old powergamer and stealing other people's shit.

2. If people go sec to do whatever they want (which they already do) the heads of staff, AI, or Captain are there to keep them in check. If the HoS isn't doing their job and demoting people who act like shitters, they should lose their job. If players aren't adminhelping when security is abusing their role, that is another problem.

3. Having security gps would also be a good idea which I've already wanted for a while and would make sense. (Ping an officer's location when their vitals drop below a certain point) Stopping combat to scream that you're in danger will either A. let the perp get away easier or B. let them kill you while you're screaming for backup.


===========

On to Oranges' post:

I think that adding the well-trained buff to security will help to assuage the impact of all of the stun-based changes being made to the game and will help keep security balanced while these changes are being made. Having security be able to do a bit extra to get criminals in custody and be able to tank a little bit more will be a HUGE quality of life change.

With regards to the armor, I think that small changes up for the regular sec gear is pretty important as most of the sec gear is barely on par with the other armors available to the crew. This goes doubly so for the HoS armor (which is sprited like POWER ARMOR from HALO but doesn't act like it). The HoS armor is very weak for what it should be doing, and honestly, when the HoS puts on their hardsuit it should mean that it's really serious. (Perhaps lock down the HoS Armor until red alert is engaged, I think that would be pretty neat).

Overall I think this is a great change for sec and will make combat between them and antagonists more interesting; less "Hurr durr I will stun you and then kill you" and more "I will outsmart you and kill you in an interesting manner."

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Re: Security buffs

Postby The Respected Man » Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:41 pm #505351

The syndicate energy bow uses stam damage to keep people down and it takes like 2-3 shots.
You're thinking as high as 50% so the result will be that the e-bow will need 4-6 hits to stam crit an officer?

I may be a sec main but you must understand that the fun i see in security is that it's difficult, risky. For example i wanted the taser gone because it allowed me to defeat any antag who did not utilize stimulants, making sec too easy and therefore boring so let us avoid that

The officer restraining cuffed people is great but i want to expand that.

I would like to suggest something else and it's a counter to the stimulant meta, there's no real reason to not use stimulants when you are opposing security. If a person utilizing stimulants is downed, an officer who is quick enough to act before the suspect gets up can "pin" them. If the officer is ontop of the suspect (same tile) and grabs them, the grab will be a pin. This pin prevents the suspect from getting up or crawling and the officer can slap cuffs on them. An officer who is quick to act on the 1-2 seconds that a person on stimulants is stunned can pin them down so that they may be captured rather than killed.

At the moment, when i hear a person is utilizing stimulants i load my shotgun with buckshot

The base armor the sec officer wears is level-1 armor, obviously bullets and lasers barely take notice of that and i believe that should continue being the case because you have to understand the base armor is meant to be a compromise of the riot armor in that it doesn't protect against melee as much but does not slow you down. The bulletproof armor and helmet that security has access to allows you to tank 5 syndicate revolver hits before you enter a critical condition so in regards to bullets i feel that security is very well equipped for that.

However, when it comes to laser-based weaponry there is a hole. The officers have access to an ablative vest, but no ablative helmet. Suspects utilizing laser based weaponry can exploit this by aiming for the head in order to make the vest less useful. The armor change that i feel is most helpful to security is the simple addition of an ablative helmet as it'll patch the hole in our defence in regards to laser based weaponry.


Edit: You want to add roundstart and latejoin quirks for officers so let me suggest one. The shove intent for officers should be different, in this intent they will not shove, but disarm. If an officer is disarming a suspect with a kitchen knife there is a chance the officer will grab the knife from them or make them drop it. It is similar to the krav maga gloves the warden wears which allows you to do this but i rather make them different. The krav maga gloves allows you to always take the weapon of the suspect whenever you succeed in a disarm but the base quirk for the most part should only make the suspect drop their weapon with a small chance of immediately having the weapon in your hands.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby Dr_bee » Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:55 pm #505358

If you are going to do security buffs do so via gear changes and not via traits. Adding mindshield firing pins to all their weapons would be a huge buff, and adding it to BATONS would be an even bigger one. Giving all security officers a death alarm implant would also be a significant buff to them without making them better overall in combat.

Basically make killing officers blow cover, and make them less of a loot pinata for antagonists.

These two changes would probably do wonders.

Also armor in general is weak as hell, and armor penetration is too common. Consider toning down armor pen, especially in ranged weapons, which already get their own special armor class anyway.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby PKPenguin321 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:01 pm #505359

Non-transferable job locked buffs like this are something we've done a really good job of avoiding over the years, and I hate how they've become more prevalent. The mime was an older one, then the chaplain became important in cult because it's thematic, then the chaplain became important in wizard too because ???, then job locked traitor items which I'll give a pass because at least that keeps some of the more disruptive traitor items out of most rounds.
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So why the fuck should we double down on this and give not only one guy but an entire department of people massive combat buffs for pretty much every single applicable combat scenario in the entire game??? This is a horrible idea that I think goes against a sort of unspoken design philosophy we've been actively holding to for years (see the bartender's drink sliding book or the warden's krav maga gloves for job specific abilities that are deliberately not job locked). Not to mention how it will make disguising as sec all but impossible, which will make real sec easy to tell apart, which will make it safer to give them all access and unconditional trust in a game that used to be about paranoia.

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Horrible idea. If you absolutey must go through with it, these abilities need to be communicated very clearly in-game and sec-traitors need to be re-enabled.
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Re: Security buffs

Postby The Respected Man » Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:10 pm #505363

PKPenguin321 wrote:Not to mention how it will make disguising as sec all but impossible, which will make real sec easy to tell apart, which will make it safer to give them all access and unconditional trust in a game that used to be about paranoia.

I agree with you and did not take this into consideration.
I'd like to change my suggestion about the officer's pin ability and disarm ability to instead be tied to their black security gloves, it will then be feasible to masquerade as a sec officer. It'll be odd to have the gloves also provide stam resistance so i suggest tossing that out the window.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby John_Gobbel » Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:18 pm #505365

Reading these replies makes me second guess what I've posted and I agree that the buffs in question should probably be transferable via gear.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby BeeSting12 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:59 pm #505369

Security could use a buff against nonantagonists, but I'd recommend the stun resistance be tied to an implant that can be found in the armory, or their gloves. That way, it's still possible to disguise as security for antagonists. Could make a book called the "Security Training Handbook" to transfer the abilities, and the ability to order more through cargo.

In full support of these two though (as long as they're transferrable):
When they have a cuffed person in a pull grab, they are not subject to any slowdowns
when they have a cuffed person in a pull grab, other people cannot pull that person away from the sec officer without breaking their pull first


Security armor could use a buff as well. There's currently no reason to choose riot gear over the default armor because the slowdown makes the melee resistance pointless. Possibly make riot armor give total immunity from melee attacks and thrown objects under a certain damage, but make it break after a certain amount of damage. The default armor just needs its values raised to the point where it's not made of wet cardboard.
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Re: Security buffs

Postby oranges » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:10 pm #505370

some good comments.

Lots of strawman comments though.

Lets try to stay focused on reality here.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby InsaneHyena » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:17 pm #505371

I don't believe that security officers signing up just for combat advantages and then fucking off is a valid, realistic concern. Security has started with powerful gear such as a baton and taser for years, so logically the same should have happened, but it didn't.
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Re: Security buffs

Postby Mickyan » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:21 pm #505373

Maybe it would be better if these abilities were split between the different parts of the security uniform, something that wouldn't inconvenience a security officer but would require a traitor to make a decision between like say, wearing sec armor for the no shove disarm or a hardsuit, or wear the security gloves for no-slowdown dragging instead of insulated gloves

If you use something like a skill-book or implant, it just becomes extra powercreep for antags to strive for, but this way you require making tradeoffs for it
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Re: Security buffs

Postby oranges » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:23 pm #505374

BeeSting12 wrote:Transferable

The problem with them being transferable is that these buffs are strong and I do not want them handed out willy nilly to all crew because it's warops for example.

halitosisman wrote:With player cooperation and knowledge, security players can already obtain the advantages you're proposing to give them.

The usual argument goes that player cooperation does not exist because most players are only focused on obtaining those advantages for themself to valid hunt, therefore this approach instead.

kryson wrote:Can't we just give them better equipment?

Dr_bee wrote:If you are going to do security buffs do so via gear changes and not via traits.

No, because the goal here is to make them better against greytiders, without making them loot pinatas even more than they already are.

Deedubya wrote:If you want to be able to give it to deputies but still have it somewhat balanced, make it an item you can dispense from one of the security vendors for 5k or 10k credits. If security wants to recruit deputies, they'll either have to deal with the fact that they're shittier than a regular officer, or cut into their department budget to get more competent officers.

This is an interesting idea, but does anyone know how much a security department can earn in a round? I dont', so I can't feasibly balance around it, and im not comfortable that economy is in a settled state.

The Respected Man wrote:I may be a sec main but you must understand that the fun i see in security is that it's difficult, risky

Yes, but I don't agree that it should be risky for a security officer to make an arrest against a greytider with his three friends. Antags have plenty more options than just stamina based stuns to deal with security officers, so I don't think this will adjust that balance markedly.

pkpenguin wrote:massive combat buffs for pretty much every single applicable combat scenario in the entire game???

The game is moving away from stuncombat, has been for some time, this is rediculous straw, the only reason I haven't deleted your entire comment is that parts of it are useful

pkpenguin wrote:Non-transferable job locked buffs like this are something we've done a really good job of avoiding over the years, and I hate how they've become more prevalent.

Yes, it's not as ideal as I would like, but the reality is that there's no other ways to make security effective against greytiders without also turning them into loot pinatas if they do get overpowered. There's no difference between this trait and a special mindlocked implant that only affects that user, and if you really care about the gameness of it, than I can add it that way instead.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby Dr_bee » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:27 pm #505376

oranges wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:If you are going to do security buffs do so via gear changes and not via traits.

No, because the goal here is to make them better against greytiders, without making them loot pinatas even more than they already are.


If you read my actual suggestion it was gear that made them less of a loot pinata. Death alarms and mindshield firing pins.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby oranges » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:30 pm #505379

none of those items confer the buffs that make security good against greytiders

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Re: Security buffs

Postby BeeSting12 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:34 pm #505380

Possibly make it transferable from an officer, dead or alive, but only have as many "combat learning" items as there are officers and somehow keep it on the officer until he wants to willingly transfer it or it's forcibly taken through a somewhat difficult process. (That way, the one doing it has to have decent planning to disguise as an officer). An implant is a good one but there's no way to transfer implants without help from others, which wouldn't work for a solo antag.
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Re: Security buffs

Postby Dr_bee » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:38 pm #505381

oranges wrote:none of those items confer the buffs that make security good against greytiders


They do make it less attractive to fight them however, as you no longer can push an officer against a wall and get a free tiding tool. If you added things like GPS tackers to sec gear it would also make finding tiders who steal sec gear to be a dick easier.

most of the issue I have VS tiders is them pushing me against a wall or table and stealing my gear as I attempt to arrest someone anyway.

Instead of direct combat buffs for officers make the incentive for screwing with them less appealing.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby oranges » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:46 pm #505382

I don't think most of them are doing it for the tiding tools personally, I think the vast majority are doing it because they can, and they know that security officers will struggle to deal with them if they're already trying to detain someone else.

However at the same time, it's still yet another bonus for fucking with sec officers.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby Dr_bee » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:51 pm #505383

oranges wrote:I don't think most of them are doing it for the tiding tools personally, I think the vast majority are doing it because they can, and they know that security officers will struggle to deal with them if they're already trying to detain someone else.

However at the same time, it's still yet another bonus for fucking with sec officers.


The loyalty implant is also a good thing to work around. If you make any gear that buffs sec officers, give it an implant check. For example you could give them toned down CQC or krav maga gloves with an implant check. You will find traitors with them, but they would need to obtain an implant from cargo or the brig first, which gives a transferable sec buff that isnt inherent to rolling sec.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby GuyonBroadway » Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:01 pm #505387

Now I thought about this and if yer gonna add intrinsic traits why stop at security?

Why not add some kind of basic skills system that the whole game can benefit from?


Like legit this could be an interesting way to make characters unique, like how in DnD you might build and act a character along a particular path, although not to the degree of DnD.

Notice how the chaplain usually roleplays more than most, just having SOMETHING to play around can put people in the right mindset.

Lets take another example, the detective doesn't get the punching and cuffing stuff by default but what if he was able to do some hard boiled combat dive! Jump a couple tiles going prone instantly and ducking behind a table! Revolver out, shootout time in the bar!

What if bartenders were immune to much of the negative effects of alcohol, sure they get drunk but no toxin damage or liver death so chugging them healing drinks is a good idea.

Heck why not make gym equipment play into this? Getting buff as fuck could make your punches a little stronger or take less stamina damage or run just a little faster? Before you know it the chaplain has started the cult of gains, the bartender is now legally not allowed to be consumed by children and the detective just backflipped over the chemistry desk to dodge a man with a lightsaber.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby PKPenguin321 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:02 pm #505388

oranges wrote:
pkpenguin wrote:massive combat buffs for pretty much every single applicable combat scenario in the entire game???

The game is moving away from stuncombat, has been for some time, this is rediculous straw, the only reason I haven't deleted your entire comment is that parts of it are useful

You specifically outlined that they would take 50% less STAMINA damage in your OP in addition to stuns. I never even specified stuns in my post. What on earth are you talking about?
Also, my post was in good faith. Just because I'm offering legitimate criticism to your suggestion (and I said "fuck" once) doesn't mean I'm "angry ranting," and I'm kind of offended that that's the angle you're trying to take. It feels like you're trying to spin me as an angry lunatic to dodge my criticism, frankly. If that's not what you're trying to do, I apologize, but it comes off that way.

oranges wrote:
pkpenguin wrote:Non-transferable job locked buffs like this are something we've done a really good job of avoiding over the years, and I hate how they've become more prevalent.

Yes, it's not as ideal as I would like, but the reality is that there's no other ways to make security effective against greytiders without also turning them into loot pinatas if they do get overpowered. There's no difference between this trait and a special mindlocked implant that only affects that user, and if you really care about the gameness of it, than I can add it that way instead.

I indeed do care a lot about the "gameness" of it, and would strongly prefer that. And again, regardless of all other aspects: Unless you make sure that these abilities are communicated very clearly in-game (such as a message or an on-mob animation when an officer resists stamina damage), it will never be acceptable.
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Re: Security buffs

Postby Sanator » Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:13 pm #505389

I think those changes would be very solid, considering most of sec is seen as loot piñatas (as discussed here) rather than a threat to greytiders. Security is already one of (if not the most) stressful jobs on the station and in desperate need of a buff against greytiders.

Considering the (awful) security vest: what if it made the wearer more resistant to shoves?

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Re: Security buffs

Postby oranges » Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:18 pm #505390

PKPenguin321 wrote:
oranges wrote:
pkpenguin wrote:massive combat buffs for pretty much every single applicable combat scenario in the entire game???

The game is moving away from stuncombat, has been for some time, this is rediculous straw, the only reason I haven't deleted your entire comment is that parts of it are useful

You specifically outlined that they would take 50% less STAMINA damage in your OP in addition to stuns. I never even specified stuns in my post. What on earth are you talking about?
Also, my post was in good faith. Just because I'm offering legitimate criticism to your suggestion (and I said "fuck" once) doesn't mean I'm "angry ranting," and I'm kind of offended that that's the angle you're trying to take. It feels like you're trying to spin me as an angry lunatic to dodge my criticism, frankly. If that's not what you're trying to do, I apologize, but it comes off that way.

oranges wrote:
pkpenguin wrote:Non-transferable job locked buffs like this are something we've done a really good job of avoiding over the years, and I hate how they've become more prevalent.

Yes, it's not as ideal as I would like, but the reality is that there's no other ways to make security effective against greytiders without also turning them into loot pinatas if they do get overpowered. There's no difference between this trait and a special mindlocked implant that only affects that user, and if you really care about the gameness of it, than I can add it that way instead.

I indeed do care a lot about the "gameness" of it, and would strongly prefer that. And again, regardless of all other aspects: Unless you make sure that these abilities are communicated very clearly in-game (such as a message or an on-mob animation when an officer resists stamina damage), it will never be acceptable.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby Shaps-cloud » Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:25 pm #505391

Maybe give sec officers special interactions with using handcuffs on a wounded/stam-wounded person gives you an automatic aggressive grab or something, so the officer can go for fisticuffs to weaken someone up before moving in for the actual arrest. You could also let them choose between punching primarily for stam damage vs punching for harm so they're not just running around beating people to death.

This would give officers a stamina based arrest method that gives them a boost over other unarmed crew that can't be stolen, while not affecting their balance against hard targets like cultists or nugies
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Re: Security buffs

Postby Timonk » Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:02 pm #505395

Now, the important question is: do lings get the ability from absorbing seccies?
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Re: Security buffs

Postby MisterPerson » Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:07 pm #505396

PKPenguin321 wrote:I indeed do care a lot about the "gameness" of it, and would strongly prefer that. And again, regardless of all other aspects: Unless you make sure that these abilities are communicated very clearly in-game (such as a message or an on-mob animation when an officer resists stamina damage), it will never be acceptable.


You're talking about every time someone attacks a sec officer to have a message like "[officer] shrugs off some of the effects of [whatever]." right? That seems kind of spammy and maybe better accomplished through a hint and player-to-player word of mouth.

EDIT: Unless you had another idea, ideally involving the onscreen mobs that the attacker is definitely looking at.
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Re: Security buffs

Postby Ty the Smonk » Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:13 pm #505397

Honestly I like most of the buffs, but I would only want this if stun batons got changed to stamina damage. Also I think that if we are going to buff the fuck out of sec then there should be a security trainee role where they don't get their buffs and have to play for like 5 hours or so of it to become a actual sec officer.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby PKPenguin321 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:30 pm #505402

MisterPerson wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:I indeed do care a lot about the "gameness" of it, and would strongly prefer that. And again, regardless of all other aspects: Unless you make sure that these abilities are communicated very clearly in-game (such as a message or an on-mob animation when an officer resists stamina damage), it will never be acceptable.


You're talking about every time someone attacks a sec officer to have a message like "[officer] shrugs off some of the effects of [whatever]." right? That seems kind of spammy and maybe better accomplished through a hint and player-to-player word of mouth.

EDIT: Unless you had another idea, ideally involving the onscreen mobs that the attacker is definitely looking at.

That, or as I said in the text you quoted, something like an on-mob animation (like them pulsing blue for a half second or something?). Player feedback is absolutely vital for this. A message on a cooldown might even be good. Even just a regular message would probably be okay, considering you only hit people with stamina damage maybe a couple of times per fight compared to how many times you attack them.
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PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:49 am.
Reason: rewrite your comment without the strawman comments about "turning sec into murderboners"

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Re: Security buffs

Postby Nodewire » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:36 am #505408

Seconding the whole "only apply these buffs with the baton change" opinion, however if those will not implemented then some changes should be made with this idea. I do think some security buffs should be welcome as sec doesn't actually have as much impact on the round and it's antags as it should. Mostly with how easily they can be tided. With this in mind, these proposed changes should still be toned down a tad.

Stamina resist should be about 30% to still give them a fighting chance without being too spongy. Grabbing a cuffed person should probably still give slowdown, just reduced for a tiny bit of 'muh realism''s sake and to allow for some interaction. Lowered stun times, stronger stam punches, and having to break an officers grab to pull cuffed people away are all good ideas in my eyes.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby oranges » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:49 am #505412

30% seems too low to be noticeable in terms of impact, that's on the order of 1-2 shots at most given how the current stam scaling all works.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby oranges » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:53 am #505413

PKPenguin321 wrote:
MisterPerson wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:I indeed do care a lot about the "gameness" of it, and would strongly prefer that. And again, regardless of all other aspects: Unless you make sure that these abilities are communicated very clearly in-game (such as a message or an on-mob animation when an officer resists stamina damage), it will never be acceptable.


You're talking about every time someone attacks a sec officer to have a message like "[officer] shrugs off some of the effects of [whatever]." right? That seems kind of spammy and maybe better accomplished through a hint and player-to-player word of mouth.

EDIT: Unless you had another idea, ideally involving the onscreen mobs that the attacker is definitely looking at.

That, or as I said in the text you quoted, something like an on-mob animation (like them pulsing blue for a half second or something?). Player feedback is absolutely vital for this. A message on a cooldown might even be good. Even just a regular message would probably be okay, considering you only hit people with stamina damage maybe a couple of times per fight compared to how many times you attack them.

this is no different to stims or other implants that antags already have that give zero user feedback

I don't agree that's its "absolutely vital", but it would be nice to have.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby deedubya » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:58 am #505414

I was a bit sleepy when I wrote my idea earlier, so let me expand on it a little and perhaps make it a bit easier to implement as well: Make the item that grants you the security buffs basically function like a martial arts scroll, and have every security officer spawn with it in their backpack. Call it the "Nanotrasen Combat Training Manual" or something to that effect. I'm not at all familiar with the underlying code, but this may be easier to implement than forcing the state on all roundstart/latejoin security officers. As well, have a limited number of them be purchasable at high cost in one of the security vendors. None of the security vendors are accessible by anyone that doesn't have proper security access, so a tator head with a budget card can't just nab one with their brig access without trespassing.

This is an interesting idea, but does anyone know how much a security department can earn in a round? I dont', so I can't feasibly balance around it, and im not comfortable that economy is in a settled state.

Unfortunately, I've almost never played HOS since we shifted from coins to credits and departmental budgets, so I can't actually provide data for that. If their budget increases at the same rate as other departments(sans cargo) however, I believe that security having somewhere in the realm of 20k-30k credits on the budget an hour in would be considered normal.
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Re: Security buffs

Postby crashmatusow » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:16 am #505417

Why not tie it to Loyalty implants? Seems like a very corporate security thing to do.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby oranges » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:34 am #505418

Im trying to limit distribution so that HoS or Warden doesn't just hand them out like candy to everyone.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby deedubya » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:39 am #505419

oranges wrote:Im trying to limit distribution so that HoS or Warden doesn't just hand them out like candy to everyone.

Short of a station wide emergency, 95% of HOS/Warden players I see don't even hand out restricted shit to their own security officers, let alone Johnny Greytide or anyone else willy-nilly. Not that I'm saying these should be roundstart items just laying in the armory, mind you. There's a reason I proposed hiding it behind something that scales with how long the round has lasted.
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Re: Security buffs

Postby SkeletalElite » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:50 am #505422

I might be a biased sec main, but sec buffs really excite me. I think in the process of moving away from stun based combat has kind of negatively impacted security and made them worse then they used to be, more so than the antags. I think as we move away from stun based combat thats only going to be MORE prevalent.

If you want a way to transfer it but not make it so everyone gets it, this could be done through an implant that sec starts with. There would only be 3 or 4 spare of these implants in the armory and more could be ordered from cargo for a significant price (so that people don't choose to order these instead of guns vs nukies)

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Re: Security buffs

Postby py01 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:56 am #505423

If security becomes extremely disarm resistant, you'll probably see a sharp rise in body throwing, assistants building glass tables in the halls, and water puddles for the disarm/stun chance. Those do require more effort/skill to pull of than the typical disarm, but assistant mains will still likely run circles over your average security.

Also, a lot more improvised weapons are going to get made. Currently the only one that is quick to make and can reasonably duel an officer is the stunprod, you probably won't see most of the others getting made because they're not useful against someone who has hard stuns.

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Re: Security buffs

Postby bigfatbananacyclops » Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:11 am #505424

i quite honestly think they should just get a second category of advanced nonlethal gear, and so it doesnt get abused roundstart, there should be an activation to access it.

Officers are not gonna be able to stop an entire army of cultists always using disablers or the new batons, it encourages the use of more lethals.

The cat 2 could contain tranq darts which contains sleepy chems to sleep the target, a riot SMG maybe even as well. They could get gas sleep grenades or more teargas, teargas is actually useful when cultists are gathered up somewhere, they usually have masks but it blinds and affects some, but right now its impossible due to their numbers, the best option is to go lethal, i think going lethal should come in the point where they are too strong and they need to be put down in a fast way, but if we add a second category of nonlethal gear i think it could improve security into becoming more tactical to be honest.

Teamwork as well, its usually never seen but i think it can be encouraged, back when i used to play shadowlings, it was very important to never go alone, you could get catched alone by the slings with their glare, but if you went with a partner that would never happen, they would help you out and drag you away, however i never tried tg's slings so i dont know how unbalanced it was here, but it was super nice to play against them, especially in big maints.

i think there's many options for this one.
Last edited by bigfatbananacyclops on Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

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